Suggest Hayman needs to retire at the end of the year - Has ridden few gt's in his career and struggled big time in this year's TDF - With Orica's increased focus on GC's you need a rider like Hayman to ride a good quality GT - I'd be more inclined to keep both Tuft and Plaza for another year as their performances inn the Giro were top notch.
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Re:
I'm onside with that. Hayman has never really been a GT man; maybe I'd be open to perhaps riding the cobbles then retire after P-R but that's probably as flexible as I would be willing to be.
Tuft .... he did some big long turn on the front at the Giro; arguably needlessly. Not sold on another year but nor am I dead against it; he's been an amazing servant for the team and you'd prefer his exit be with the full respect he deserves.
Plaza .... if he's willing to go round again then most certainly; his ride at the Giro was top class.
Will be very interested to find out who, if any, they have lined up out of the U23s who may be coming "on the market" before making further calls on who may be staying/leaving but of those going "off contract" from the Tour line-up; I'm thinking they will not be giving up Keukeleire (unless he receives an offer to good to refuse) & if Albasini is still wanting to go round again, they'll most likely offer him at least another season.
yaco said:
I'm onside with that. Hayman has never really been a GT man; maybe I'd be open to perhaps riding the cobbles then retire after P-R but that's probably as flexible as I would be willing to be.
Tuft .... he did some big long turn on the front at the Giro; arguably needlessly. Not sold on another year but nor am I dead against it; he's been an amazing servant for the team and you'd prefer his exit be with the full respect he deserves.
Plaza .... if he's willing to go round again then most certainly; his ride at the Giro was top class.
Will be very interested to find out who, if any, they have lined up out of the U23s who may be coming "on the market" before making further calls on who may be staying/leaving but of those going "off contract" from the Tour line-up; I'm thinking they will not be giving up Keukeleire (unless he receives an offer to good to refuse) & if Albasini is still wanting to go round again, they'll most likely offer him at least another season.
S.Yates confirmed he and Adam are riding the Vuelta. It will be an interesting team.
Think certainties are
2 X Yates
Kreuziger
Chaves
Plaza
Bewley
Tuft
Other riders in the mix are Verona, Cort, Haig, Juul-Jensen, Mezgec and Kluge.
I suspect Orica won't take a sprinter.
Think certainties are
2 X Yates
Kreuziger
Chaves
Plaza
Bewley
Tuft
Other riders in the mix are Verona, Cort, Haig, Juul-Jensen, Mezgec and Kluge.
I suspect Orica won't take a sprinter.
Re:
If they're taking both Yates & Chaves then its the Orica hierarchy that need to be "tested" rather than their riders ...... its completely ludicrous !! AY .... should be fresh at least after post Giro break. Chaves .... fair enough given he sat up for the bulk of the Tour but SY had to go pretty deep at this Tour and is almost certainly to be running on empty before halfway in the Vuelta given he had quite a deal of racing leading in unless he's just going to ride in service of others.
Kreuziger ..... maybe but I'd perhaps be looking at giving him a few opportunities to ride for himself at some of the later one day races given he's basically been riding the rest of the season in service of others.
Plaza - definitely
Other mountain help ? Haig would get my nod. Verona ... maybe but he wasn't stellar at Giro. Not sure Howson's tour showings were actually indicative of actual form or did they decide early on that since Chaves wasn't going to be a factor, they'd ease Howson up as well/only call on him on specific stages ? Could be wrong but it was noticeable even on early flat stages that he was being "sat up" when he could've easily rode in with the bunch. Maybe he could be backing up for Vuelta ?
If they're taking all 3 GC men then they're won't be a sprinter/quick guy unless they look perhaps at Mezgec who has some overall utility ... but that's an outside chance at best. If they brought Cort then they'd probably need to take someone like Mezgec along which means either one less mountain support or flatland grunt.
Bewley ... I'd be sending him.
Tuft ... no. Rode well at Giro but its going to be an ask for a 40y.o to do 2 GTs per year in service of a serious GC campaign as against when you'll have 'days off' like in the past. Would prefer Hepburn.
