Jayco al-'Ula and its GreenEdge predecessors

[theyoungest]

Just like euskatel will boost their classics ranks...

there aren't many quality stage racers on the market, they have stated that they will shoot for classics and sprints and look to stage hunt in GT's too - What makes you so sure that they will try and go so much for GC in stage races? It would defeat the aim they have stated! Martin seems to be the only one worth pursuing at the moment, I imagine his asking price would be horrendous considering the amount of points he carries.

I know it's not their main goal, but it doesn't hurt to have at least two or three guys who can go for GC. Or climb with, say, the 30 strongest in a GT. This team reminds me a bit of Sky last year: a serious lack of climbing power.

 

[greenedge]

It's good that we have signed Mouris but i am anxiously waiting on Goss, Howard and even a stage racer like Tony Martin. Otherwise even if we do get the WT we need someone to win sprints and maybe win at least one stage race.

 

[Andy99]

It's good that we have signed Mouris but i am anxiously waiting on Goss, Howard and even a stage racer like Tony Martin. Otherwise even if we do get the WT we need someone to win sprints and maybe win at least one stage race.

How many riders are confirmed thus far?

 

[just some guy]

Is Mouris a good rider?

massive engine

How many riders are confirmed thus far?

9

 

[PCutter]

I think the difficulty is who should they have picked as the 'face' of the team.

SO'G will be the initial face of the team, while he may have basically been a super domestique/road captain for the last couple of years, in Australia he's still a guy who rode with the yellow jersey, won TdF stages, won Olympic gold (Australian's still love track cycling) and P-R and was at the vanguard of the 'Aussie Assault' in Europe in the late '90's with the likes of Stu, Robbie, Cookie, McGee et al. His palmares are better than Wiggins were when Sky built their team.

They will also use the 'new breed' of young riders as their poster boys of what they're building a team for/around and if Jack Bobridge, Cam Meyer, Durbridge, Hepburn (or whoever makes the final 4) win the Teams Pursuit gold in London they will dovetail that public support post Olympics into the GE brand (though I hate sports teams referring to themselves as a brand).

 

[boomcie]

Is Mouris a good rider?

Not really .

But Greenedge seems to obsessed with collecting Dutch riders, so I guess that's all there is to say about their motives.

 

[Tuarts]

The Tony Martin PR crew must be slapping themselves on the back. People are actually believing he's a GC guy.

 

[gerrans for the win]

i'm not sure what to make of howard, imo i thought he could anything (has age on his side yes) just hope change of team he might go bang..

funny thing is if you are picking a team for le tour i can only see 3 aussies getting in the team dam those dutch

 

[Sydney21]

Not really .

But Greenedge seems to obsessed with collecting Dutch riders, so I guess that's all there is to say about their motives.

Naaa thats crap. He hasn't had many chances to ride for himself. He is a good time trialist especially in the shorter TT's and very solid cobbles rider when he gets the chance. He will be a good solid worker as he has been in the past. He's not so fast so he will never feature on the results sheets as much as a sprinter but he is really strong. He fits perfectly into the team because they will want him to ride for a leader on the cobbles using his strength and pull back breaks in the last 30 kms on sprint stages using his track background and TT abilities.

2010 1º in Ronde van het Groene Hart, Zoetermeer (NED)
2010 4º in Stage 2 Driedaagse van De Panne, Koksijde (Sint-Idesbald) (BEL)
2010 6º in General Classification Driedaagse van De Panne (BEL)
2010 3º in Ronde van Noord-Holland, Zaandam (NED)
2010 3º in Stage 5 Quatre jours de Dunkerque, Dunkerque (FRA)
2010 7º in Stage 1 Delta Tour Zeeland, Goes (NED)
2010 6º in General Classification Delta Tour Zeeland (NED)
2010 4º in Duo Normand (FRA)

2011 6º in General Classification Driedaagse van West-Vlaanderen (BEL)
2011 10º in Stage 1 Ster Elektrotoer, Alblasserdam (NED)
2011 2º in National Championship, Road, ITT, Elite, The Netherlands, Veendam 2011 6º in Stage 4 Benelux Tour, Roermond

 

[briztoon]

Not really .

