Jayco al-'Ula and its GreenEdge predecessors

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

I'll have to redo my team for the Vuelta - Cort and Plaza taken off the extended start list, while Kluge has been added.

All I can say is ..... if this 3 GC men to the same GT turns out to be the major miscalculation it promises to be; then the person responsible should be fired as high as the moon !! The evidence was clear at the end of the Tour that SY was "running on fumes" and it was made patently obvious at San Sebastian when he was unable to go with the moves. Total and utter lunacy !!

Haig and Verona as the sole climbing support .... another WTF unless one of Chaves & SY are openly willing to ride as domestiques and its questionable as to how effective a "running on empty" SY would be no matter his desire to be of use. Unless Plaza is ill, I cannot fathom that one as I'd have him in front of Verona in any case and would strengthen TTT whereas Verona = complete liability

No problems with Bewley or J-J but not happy about either Hayman or Tuft who will essentially be passengers once the road slopes even moderately upwards. Both grand servants but both now very much in the zone of diminishing returns and capacity when it comes to GTs.

Sorry Orica hierarchy but this promises to be more National Lampoons' Cycling Vacation than a half way serious GT campaign

Would far prefer Hepburn in for Tuft ... more than covers off the TTT angle and far greater utility over wider range of terrain. Kluge ??? Unless there is a sprinter in the line-up then he has 0 business being within the same post code as the Vuelta team. There is no sprinter .... please explain ?

I am staggered that you would have Bewley, Hayman and Tuft in the same team - Would have been better to replace one with Cort who can win a sprint stage and has utility or even use Mezgec.

Think Hepburn missed out because he is a protected rider at the Bink Bank Tour which is an excellent chance for this team oriented rider.

I wonder if Cort and Plaza have been taken off the start list because they won't be at Orica in 2018 - Who knows but some teams take this approach in late season.

My major excitement will be to see how Haig performs - I suspect he will end up a better GC rider than the 2 yates.

Your response is identical to mine re Bewley, Tuft & Hayman ... can have have 2 but not all 3.

Fair point re Hepburn who probably deserves some opportunities for himself.

Would be interesting to see the reasoning re Cort & Plaza. Maybe it IS contracts .... but in the past Orica hasn't been "narky" over this. Plaza is 37 so it is plausible that he may be retiring.

Would have had 0 issues whatsoever having Mezgec in the line-up

It WILL be very interesting to see how they structure Haig's program next season (assuming of course that he isn't lured away !). He's ridden some reasonably high GC finishes in WT one weekers during this season so it may not be out of the question that he may be a 2nd protected rider at a few of these races next season ... maybe 1-2 leader opportunities.

Whilst I think that they will want to keep both Yates; it may be the case that we may see at least one go elsewhere at the end of next season (next contract expiry) and Haig be the in-house promotion. We still need to see how he can climb on a day-in/day-out basis but whilst no specialist TTer, I would venture that he is superior in this discipline to all 3 current GC men.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

I'll have to redo my team for the Vuelta - Cort and Plaza taken off the extended start list, while Kluge has been added.

All I can say is ..... if this 3 GC men to the same GT turns out to be the major miscalculation it promises to be; then the person responsible should be fired as high as the moon !! The evidence was clear at the end of the Tour that SY was "running on fumes" and it was made patently obvious at San Sebastian when he was unable to go with the moves. Total and utter lunacy !!

Haig and Verona as the sole climbing support .... another WTF unless one of Chaves & SY are openly willing to ride as domestiques and its questionable as to how effective a "running on empty" SY would be no matter his desire to be of use. Unless Plaza is ill, I cannot fathom that one as I'd have him in front of Verona in any case and would strengthen TTT whereas Verona = complete liability

No problems with Bewley or J-J but not happy about either Hayman or Tuft who will essentially be passengers once the road slopes even moderately upwards. Both grand servants but both now very much in the zone of diminishing returns and capacity when it comes to GTs.

Sorry Orica hierarchy but this promises to be more National Lampoons' Cycling Vacation than a half way serious GT campaign

Would far prefer Hepburn in for Tuft ... more than covers off the TTT angle and far greater utility over wider range of terrain. Kluge ??? Unless there is a sprinter in the line-up then he has 0 business being within the same post code as the Vuelta team. There is no sprinter .... please explain ?

I am staggered that you would have Bewley, Hayman and Tuft in the same team - Would have been better to replace one with Cort who can win a sprint stage and has utility or even use Mezgec.

Think Hepburn missed out because he is a protected rider at the Bink Bank Tour which is an excellent chance for this team oriented rider.

