Johan Bruyneel defends his presence at Wiggins' UCI Hour Rec

[RobbieCanuck]

Re:

Lee @ crankpunk is suggesting Wiggo invited Johan to the gig? Any corroboration of that claim?

In Bruyneel's interview with Cycling News he claims no. He claims he had 3/4 friends who had never been to a high end cycling event and he wanted to treat them, and also see some "old friends" from his cycling days. But if Wiggo had invited him that would be explosive!

 

[oldcrank]

Re:

Lee @ crankpunk is suggesting Wiggo invited Johan to the gig? Any corroboration of that claim?

He also refers to Steve Collins as "Alex Dowsett's coach"
which of course is not true either, mon ami.

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

He is clear in his comments that it was his non cycling friends who wanted to go and so he treated them to the tickets
He simply paid to be in the VIP area, as you can do at any event, there have been cases of people buying tickets to go into VIP enclosures who have been thrown out of sports
Having the UCI stop someone attending any UCI event would be akin to putting them under house arrest as most UCI events are on public roads. So if JB wants to go on Holiday in Virginia this year and happens to be eating lunch at a cafe next to the finish line of the worlds what can anyone do about it?
Absolutely nothing.
Yet again the armchair lawyer hate brigade are out in full force as they are constantly with their lifetime bans for first offences and other such ridiculous ideas.
The UCI would probably not have had a list of all those who bought tickets to the VIP area as they were available to the general public, if you had the cash anyone could get in.
And in my view given the blatant doping pedigree of Wiggins and the ridiculousness of the record he set and his performance then it was probably right that JB was there, it's just a shame more of his ex doping buddies weren't there with him.

 

[MellowJohnny]

Well the untouchable Big Mig was there also, was Merckx also? - They are both clean, yeah right

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Lee @ crankpunk is suggesting Wiggo invited Johan to the gig? Any corroboration of that claim?

He also refers to Steve Collins as "Alex Dowsett's coach"
which of course is not true either, mon ami.

Every rag under the sun has done the same - if that was an attempt to belittle Lee you're doing it with a net that catches a lot of other fish in the process.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Lee @ crankpunk is suggesting Wiggo invited Johan to the gig? Any corroboration of that claim?

He also refers to Steve Collins as "Alex Dowsett's coach"
which of course is not true either, mon ami.

Instead of nit-picking about what the role of Collins might be, what do you think about the very valid points he raises - the components were not commercially available?

Seems like a show stopper to me.

Remember when the UCI had the rule about the straight rear stays and bike after bike flouted it. As ever, UCI rules are a sort of a la carte affair, depending on who you are. Cookson - business as usual.

This is 2012 Olympics all over again though yeah? The GB team bikes were hardly available then and now???

 

[sniper]

benotti posted this in the Cookson thread.
good read, spot on, and some nice pics:
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/features/lees-lowdown-ucwhy/#.VXgy_CibuS1

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Mark, with respect I think you are wrong. Bruyneel bought his own ticket. He is not banned from attending UCI events as a spectator.

...

I was as gagged and upset as anyone at seeing Bruyneel at the event and yukking it up with McQuaid. It was unseemly and surreal. It tarnishes the image of the UCI. It perhaps says more about McQuaid than Bruyneel. But like it or not they both have the right to be there.

I think the point isn't whether Bruyneel bought his own ticket or not, it's the fact that the UCI (apparently) did nothing to dissuade him from attending, or if they didn't know in advance, did nothing to ensure that he was asked to leave or at least leave the (very highly visible) VIP area.

In my long experience attending pro cycling and motor sports events, EVERYONE who is ANYONE involved in the event knows exactly who will be in the VIP area (aside from possibly the VIP's guests) long before the event. Whether it's a sponsor tent, or an organizer's paddock, they know who's there. They also know that, aside from the actual competition, the VIP area is most likely to attract the most media attention and is most likely to be photographed.

The real point that's been made already, is that the UCI seems nonplussed by a man who is currently serving a ban as the mastermind behind the biggest scandal the sport has ever seen (and the total fallout from which maybe hasn't even been seen yet), happily hobnobbing at what has to be considered one of the sport's showcase events (at least from a PR perspective).