But Greenedge seems to obsessed with collecting Dutch riders, so I guess that's all there is to say about their motives.

huh?


Not sure if this is just a lowlands, Belgium v Dutch thing. Aussies do like Dutchies though. I wonder if Philips would want to sponsor an Aussie cycle team.

 

[boomcie]

Naaa thats crap. He hasn't had many chances to ride for himself. He is a good time trialist especially in the shorter TT's and very solid cobbles rider when he gets the chance. He will be a good solid worker as he has been in the past. He's not so fast so he will never feature on the results sheets as much as a sprinter but he is really strong. He fits perfectly into the team because they will want him to ride for a leader on the cobbles using his strength and pull back breaks in the last 30 kms on sprint stages using his track background and TT abilities.

2010 1º in Ronde van het Groene Hart, Zoetermeer (NED)
2010 4º in Stage 2 Driedaagse van De Panne, Koksijde (Sint-Idesbald) (BEL)
2010 6º in General Classification Driedaagse van De Panne (BEL)
2010 3º in Ronde van Noord-Holland, Zaandam (NED)
2010 3º in Stage 5 Quatre jours de Dunkerque, Dunkerque (FRA)
2010 7º in Stage 1 Delta Tour Zeeland, Goes (NED)
2010 6º in General Classification Delta Tour Zeeland (NED)
2010 4º in Duo Normand (FRA)

2011 6º in General Classification Driedaagse van West-Vlaanderen (BEL)
2011 10º in Stage 1 Ster Elektrotoer, Alblasserdam (NED)
2011 2º in National Championship, Road, ITT, Elite, The Netherlands, Veendam 2011 6º in Stage 4 Benelux Tour, Roermond

Those results aren't really impressive are they? Only thing I remember is he did well in a Vuelta prologue once.

So no, I wouldn't say he's a great rider, especially not with you showing me his best results.

 

[Sydney21]

The Tony Martin PR crew must be slapping themselves on the back. People are actually believing he's a GC guy.

Well he is... just not for Grand Tours

i'm not sure what to make of howard, imo i thought he could anything (has age on his side yes) just hope change of team he might go bang..

funny thing is if you are picking a team for le tour i can only see 3 aussies getting in the team dam those dutch

I'm sort of the same with Howard. I thought after he won in Oman last year that he was going to be super fast but I'm starting to think he'd be super effective in a lead out role. The question is whether he would be happy to settle for a lead out role though and whether he is good at positioning himself. I think it was last stage of Cali where he delivered gossy for the win with a perfect leadout. Would be nice to see that in the tour.

And with the number of Aussies. I find it hard to believe the Goss, Gerrans, Lloyd, O'grady as a minimum won't make the team... it wouldnt surprise me if there were 5-7 Aussies in the team because i'm not sure how intent the Dutchies would be on riding the tour. with Lloyd it depends on how well he can come back from his year off but if he can reach his former level or improve he would be a shoe in.

 

[theyoungest]

Not really .

But Greenedge seems to obsessed with collecting Dutch riders, so I guess that's all there is to say about their motives.

It's certainly refreshing to have a team that is not obsessed with signing Belgians, unlike the Belgian-run teams Lotto, QST, BMC, RadioShack, Vacansoleil...

 

[just some guy]

Those results aren't really impressive are they? Only thing I remember is he did well in a Vuelta prologue once.

So no, I wouldn't say he's a great rider, especially not with you showing me his best results.

I would bet he hasn´t been signed to win races.

Massive Engine do the work - break the wind, pull back breaks , get bottles etc etc

 

[Sydney21]

Those results aren't really impressive are they? Only thing I remember is he did well in a Vuelta prologue once.

So no, I wouldn't say he's a great rider, especially not with you showing me his best results.