I wonder if Cort and Plaza have been taken off the start list because they won't be at Orica in 2018 - Who knows but some teams take this approach in late season.

My major excitement will be to see how Haig performs - I suspect he will end up a better GC rider than the 2 yates.

Your response is identical to mine re Bewley, Tuft & Hayman ... can have have 2 but not all 3.

Fair point re Hepburn who probably deserves some opportunities for himself.

Would be interesting to see the reasoning re Cort & Plaza. Maybe it IS contracts .... but in the past Orica hasn't been "narky" over this. Plaza is 37 so it is plausible that he may be retiring.

Would have had 0 issues whatsoever having Mezgec in the line-up

It WILL be very interesting to see how they structure Haig's program next season (assuming of course that he isn't lured away !). He's ridden some reasonably high GC finishes in WT one weekers during this season so it may not be out of the question that he may be a 2nd protected rider at a few of these races next season ... maybe 1-2 leader opportunities.

Whilst I think that they will want to keep both Yates; it may be the case that we may see at least one go elsewhere at the end of next season (next contract expiry) and Haig be the in-house promotion. We still need to see how he can climb on a day-in/day-out basis but whilst no specialist TTer, I would venture that he is superior in this discipline to all 3 current GC men.

Haig is a decent TT'er for a GC rider - Definite progression for him to target GC at least in two one week stage racer next year - Depending on schedules something like Pais Vasco/Tour De Suisse races - Agree that one of the Yates will leave at the end of their current contract - I'd be surprised if Haig leaves Orica - Very surprised.

Interesting that Jason Bakker who manages Evans, Power and Ewan has Lucas Hamilton on his books.

 

[dirkprovin]

Yes, I think Haig WOULD be best served staying where he is. Might he be given the nod for TDU .... or will the main game be fattening up Ewan with plenty of WT points to make him all the more tempting for WT teams needing those points for survival ? Evil thinking perhaps .... but this is a hard business.

Will be interesting to see which Yates stays/goes ... not out of the question that both may go but it probably has reached the point where their paths need to diverge. Might it be a case of who feels most at home at Orica .... or who gets the most attractive offer to leave ?

I know enough about Bakker in my professional capacity to not hold him in the highest repute. A long way from being the worst going around in his field in AUS .... mind you, there are/have been more than a few in his fraternity who should be doing time. Will be interesting to see where Hamilton rides next year.

 

[yaco]

Re:

Yes, I think Haig WOULD be best served staying where he is. Might he be given the nod for TDU .... or will the main game be fattening up Ewan with plenty of WT points to make him all the more tempting for WT teams needing those points for survival ? Evil thinking perhaps .... but this is a hard business.

Will be interesting to see which Yates stays/goes ... not out of the question that both may go but it probably has reached the point where their paths need to diverge. Might it be a case of who feels most at home at Orica .... or who gets the most attractive offer to leave ?

I know enough about Bakker in my professional capacity to not hold him in the highest repute. A long way from being the worst going around in his field in AUS .... mind you, there are/have been more than a few in his fraternity who should be doing time. Will be interesting to see where Hamilton rides next year.

Keukeliere is confirmed as leaving - Orica wanted him to stay but guess the lure of riding for a Belgium team is tempting - Apparently Juul-Jensen has re-signed for 2 years - Reading that Gerrans has been linked to Sky, Etix and DD - First two will be surprising choices but you never know.

Interesting that Orica has Power and Plaza in the break today in Poland - They must have a plan - Mezgec DNF yesterday so i guess he is riding the European championship on Sunday.

Team management is very protective of their young GC riders - It will need to be pushed by the Yates to leave.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Yes, I think Haig WOULD be best served staying where he is. Might he be given the nod for TDU .... or will the main game be fattening up Ewan with plenty of WT points to make him all the more tempting for WT teams needing those points for survival ? Evil thinking perhaps .... but this is a hard business.

Will be interesting to see which Yates stays/goes ... not out of the question that both may go but it probably has reached the point where their paths need to diverge. Might it be a case of who feels most at home at Orica .... or who gets the most attractive offer to leave ?

I know enough about Bakker in my professional capacity to not hold him in the highest repute. A long way from being the worst going around in his field in AUS .... mind you, there are/have been more than a few in his fraternity who should be doing time. Will be interesting to see where Hamilton rides next year.

Keukeliere is confirmed as leaving - Orica wanted him to stay but guess the lure of riding for a Belgium team is tempting - Apparently Juul-Jensen has re-signed for 2 years - Reading that Gerrans has been linked to Sky, Etix and DD - First two will be surprising choices but you never know.