Probably Juul-Jensen gets my final nod unless they look at a quick guy.
yaco said:
If they're taking both Yates & Chaves then its the Orica hierarchy that need to be "tested" rather than their riders ...... its completely ludicrous !! AY .... should be fresh at least after post Giro break. Chaves .... fair enough given he sat up for the bulk of the Tour but SY had to go pretty deep at this Tour and is almost certainly to be running on empty before halfway in the Vuelta given he had quite a deal of racing leading in unless he's just going to ride in service of others.
Kreuziger ..... maybe but I'd perhaps be looking at giving him a few opportunities to ride for himself at some of the later one day races given he's basically been riding the rest of the season in service of others.
Plaza - definitely
Other mountain help ? Haig would get my nod. Verona ... maybe but he wasn't stellar at Giro. Not sure Howson's tour showings were actually indicative of actual form or did they decide early on that since Chaves wasn't going to be a factor, they'd ease Howson up as well/only call on him on specific stages ? Could be wrong but it was noticeable even on early flat stages that he was being "sat up" when he could've easily rode in with the bunch. Maybe he could be backing up for Vuelta ?
If they're taking all 3 GC men then they're won't be a sprinter/quick guy unless they look perhaps at Mezgec who has some overall utility ... but that's an outside chance at best. If they brought Cort then they'd probably need to take someone like Mezgec along which means either one less mountain support or flatland grunt.
Bewley ... I'd be sending him.
Tuft ... no. Rode well at Giro but its going to be an ask for a 40y.o to do 2 GTs per year in service of a serious GC campaign as against when you'll have 'days off' like in the past. Would prefer Hepburn.
Probably Juul-Jensen gets my final nod unless they look at a quick guy.
Orica team for Poland
Bewley
Ewan
Plaza
A.Yates
Haig
Power
Mezgec
Ewan should win every flat stage if he can defeat Sagan.A. Yates should finish top 5 in the GC.
Bewley
Ewan
Plaza
A.Yates
Haig
Power
Mezgec
Ewan should win every flat stage if he can defeat Sagan.A. Yates should finish top 5 in the GC.
Saw this piece in the Guardian last week. Arguably just a "colour piece" but it does answer the question with regards to Orica's budget; exceeds AUD 23mill; (EUR 15-16 mill/USD18.25 mill)
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jul/21/orica-scott-24-hours-on-the-road-with-a-tour-de-france-team
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jul/21/orica-scott-24-hours-on-the-road-with-a-tour-de-france-team
Re:
Budget is a touch bigger than expected and i guess would be mid-range in the peleton.
Looks like Edmondson is riding Ride London next week as Ewan and Cort are at the Tour of Poland.
Have no idea who will lead Orica in the two Canadian races.
Have already picked my 2018 TDF team.
dirkprovin said:
Budget is a touch bigger than expected and i guess would be mid-range in the peleton.
Looks like Edmondson is riding Ride London next week as Ewan and Cort are at the Tour of Poland.
Have no idea who will lead Orica in the two Canadian races.
Have already picked my 2018 TDF team.
Re: Re:
I'll be waiting until I see all 3 GT routes .....AND who's been signed/re-signed/gone before I venture down that path
yaco said:
I'll be waiting until I see all 3 GT routes .....AND who's been signed/re-signed/gone before I venture down that path
Re: Re:
I'll give you the team
A.Yates
Kreuziger
Nieve
Hepburn
Impey
Durbridge
Juul-Jensen
Keukeliere
dirkprovin said:
I'll give you the team
A.Yates
Kreuziger
Nieve
Hepburn
Impey
Durbridge
Juul-Jensen
Keukeliere
Re: Re:
At this point, the outlay on the development team wou;dn't account for much given they've barely raced and I think there's some significant Chinese money bankrolling. Women's team = maybe 2-3 million max , would be interested to find out the AIS portion.
StryderHells said:
At this point, the outlay on the development team wou;dn't account for much given they've barely raced and I think there's some significant Chinese money bankrolling. Women's team = maybe 2-3 million max , would be interested to find out the AIS portion.