ACF asked if he was a good rider...you said not really...I said he was a good rider (if you read my rationale you will realise that i didn't say 'great' once) for the function that he is signed for. It is incorrect to think that a rider can only be good if they have results... Its about on par with those who think cycling is an individual sport still people who think cycling is an individual sport.

 

[boomcie]

It's certainly refreshing to have a team that is not obsessed with signing Belgians, unlike the Belgian-run teams Lotto, QST, BMC, RadioShack, Vacansoleil...

Vaconsoleil: De Gendt, Leukemans, Devolder, Boeckmans
BMC: GVA, Gilbert, Eijssen
Radioshack: Hermans, Meersman, Rosseler

All of these riders are better or have shown more potential than our friend Mouris. Who simply is a mediocre rider. Why is everyone so offended? Frederik Veuchelen is also a pretty ****ty rider for instance.

LOtto & QST: Belgian teams, irrelevant. Why does Rabobank have so many Dutch riders?

I would bet he hasn´t been signed to win races.

You don't say.

It is incorrect to think that a rider can only be good if they have results... Its about on par with those who think cycling is an individual sport still people who think cycling is an individual sport.

Sucker punch. Of course some riders aren't hired to win races, but Mouris hasn't impressed me so far. Not even as a domestique.

I'm just saying Mouris isn't a good rider in my book. He basically fills the Greenedge ranks and will probably serve as a domestique in the smaller races...

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So far the roster looks like being better than Pegasus', but not as good as Sky's debut roster.

When people complain about riders being practically shelved early on... I'd counterargue that if you announce a team and your likely targets become known that early in the season, then you're every bit as much the cause as the victim, and you shouldn't start going on a recruiting drive in January. The riders are the unlucky ones, because they get caught in the tug-of-love and basically lose much of a year's bargaining power.

*If* riders like Bobridge, Travis Meyer and Davis have been marginalised because of not wanting to just score a bunch of points for another team when they inevitably leave, then I can totally understand their team's not wanting to put them in, or not providing them with a lot of support. But I can also understand why GreenEdge felt they needed to start recruitment very early, especially with the Australian season being so early on and needing to make maximum effect.

A lot of Sky's signings were underwhelming. But they did have the benefit of a clear leader. GreenEdge would need Evans to have equivalent; maybe Goss could fit the bill if they, as expected, become a sprinter's team, maybe Davis becomes the secondary sprinter or switches to final leadout, I don't know. Stuey O'Grady is good for name recognition value, but he's not a team leader, by any stretch of the imagination, at this stage in his career. He could be a brilliant road captain, certainly, since he already has been one at Saxo and Leopard, but surely he can't be the marquee name leader.

 

[Midnightfright]

So far the roster looks like being better than Pegasus', but not as good as Sky's debut roster.

When people complain about riders being practically shelved early on... I'd counterargue that if you announce a team and your likely targets become known that early in the season, then you're every bit as much the cause as the victim, and you shouldn't start going on a recruiting drive in January. The riders are the unlucky ones, because they get caught in the tug-of-love and basically lose much of a year's bargaining power.

*If* riders like Bobridge, Travis Meyer and Davis have been marginalised because of not wanting to just score a bunch of points for another team when they inevitably leave, then I can totally understand their team's not wanting to put them in, or not providing them with a lot of support. But I can also understand why GreenEdge felt they needed to start recruitment very early, especially with the Australian season being so early on and needing to make maximum effect.

A lot of Sky's signings were underwhelming. But they did have the benefit of a clear leader. GreenEdge would need Evans to have equivalent; maybe Goss could fit the bill if they, as expected, become a sprinter's team, maybe Davis becomes the secondary sprinter or switches to final leadout, I don't know. Stuey O'Grady is good for name recognition value, but he's not a team leader, by any stretch of the imagination, at this stage in his career. He could be a brilliant road captain, certainly, since he already has been one at Saxo and Leopard, but surely he can't be the marquee name leader.

Well if Tony Martin or say Cav were to go they would certainly be leaders I know its highly unlikely but who else available could be places in the category.