Interesting that Orica has Power and Plaza in the break today in Poland - They must have a plan - Mezgec DNF yesterday so i guess he is riding the European championship on Sunday.

Team management is very protective of their young GC riders - It will need to be pushed by the Yates to leave.

It would not have been a "snap" decision on Keukeleire's part given his roots at the team and that he has been happy at Orica .... but if you have "an offer too good to refuse" ?

J-J ... fair decision. His first season was perhaps anonymous but he has been legitimately valuable this year and offers a good deal of versatility.

Gerrans ?? Postal & QST make absolutely zero sense unless it is to an off-bike role. DD ..... maybe that has some mileage

Yates ?? Orica will most certainly look to keep them but if it comes down to $$$, they may not be in pole position. Granted, that has not appeared to be a pivotal factor with them so far but maybe now it may take a more prominent position. May it be that Orica can comfortably accomodate one (including pay-rise) but both on increased $$$$ be less viable given other prominent riders may also be coming off contract at the same time ?

 

[dirkprovin]

Well, Haig has already scored himself a GC top10 at a WT one-weeker with his 8th in Poland; was looking to be on the cards as long as he could back up after his stage win and significant time "claw-back" yesterday.

WILL be interesting to see what market interest he may attract after this .... although he should already have been on certain team's radar screens. Can't see Orica letting him go unless he's lured primarily by the $$$$ and they are priced out

 

[yaco]

Doubt very much Haig will price Orica out of the market - Actually think Haig could have won today's stage if he had freedom - Convinced Orica is trolling with their start list for the Vuelta - Verona is named but not riding Poland or the Bink Bank tour.

 

[liamito]

Re:

I also don't understand the SY selection for the Vuelta.

Let's wait and see. Two weeks to go, two weeks prior Giro he also dropped out rather unexpectedly.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Doubt very much Haig will price Orica out of the market - Actually think Haig could have won today's stage if he had freedom - Convinced Orica is trolling with their start list for the Vuelta - Verona is named but not riding Poland or the Bink Bank tour.

I certainly DO home they are "trolling" or laying a very false trail.

Re Haig, it really would not surprise if some team DIDN'T throw a distinctly tasty offer Haig's way as he is certainly giving out some interesting signals re GC potential, at least at 1 week level. Not mega $$$ but serious enough for a rider of his experience. I will agree that Orica should be able to able to compete given they got a large % of their mega dollar signings out of the way last year and Cort & Keukeleire leaving will free up some unless the Nieve & Trentin deals were major raids on the cash-box

 

[yaco]

Trentin confirmed to Orica - I suspect this will be the best of the new signings - Can win a classic and also help Ewan in the sprints.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Trentin confirmed to Orica - I suspect this will be the best of the new signings - Can win a classic and also help Ewan in the sprints.

Trentin certainly has significant potential to be a valauble addition to the team with regards to classics. However, M.White continues to worry me with his pronouncements ...... and his capacity to put forward completely conflicting agendas for the team.

Orica has been clearly evolving into a GC centred team for GTs and most major 1 weekers ....signings like Nieve make sense .. tick that box. There is still scope for improving the cobbles crew ... so Trentin ticks that box. All fine up till now .....then White the numpty piously pronounces that they are also seeking to develop a sprint train for effing Ewan !!!

For which damned races ?? To hoover up the early season wins and a nice tempting swag of WT points, he's not really going to need a train. What then ?? Unless Mr White has been indulging in those halucinogenic mushrooms; surely he is NOT suggesting you attempt to squeeze in a sprint train alongside a GC grouping inside a GT team of 8 men ?? Yes, take him to a few 2nd level one weekers but I'm battling to see more than 1-2 one day races where you'd even consider such an undertaking.

Paging Mr Gerry Ryan ...... time to start shopping round for a new team director !!

 

[yaco]

Cort would have won today's stage if he kept Docker's wheel - A victory gone missing.

 

[yaco]

IT appears Chaves is definitely riding the Vuelta - Just need S.Yates confirmed and it will be a wild race.

 

[swuzzlebubble]

Re:

IT appears Chaves is definitely riding the Vuelta - Just need S.Yates confirmed and it will be a wild race.

Is Stephens the DS?

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

IT appears Chaves is definitely riding the Vuelta - Just need S.Yates confirmed and it will be a wild race.

Is Stephens the DS?

Would certainly hope that the latter is the case ....... and meanwhile M.White is packed off to Antarctica (with zero access to the media) for the remainder of the season.

The only news I wish to read re SY is that the team are granting him some well earned "time off" for R&R. The guy is "running on empty" .... give him a break !