So it appears that both Cort and Keukeliere are leaving which weakens the Classics squad, notwithstanding the recruitment of Trentin who is some chance to win a classic - Hayman will also be gone in the next 12 months and its unlikely Docker will be round, so this part of the squad will need regeneration. Interesting times ahead.
Seems like Orica may only have 5 or 6 riders remaining from their original squad.
Seems like Orica may only have 5 or 6 riders remaining from their original squad.
Re:
Interesting !! Not surprised that he WOULD be fielding some legitimate offers and given he has been a regular in the BEL World RR teams in recent years; he is clearly regarded by at least some BEL cycling folk. Would probably have to have been quite a tasty offer in order for him to make the move as he's been good for Orica just as Orica has been good for him
yaco said:
Interesting !! Not surprised that he WOULD be fielding some legitimate offers and given he has been a regular in the BEL World RR teams in recent years; he is clearly regarded by at least some BEL cycling folk. Would probably have to have been quite a tasty offer in order for him to make the move as he's been good for Orica just as Orica has been good for him
With regards to individual Tour performances:
SY: rode smart and managed to control any losses; was willing to have a few calculated attacks (one paid/one didnt)
Kreuziger: solid
Chaves: was never realistically going to be competitive given his lead-in. Plus side was getting in the hard race miles. Was pleasing to see him pitch in when called upon on the crosswinds stage
Impey: finished the Tour strongly, not just with ITT but on some of the mountain stages
Hayman: should be his last GT
Keukeleire: made a tactical mistake on the st19 lead-in to finish. Very strong support for SY on crosswinds stage. Good allround Tour
Durbridge: over before it began
Albasini: useful on occaisions. Infiltrated a couple of breaks, only one that stuck to the finish. Not sure of his GT future should he continue; would keep him for one-dayers and one weekers
Howson: not sure what was the story with him ? Was it form or was there some rethinking towards Vuelta going on ? I noticed that on a number of the early flat stages, he was rolling in a couple of minutes down when you would expect that someone with his engine would be holding onto the peleton. Had me thinking ... are they plotting to send him up the road in a break (ala Vuelta) but we never saw this. It was only later in the Tour that we saw him as one of the last support riders for SY. Was it form .... or did they decide to make a re-set for Vuelta with Chaves ? Just a thought ..... quite possibly a quite erroneous one !
SY: rode smart and managed to control any losses; was willing to have a few calculated attacks (one paid/one didnt)
Kreuziger: solid
Chaves: was never realistically going to be competitive given his lead-in. Plus side was getting in the hard race miles. Was pleasing to see him pitch in when called upon on the crosswinds stage
Impey: finished the Tour strongly, not just with ITT but on some of the mountain stages
Hayman: should be his last GT
Keukeleire: made a tactical mistake on the st19 lead-in to finish. Very strong support for SY on crosswinds stage. Good allround Tour
Durbridge: over before it began
Albasini: useful on occaisions. Infiltrated a couple of breaks, only one that stuck to the finish. Not sure of his GT future should he continue; would keep him for one-dayers and one weekers
Howson: not sure what was the story with him ? Was it form or was there some rethinking towards Vuelta going on ? I noticed that on a number of the early flat stages, he was rolling in a couple of minutes down when you would expect that someone with his engine would be holding onto the peleton. Had me thinking ... are they plotting to send him up the road in a break (ala Vuelta) but we never saw this. It was only later in the Tour that we saw him as one of the last support riders for SY. Was it form .... or did they decide to make a re-set for Vuelta with Chaves ? Just a thought ..... quite possibly a quite erroneous one !
Howson is an interesting one, unless he was unwell early in the race the only reason he would of been dropped on the early flat stages is if it were team orders. He did start to show up a little bit late in the race but I do along with the thinking that he was told to hold back and refocus for the Vuelta as the team looks ro be going into the race with a squad that cause some mischief.
Orica team for Ride London
Cort
Edmondson
Impey
Hayman
Docker
Kluge
Hepburn
Cort will be the protected rider in the likelihood of a bunch sprint - Would like Impey to get into the break and make it a tough race.
Interesting to see when Durbridge returns from injury - He along with Keukeliere are good options for the Eneco Tour.