 

[ingsve]

So far the roster looks like being better than Pegasus', but not as good as Sky's debut roster.

When people complain about riders being practically shelved early on... I'd counterargue that if you announce a team and your likely targets become known that early in the season, then you're every bit as much the cause as the victim, and you shouldn't start going on a recruiting drive in January. The riders are the unlucky ones, because they get caught in the tug-of-love and basically lose much of a year's bargaining power.

*If* riders like Bobridge, Travis Meyer and Davis have been marginalised because of not wanting to just score a bunch of points for another team when they inevitably leave, then I can totally understand their team's not wanting to put them in, or not providing them with a lot of support. But I can also understand why GreenEdge felt they needed to start recruitment very early, especially with the Australian season being so early on and needing to make maximum effect.

A lot of Sky's signings were underwhelming. But they did have the benefit of a clear leader. GreenEdge would need Evans to have equivalent; maybe Goss could fit the bill if they, as expected, become a sprinter's team, maybe Davis becomes the secondary sprinter or switches to final leadout, I don't know. Stuey O'Grady is good for name recognition value, but he's not a team leader, by any stretch of the imagination, at this stage in his career. He could be a brilliant road captain, certainly, since he already has been one at Saxo and Leopard, but surely he can't be the marquee name leader.

Part of the problem they get by recruiting so many australians is that they only get two types of riders. Track cyclists who sprint and track cyclists who time trial. This also means that no one really stands out since they are almost all interchangeable. They haven't really made things that much better with their foreign recruits either. Sure Langeveld adds more cobbled speciality than they would otherwise have had but in all other races he fills the same niche as all the aussies. Same with Vaitkus who is also a ITT/sprinter with some good cobbles experience. I really hope they can spring out some surprise signings that no one has been talking about or they risk being completely boring and invisible in half the races of the year. It seems like when they realised they wouldn't be getting Evans they scrapped everything related to climbing but forgot that they still need to race all of these races if they do get into the WT.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Part of the problem they get by recruiting so many australians is that they only get two types of riders. Track cyclists who sprint and track cyclists who time trial. This also means that no one really stands out since they are almost all interchangeable. They haven't really made things that much better with their foreign recruits either. Sure Langeveld adds more cobbled speciality than they would otherwise have had but in all other races he fills the same niche as all the aussies. Same with Vaitkus who is also a ITT/sprinter with some good cobbles experience. I really hope they can spring out some surprise signings that no one has been talking about or they risk being completely boring and invisible in half the races of the year. It seems like when they realised they wouldn't be getting Evans they scrapped everything related to climbing but forgot that they still need to race all of these races if they do get into the WT.

How much purpose would there be to signing a bunch of climbing domestiques when you don't have a leader who can climb?

It's not an easy set of choices. There are currently one and a half Australian riders who could even conceivably be regarded as GC men, Evans and Porte. Evans is obviously the dream signing, but there is absolutely no way he can be pried away from BMC. Porte would be both expensive and a gamble at poor odds. He has yet to show that he can repeat his one good Grand Tour GC. Realistically, nobody is going to expensively assemble a new team around him, unless his mother wins the lottery.

So the alternative would be to get in a foreign GC man, which probably wouldn't be ideal from a marketing perspective. Particularly as there aren't very many decent Australian climbing domestiques either, so they'd end up with a support team of foreigners as well. And remember, reliably good GC men of any nationality are rare in the first place and can mostly choose a team that has already shown that it can offer adequate support. So they run a very high chance of getting in a foreign GC man and taking up many of the support slots with foreign domestiques and still getting nowhere in that sort of race.

Trying to become a sprint/classics/itt team makes sense given that pretty much all of the good Australians fit under those categories. It's a question of working with what you've got. And lots of teams have had success with that sort of model: Quickstep and HTC most obviously, but also Sky (although it wasn't Sky's original plan). The problem is, of course, that while Goss is a very talented rider, he's no Cavendish and no peak period Boonen. And Quickstep this year demonstrate the pitfalls of being a team with no GC riders when their other stars aren't performing.