 

[claude cat]

Re:

IT appears Chaves is definitely riding the Vuelta - Just need S.Yates confirmed and it will be a wild race.

Yeh Canty reported in his Andorra ride (on strava) overnight that he was following Chaves all over the place.

 

[yaco]

Tuft signs a one contract Extension with Orica - Certain he'll ride the Vuelta.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re:

Tuft signs a one contract Extension with Orica - Certain he'll ride the Vuelta.

Saw the announcement ..... and cannot help having conflicting thoughts about it.

On one hand, it can legitimately be seen as both indicative and a reward for his undeniably valued and valuable service to the team over the past 6 years.

On the other hand, I cannot help feeling that this may however NOT be ultimately be in either party's best interests and that by agreeing to this additional year; his age and lessening powers may be more and more in focus and he ends up NOT leaving the sport with the full level of dignity that he truly deserves.

 

[claude cat]

Really surprised that Tuft gets another year.

 

[yaco]

Re:

Really surprised that Tuft gets another year.

On form not surprised - Surprised in the sense that he may want to stop cycling at 40.

 

[claude cat]

Re: Re:

Really surprised that Tuft gets another year.

On form not surprised - Surprised in the sense that he may want to stop cycling at 40.

On form, fair enough, but I figured they'd want to bring some new blood into the team.
There's no doubt he can (and does) perform an important role for the team.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Really surprised that Tuft gets another year.

On form not surprised - Surprised in the sense that he may want to stop cycling at 40.

Sorry but what form is that ??? Ok, he won the CAN ITT title but that really isn't particularly competitive. He did ride a few long stints on the front of the peleton on some early stages of the Giro but for the vast majority there was nothing differentiating him from any other member of the grupetto.

I'm just not seeing any real justification as to why his actual performances warrant another year and that his job cannot be done better by other riders with wider skillsets and greater versatility. I hope this extra year does work out satisfactorarily for both parties as he truly does warrant "going out" with the respect that he legitimately warrants but I cannot help thinking sentiment may have supplanted reason in this case. Along with some other recent M.White statements; I'm somewhat less than convinced of the quality of some of the recent decision making

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Really surprised that Tuft gets another year.

On form not surprised - Surprised in the sense that he may want to stop cycling at 40.

Sorry but what form is that ??? Ok, he won the CAN ITT title but that really isn't particularly competitive. He did ride a few long stints on the front of the peleton on some early stages of the Giro but for the vast majority there was nothing differentiating him from any other member of the grupetto.

I'm just not seeing any real justification as to why his actual performances warrant another year and that his job cannot be done better by other riders with wider skillsets and greater versatility. I hope this extra year does work out satisfactorarily for both parties as he truly does warrant "going out" with the respect that he legitimately warrants but I cannot help thinking sentiment may have supplanted reason in this case. Along with some other recent M.White statements; I'm somewhat less than convinced of the quality of some of the recent decision making

Tuft did a power of work at the Giro in the stages which suited his capabilities - I have seen nothing to show he is slowing down.

 

[dirkprovin]

Re: Re:

Really surprised that Tuft gets another year.

On form not surprised - Surprised in the sense that he may want to stop cycling at 40.

Sorry but what form is that ??? Ok, he won the CAN ITT title but that really isn't particularly competitive. He did ride a few long stints on the front of the peleton on some early stages of the Giro but for the vast majority there was nothing differentiating him from any other member of the grupetto.

I'm just not seeing any real justification as to why his actual performances warrant another year and that his job cannot be done better by other riders with wider skillsets and greater versatility. I hope this extra year does work out satisfactorarily for both parties as he truly does warrant "going out" with the respect that he legitimately warrants but I cannot help thinking sentiment may have supplanted reason in this case. Along with some other recent M.White statements; I'm somewhat less than convinced of the quality of some of the recent decision making

Tuft did a power of work at the Giro in the stages which suited his capabilities - I have seen nothing to show he is slowing down.

Just 98% of his 2016 season. Yes, he did some big turns at this years Giro but so did/can others .... what specifically differentiaties him from others ? I fully accept that his engine did set him apart for at least the first three (maybe even four) seasons of Orica ..... but I just don't see that as being sustainable now.

Please don't get me wrong; I really do respect the guy and honour all the hard unrelenting toil he has put in for the team ..... in many ways, its not wanting to see this dminished by seeing him visibly no longer coping that has me wary of this decision.

 

[StryderHells]

@Dirk

It's not just performances out on the road that makes someone useful as a team member, there might be a heap that Tuft adds to team cohesion that we simply don't see.