Interesting that BMC is stopping their development team this year. Would like the UCI to introduce a rule that if a WT team has a CT team, the WT team gets first call on the riders service - After all a Neo-Pro contract is for two years and then riders can change teams.
Cort
Edmondson
Impey
Hayman
Docker
Kluge
Hepburn
Cort will be the protected rider in the likelihood of a bunch sprint - Would like Impey to get into the break and make it a tough race.
Interesting to see when Durbridge returns from injury - He along with Keukeliere are good options for the Eneco Tour.
Interesting that BMC is stopping their development team this year. Would like the UCI to introduce a rule that if a WT team has a CT team, the WT team gets first call on the riders service - After all a Neo-Pro contract is for two years and then riders can change teams.
Re:
Frankly, Chaves was worse than expected. Nobody expected him to be GC competitive, but what he showed in break was poor given his standard.dirkprovin said:
How is this related to performance?
Never there with Simon in the mountains. Poor performance. If he had the performance to be there with Simon at the mountains, undoubtedly he would be there at least sometimes IMHO. To let Simon ride alone would be downright stupid given you have rider capable of staying with him; possibly costing few GC places - distances were very small and little difference (such as protection of your leader) could decide on quite a few GC places.
So teams are busily preparing their rosters for 2017
At this stage the in's seem to be
Nieve ( confirmed )
Trentin ( strong rumour )
C.Meyer ( strong rumour
Out's
Keukeliere ( confirmed )
Cort ( rumour )
Gerrans ( rumour )
Riders off-contract
Tuft - Apparently its his call.
Hayman - Read Tuft
Albasini - should stay
Bewley - Should stay
Docker - Doubtful
Edmondson - Want to stay
Haig - Want to stay
Hepburn - Should Stay
Juul-Jensen - Should Retain
Plaza - On more year
Mezgec - Vital to stay
Power - Question mark
So now according to confirmed news and rumours it's 3 out and 3 in. Definite question marks on 2 or 3 other riders being there in 2018 - I understand one of the Aussie under 23's has signed/will sign and one may ride as a stagiare - Can see up to 5 or 6 changes in the team.
At this stage the in's seem to be
Nieve ( confirmed )
Trentin ( strong rumour )
C.Meyer ( strong rumour
Out's
Keukeliere ( confirmed )
Cort ( rumour )
Gerrans ( rumour )
Riders off-contract
Tuft - Apparently its his call.
Hayman - Read Tuft
Albasini - should stay
Bewley - Should stay
Docker - Doubtful
Edmondson - Want to stay
Haig - Want to stay
Hepburn - Should Stay
Juul-Jensen - Should Retain
Plaza - On more year
Mezgec - Vital to stay
Power - Question mark
So now according to confirmed news and rumours it's 3 out and 3 in. Definite question marks on 2 or 3 other riders being there in 2018 - I understand one of the Aussie under 23's has signed/will sign and one may ride as a stagiare - Can see up to 5 or 6 changes in the team.
Re:
Whilst sad to see both Keukeleire and Cort leave; sometimes you get an offer that's hard to refuse either on $$$$ or in some cases, promises of being "the number one man". Think this most likely would've been in play with Keukeleire who would certainly have been fielding some serious offers ... as would Cort.
Gerrans ... I would think most likely to retirement unless he is willing to keep racing at a significantly lower level and pay-packet.
My read on "off contracts" basically lines up with yours
Tuft - may be "his call" but in reality, I would rather see him go with the dignity that his long service deserves rather than be blatantly struggling.
Docker - agree he looks to be on the way out
Albasini - one of the best value for money signings the team ever made and he continues to bring in results in WT races every season. If he is wanting to go around again, then I'm in favour although maybe on year by year basis. Would probably look at one-weekers and one day races rather than any more GTs.
Hayman - what I think MAY happen is that he may sign a short term deal that sees him sign off after next year's P-R
Haig - priority re-signing
Edmondson - priority re-signing
Power - likely re-signing but will need to start showing something next season
Plaza - similar age to Albasini and would take a similar line with the exception of GTs where Plaza can still play a productive role
Bewley - keep, both for the Chaves connection but his hard work to widen his range and utility as a rider
Hepburn - keep, similar to Bewley case
Juul - Jensen - would like to keep him, does he want to stay ?