I hear you loud and clear. It is just as a former criminal defence lawyer, I recognize certain rights that others may not take into account. I agree the UCI could have tried to dissuade him from attending, but legally it does not appear they could have kept him away. His ticket is a contract. He pays the money and gets the benefit of the ticket and everything that is reasonably implied as accompanying that. The UCI was probably aware of his rights. We don't know if they tried to dissuade him because they have refused any comment on the matter.

The idea of making the ban from cycling broader was perhaps the way to go with Bruyneel. The USADA order could have precluded him from attending any UCI sanctioned event. But there again USADA is stacked with lawyers who would have recognized there is a limit to the kind of banning order they can make. The Americans are particularly conscious of freedom of assembly under their Constitution as are most western legal systems, especially Britain. In Canada we have a specific right under our Charter of Rights that states as follows:

2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly

It was particularly galling to see him there, especially with his gold watch, his vino and yukking it up with McQuaid. He apparently paid Eu/L(?)800 for his ticket and for three other friends so it does not appear he is hurting financially.

The optics were horrible to the cause and insulting to the intellect of those who want clean cycling.

correct...its the insult to the intellect that is most galling...we apparently have Ellingworth ripping pages out of books so incensed he is about dopers and yet here we have another sky-fest with heavy doping associations......off topic but related is david millar's comments on the dauphine TTT..and I paraphrase, 'the late teams will be watching with interest as most of the teams have blown riders out early on...they will be wanting to keep it together" So, 24 hours after the article in cycling news about how being last will be an advantage and after Millar's reasonable comments on the early teams...what do Sky do? They apparently get the 0.1% right and then blow 10% just like that...Sir Dave indeed...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

For me the fact that Froome was shaking his head says the most.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

He is clear in his comments that it was his non cycling friends who wanted to go and so he treated them to the tickets
He simply paid to be in the VIP area, as you can do at any event, there have been cases of people buying tickets to go into VIP enclosures who have been thrown out of sports
Having the UCI stop someone attending any UCI event would be akin to putting them under house arrest as most UCI events are on public roads. So if JB wants to go on Holiday in Virginia this year and happens to be eating lunch at a cafe next to the finish line of the worlds what can anyone do about it?
Absolutely nothing.
Yet again the armchair lawyer hate brigade are out in full force as they are constantly with their lifetime bans for first offences and other such ridiculous ideas.
The UCI would probably not have had a list of all those who bought tickets to the VIP area as they were available to the general public, if you had the cash anyone could get in.
And in my view given the blatant doping pedigree of Wiggins and the ridiculousness of the record he set and his performance then it was probably right that JB was there, it's just a shame more of his ex doping buddies weren't there with him.

Post completely fails as soon as you mention open roads, but thanks for playing.

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

Re: Re:

Yet again the armchair lawyer hate brigade are out in full force as they are constantly with their lifetime bans for first offences and other such ridiculous ideas.
The UCI would probably not have had a list of all those who bought tickets to the VIP area as they were available to the general public, if you had the cash anyone could get in.
And in my view given the blatant doping pedigree of Wiggins and the ridiculousness of the record he set and his performance then it was probably right that JB was there, it's just a shame more of his ex doping buddies weren't there with him.[/quote]

Post completely fails as soon as you mention open roads, but thanks for playing.[/quote]


Sorry but yet again as you often do you FAIL MISERABLY in your ability to READ
I said PUBLIC ROADS not open roads

But as you said thanks for playing

Maybe jack and jill and the big red ball is more your thing

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Yet again the armchair lawyer hate brigade are out in full force as they are constantly with their lifetime bans for first offences and other such ridiculous ideas.
The UCI would probably not have had a list of all those who bought tickets to the VIP area as they were available to the general public, if you had the cash anyone could get in.
And in my view given the blatant doping pedigree of Wiggins and the ridiculousness of the record he set and his performance then it was probably right that JB was there, it's just a shame more of his ex doping buddies weren't there with him.

Post completely fails as soon as you mention open roads, but thanks for playing.

Sorry but yet again as you often do you FAIL MISERABLY in your ability to READ
I said PUBLIC ROADS not open roads

But as you said thanks for playing

Maybe jack and jill and the big red ball is more your thing

Legend. PUBLIC ROADS is still a massively stupid comparison. Well done. I actually meant open as in public, rather than private, but as pedantry is your only weapon I'll give you that one.