Their best option is probably to concentrate on sprints and classics but get in a couple of cheap climbers who might be able to do something once in a while without taking up too much in the way of resources. Good domestiques who want the opportunity to ride for themselves or talented kids or something.

 

[just some guy]

There is quite a good group of 18-20 ish Australian guys coming through who can climb for what it´s worth.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

18-20 is a bit optimistic I'm afraid. Climb at what level? Some who could maybe just be hilly classics men, some who will make solid mountain domestiques or stagehunters, and if they're lucky a couple who can become GC contenders, while others will fall by the wayside and either become solid helpers, journeymen, or fate will intervene and they'll never even come close to fulfilling their promise.

That's not me running them down - it's just the usual odds for talented youngsters coming through; for every Robert Gesink and Steven Kruijswijk there's a Kai Reus and Remmert Wielinga.

 

[just some guy]

18 - 20 years old my bad and 3-4 riders but most are linked to Garmin or Livestrong-trek

 

[l.Harm]

18-20 is a bit optimistic I'm afraid. Climb at what level? Some who could maybe just be hilly classics men, some who will make solid mountain domestiques or stagehunters, and if they're lucky a couple who can become GC contenders, while others will fall by the wayside and either become solid helpers, journeymen, or fate will intervene and they'll never even come close to fulfilling their promise.

That's not me running them down - it's just the usual odds for talented youngsters coming through; for every Robert Gesink and Steven Kruijswijk there's a Kai Reus and Remmert Wielinga.

Kai Reus isn't bad But you're right.

 

[ingsve]

How much purpose would there be to signing a bunch of climbing domestiques when you don't have a leader who can climb?

It's not an easy set of choices. There are currently one and a half Australian riders who could even conceivably be regarded as GC men, Evans and Porte. Evans is obviously the dream signing, but there is absolutely no way he can be pried away from BMC. Porte would be both expensive and a gamble at poor odds. He has yet to show that he can repeat his one good Grand Tour GC. Realistically, nobody is going to expensively assemble a new team around him, unless his mother wins the lottery.

So the alternative would be to get in a foreign GC man, which probably wouldn't be ideal from a marketing perspective. Particularly as there aren't very many decent Australian climbing domestiques either, so they'd end up with a support team of foreigners as well. And remember, reliably good GC men of any nationality are rare in the first place and can mostly choose a team that has already shown that it can offer adequate support. So they run a very high chance of getting in a foreign GC man and taking up many of the support slots with foreign domestiques and still getting nowhere in that sort of race.

Trying to become a sprint/classics/itt team makes sense given that pretty much all of the good Australians fit under those categories. It's a question of working with what you've got. And lots of teams have had success with that sort of model: Quickstep and HTC most obviously, but also Sky (although it wasn't Sky's original plan). The problem is, of course, that while Goss is a very talented rider, he's no Cavendish and no peak period Boonen. And Quickstep this year demonstrate the pitfalls of being a team with no GC riders when their other stars aren't performing.

Their best option is probably to concentrate on sprints and classics but get in a couple of cheap climbers who might be able to do something once in a while without taking up too much in the way of resources. Good domestiques who want the opportunity to ride for themselves or talented kids or something.

I'm not talking about a GC leader that can be top 5 in a GT. I'm talking about any rider who can have a presence in a race that features a fair bit of climbing. If they get Albasini then that would be a good start. But the type of rider I'm talking about is someone like Sylvain Chavanel. Or Thomas Voeckler (before this year where he actually did a GC result). Other types like that could be Moncoutie, Hesjedal, Visconti, Hoogerland, Wegmann, Barredo, Gerdemann. Those types of riders would be able to give them a presence in thougher races that they seem unlikely to get with the roster it looks like they are gathering. And it doesn't habe to be that many. Just 5-6 riders who has those types of courses as a speciality would be enough to fill the need in the WT calender.