Mezgec - would certainly re-sign, irrespective of whatever the team's plans are re Ewan. Maybe get a few more opportunities for himself but can also be beneficial in Edmondson's development
Therefore, we agree on the "most likely suspects" but differ to varying degrees re the sentencing
yaco said:
Whilst sad to see both Keukeleire and Cort leave; sometimes you get an offer that's hard to refuse either on $$$$ or in some cases, promises of being "the number one man". Think this most likely would've been in play with Keukeleire who would certainly have been fielding some serious offers ... as would Cort.
Gerrans ... I would think most likely to retirement unless he is willing to keep racing at a significantly lower level and pay-packet.
My read on "off contracts" basically lines up with yours
Tuft - may be "his call" but in reality, I would rather see him go with the dignity that his long service deserves rather than be blatantly struggling.
Docker - agree he looks to be on the way out
Albasini - one of the best value for money signings the team ever made and he continues to bring in results in WT races every season. If he is wanting to go around again, then I'm in favour although maybe on year by year basis. Would probably look at one-weekers and one day races rather than any more GTs.
Hayman - what I think MAY happen is that he may sign a short term deal that sees him sign off after next year's P-R
Haig - priority re-signing
Edmondson - priority re-signing
Power - likely re-signing but will need to start showing something next season
Plaza - similar age to Albasini and would take a similar line with the exception of GTs where Plaza can still play a productive role
Bewley - keep, both for the Chaves connection but his hard work to widen his range and utility as a rider
Hepburn - keep, similar to Bewley case
Juul - Jensen - would like to keep him, does he want to stay ?
Mezgec - would certainly re-sign, irrespective of whatever the team's plans are re Ewan. Maybe get a few more opportunities for himself but can also be beneficial in Edmondson's development
Therefore, we agree on the "most likely suspects" but differ to varying degrees re the sentencing
Orica team for the Bink Bank Tour
Edmondson
Cort
Juul-jensen
Keukeliere
Kleuge
Docker
Gerrans
Hepburn
Imagine that Keukeliere for GC and Cort/Edmondson for stages - Pity that Durbridge hasn't recovered after the operation on his ankle - Could be out for another month - This was his type of race.
Edmondson
Cort
Juul-jensen
Keukeliere
Kleuge
Docker
Gerrans
Hepburn
Imagine that Keukeliere for GC and Cort/Edmondson for stages - Pity that Durbridge hasn't recovered after the operation on his ankle - Could be out for another month - This was his type of race.
Re:
In other news the longlist for the Vuelta:
Yates' brothers
Chavito
Bewley
Haig
Cort
Plaza
Verona
Hayman
Hepburn
Tuft
Juul-Jensen
Surprised not to see Howson's name on the list, could be injured or sick, which might explain his riding in the Tour?
Juul-Jensen might be able to try for the GC as well, if I remember correct he did pretty good two or three years ago riding for Tinkoff.yaco said:
In other news the longlist for the Vuelta:
Yates' brothers
Chavito
Bewley
Haig
Cort
Plaza
Verona
Hayman
Hepburn
Tuft
Juul-Jensen
Surprised not to see Howson's name on the list, could be injured or sick, which might explain his riding in the Tour?
I'll have to redo my team for the Vuelta - Cort and Plaza taken off the extended start list, while Kluge has been added.
Re:
All I can say is ..... if this 3 GC men to the same GT turns out to be the major miscalculation it promises to be; then the person responsible should be fired as high as the moon !! The evidence was clear at the end of the Tour that SY was "running on fumes" and it was made patently obvious at San Sebastian when he was unable to go with the moves. Total and utter lunacy !!
Haig and Verona as the sole climbing support .... another WTF unless one of Chaves & SY are openly willing to ride as domestiques and its questionable as to how effective a "running on empty" SY would be no matter his desire to be of use. Unless Plaza is ill, I cannot fathom that one as I'd have him in front of Verona in any case and would strengthen TTT whereas Verona = complete liability
No problems with Bewley or J-J but not happy about either Hayman or Tuft who will essentially be passengers once the road slopes even moderately upwards. Both grand servants but both now very much in the zone of diminishing returns and capacity when it comes to GTs.