Edit: Corrected quoting errors.


Oh, can you point out where I OFTEN fail to read? Thanks.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

How has this not been posted yet?

World Anti-Doping Code • 2015
1
PART
Doping Control
76
ARTICLE 10
10.12
Status during Ineligibility

10.12.1
Prohibition against Participation during Ineligibility

No athlete or other Person who has been declared Ineligible may, during the period of Ineligibility, participate in any capacity in a Competition or activity (other than authorized anti-doping education or rehabilitation programs) authorized or organized by any Signatory, Signatory’s member organization, or a club or other member organization of a Signatory’s member organization, or in Competitions authorized or organized by any professional league or any international- or national-level event organization or any elite or national-level sporting activity funded by a governmental agency.

An athlete or other Person subject to a period of Ineligibility longer than four years may, after completing four years of the period of Ineligibility, participate as an athlete in local sport events not sanctioned or otherwise under the jurisdiction of a Code Signatory or member of a Code Signatory,but only so long as the local sport event is not at a level that could otherwise qualify such athlete or other Person directly or indirectly to compete in (or accumulate points toward) a national championship or International event , and does not involve the athlete or other Person working in any capacity with Minors.

60+ posts of arguing about what he did, and no one posted the actual rules?

Any Capacity seems pretty straightforward...

...but, that being said, at the 2012 Olympic Track Trials, Marc Block, under a 10 year ban for involvement in BALCO, was spotted in the Nike suite at the stadium. A ruckus was raised, but nothing consequential happened. He wasn't let back in the suite for the following days, or didn't try, but nothing of real consequence.

So while I would interpret this as a violation, the powers that be have shown to have a different interpretation.

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

Re: Re:

Legend. PUBLIC ROADS is still a massively stupid comparison. Well done. I actually meant open as in public, rather than private, but as pedantry is your only weapon I'll give you that one.


Edit: Corrected quoting errors.


Oh, can you point out where I OFTEN fail to read? Thanks.[/quote]


Well thanks for answering the last question in your post for me
If you had read what was stated and what I was answering then the statement about public roads, is a perfectly acceptable retort to what was actually said.
The poster I was responding to stated that JB should be banned from attending ANY UCI sanctioned event and as 90% of UCI sanctioned events are held on public roads that would be a ridiculous thing to try to do and even more ridiculous to try to police. Hence my comment as to him being effectively placed under house arrest.

Pedantry is arguing about a specific point such as the use of a single word.
I think what you might want to look up though is ignorance, which equates to commenting on something you have obviously completely failed to get to grips with.

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

Re:

How has this not been posted yet?

World Anti-Doping Code • 2015
1
PART
Doping Control
76
ARTICLE 10
10.12
Status during Ineligibility

10.12.1
Prohibition against Participation during Ineligibility

No athlete or other Person who has been declared Ineligible may, during the period of Ineligibility, participate in any capacity in a Competition or activity (other than authorized anti-doping education or rehabilitation programs) authorized or organized by any Signatory, Signatory’s member organization, or a club or other member organization of a Signatory’s member organization, or in Competitions authorized or organized by any professional league or any international- or national-level event organization or any elite or national-level sporting activity funded by a governmental agency.

An athlete or other Person subject to a period of Ineligibility longer than four years may, after completing four years of the period of Ineligibility, participate as an athlete in local sport events not sanctioned or otherwise under the jurisdiction of a Code Signatory or member of a Code Signatory,but only so long as the local sport event is not at a level that could otherwise qualify such athlete or other Person directly or indirectly to compete in (or accumulate points toward) a national championship or International event , and does not involve the athlete or other Person working in any capacity with Minors.

60+ posts of arguing about what he did, and no one posted the actual rules?

Any Capacity seems pretty straightforward...

...but, that being said, at the 2012 Olympic Track Trials, Marc Block, under a 10 year ban for involvement in BALCO, was spotted in the Nike suite at the stadium. A ruckus was raised, but nothing consequential happened. He wasn't let back in the suite for the following days, or didn't try, but nothing of real consequence.

So while I would interpret this as a violation, the powers that be have shown to have a different interpretation.