Sorry Orica hierarchy but this promises to be more National Lampoons' Cycling Vacation than a half way serious GT campaign
Would far prefer Hepburn in for Tuft ... more than covers off the TTT angle and far greater utility over wider range of terrain. Kluge ??? Unless there is a sprinter in the line-up then he has 0 business being within the same post code as the Vuelta team. There is no sprinter .... please explain ?
yaco said:
All I can say is ..... if this 3 GC men to the same GT turns out to be the major miscalculation it promises to be; then the person responsible should be fired as high as the moon !! The evidence was clear at the end of the Tour that SY was "running on fumes" and it was made patently obvious at San Sebastian when he was unable to go with the moves. Total and utter lunacy !!
Haig and Verona as the sole climbing support .... another WTF unless one of Chaves & SY are openly willing to ride as domestiques and its questionable as to how effective a "running on empty" SY would be no matter his desire to be of use. Unless Plaza is ill, I cannot fathom that one as I'd have him in front of Verona in any case and would strengthen TTT whereas Verona = complete liability
No problems with Bewley or J-J but not happy about either Hayman or Tuft who will essentially be passengers once the road slopes even moderately upwards. Both grand servants but both now very much in the zone of diminishing returns and capacity when it comes to GTs.
Sorry Orica hierarchy but this promises to be more National Lampoons' Cycling Vacation than a half way serious GT campaign
Would far prefer Hepburn in for Tuft ... more than covers off the TTT angle and far greater utility over wider range of terrain. Kluge ??? Unless there is a sprinter in the line-up then he has 0 business being within the same post code as the Vuelta team. There is no sprinter .... please explain ?
Re: Re:
I am staggered that you would have Bewley, Hayman and Tuft in the same team - Would have been better to replace one with Cort who can win a sprint stage and has utility or even use Mezgec.
Think Hepburn missed out because he is a protected rider at the Bink Bank Tour which is an excellent chance for this team oriented rider.
I wonder if Cort and Plaza have been taken off the start list because they won't be at Orica in 2018 - Who knows but some teams take this approach in late season.
My major excitement will be to see how Haig performs - I suspect he will end up a better GC rider than the 2 yates.
dirkprovin said:yaco said:
All I can say is ..... if this 3 GC men to the same GT turns out to be the major miscalculation it promises to be; then the person responsible should be fired as high as the moon !! The evidence was clear at the end of the Tour that SY was "running on fumes" and it was made patently obvious at San Sebastian when he was unable to go with the moves. Total and utter lunacy !!
Haig and Verona as the sole climbing support .... another WTF unless one of Chaves & SY are openly willing to ride as domestiques and its questionable as to how effective a "running on empty" SY would be no matter his desire to be of use. Unless Plaza is ill, I cannot fathom that one as I'd have him in front of Verona in any case and would strengthen TTT whereas Verona = complete liability
No problems with Bewley or J-J but not happy about either Hayman or Tuft who will essentially be passengers once the road slopes even moderately upwards. Both grand servants but both now very much in the zone of diminishing returns and capacity when it comes to GTs.
Sorry Orica hierarchy but this promises to be more National Lampoons' Cycling Vacation than a half way serious GT campaign
Would far prefer Hepburn in for Tuft ... more than covers off the TTT angle and far greater utility over wider range of terrain. Kluge ??? Unless there is a sprinter in the line-up then he has 0 business being within the same post code as the Vuelta team. There is no sprinter .... please explain ?
I am staggered that you would have Bewley, Hayman and Tuft in the same team - Would have been better to replace one with Cort who can win a sprint stage and has utility or even use Mezgec.
Think Hepburn missed out because he is a protected rider at the Bink Bank Tour which is an excellent chance for this team oriented rider.
I wonder if Cort and Plaza have been taken off the start list because they won't be at Orica in 2018 - Who knows but some teams take this approach in late season.
My major excitement will be to see how Haig performs - I suspect he will end up a better GC rider than the 2 yates.
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