Unfortunately you are focusing on the wrong words in the rules
the pertinent word in that sentence is PARTICIPATE
from the OED
To take part; to have a part or share with a person,

However as JB was only a spectator and took no part in the event he was not in breach of the rules
To Spectate
Again from the OED
To look or gaze

I really don't see what the issue is with this - someone who has spent his whole life in cycling - watching a cycling event. Big deal
Do no drugs cheats in NFL or MLB or NBA or Football, or Hockey, or Skiing ever turn up to watch events?
I would imagine they do.........

 

[the delgados]

robertmooreheadlane:
Drug cheats in the sports you mentioned don't have to purchase tickets to events. They just keep playing.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

All y'all know Pat McQuaid is banned from the Olympics yeah? From the time he raced during apartheid?

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Well thanks for answering the last question in your post for me
If you had read what was stated and what I was answering then the statement about public roads, is a perfectly acceptable retort to what was actually said.
The poster I was responding to stated that JB should be banned from attending ANY UCI sanctioned event and as 90% of UCI sanctioned events are held on public roads that would be a ridiculous thing to try to do and even more ridiculous to try to police. Hence my comment as to him being effectively placed under house arrest.

Pedantry is arguing about a specific point such as the use of a single word.
I think what you might want to look up though is ignorance, which equates to commenting on something you have obviously completely failed to get to grips with.

You didn't quote anyone, so I don't see who you were responding to. Seems like you are ignorant about how to actually hold a conversation on a forum.

Often implies a lot more than once. Seems you're ignorant about the definition of that word too.

Two instances of ignorance, so in your world that makes you..?

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

All y'all know Pat McQuaid is banned from the Olympics yeah? From the time he raced during apartheid?

Well remembered. Didn't McQuaid get a lifeban from IOC so that goes to show how it all works! Get a lifeban, become President!!!!!

 

[the delgados]

Re: Re:

All y'all know Pat McQuaid is banned from the Olympics yeah? From the time he raced during apartheid?

Well remembered. Didn't McQuaid get a lifeban from IOC so that goes to show how it all works! Get a lifeban, become President!!!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think McQuaid was banned by the uber-fascist Juan Antonio Samaranch, head of IOC. That would take irony to new levels. I think he, along with Sean Kelly, was banned by his federation after he defied orders not to compete in South Africa.
Again, I might be talking out of my arse here.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

All y'all know Pat McQuaid is banned from the Olympics yeah? From the time he raced during apartheid?

Well remembered. Didn't McQuaid get a lifeban from IOC so that goes to show how it all works! Get a lifeban, become President!!!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think McQuaid was banned by the uber-fascist Juan Antonio Samaranch, head of IOC. That would take irony to new levels. I think he, along with Sean Kelly, was banned by his federation after he defied orders not to compete in South Africa.
Again, I might be talking out of my arse here.

"Kelly and two other Irish riders, Pat and Kieron McQuaid, went to South Africa to ride the Rapport Tour stage-race in preparation for the 1976 Olympic Games. They and others rode under false names because of an international ban on athletes competing in South Africa, as a protest against apartheid.

The Irish were suspended from racing for six months. They were racing again when the International Olympic Committee banned them from the Olympics for life."

McQuaid made it all the way up to IOC committee member. What a clusterf*(k sport can be!!!

 

[robertmooreheadlane]

You didn't quote anyone, so I don't see who you were responding to. Seems like you are ignorant about how to actually hold a conversation on a forum.

I didn't quote anyone as it was mentioned on a number of occasions but for your memory the point I made was "Having the UCI stop someone attending any UCI event would be akin to putting them under house arrest as most UCI events are on public roads"
That to me is a very clear statement. It does not mention the one specific event it states ANY. and doesn't mention open road but Public roads..

Often implies a lot more than once. Seems you're ignorant about the definition of that word too. No the fact you are continuing this stupid conversation about a post you misread and are now trying to make about me getting something wrong shows that you are doing it more than once in only a couple of pages of a single thread.

Two instances of ignorance, so in your world that makes you..? Fed up of arguing with someone as ridiculous as you as you failed to get the point of the first post and of my follow up posts pointing this out.

Now I know you are too self conscious and probably a bit sensitive so you won't agree to disagree let alone simply state that you read it wrong in the first place and apologise for dismissing my original post in your own unique manner as you feel you are somehow more entitled to dismiss people on the forum without any reason or rationale. Even when you are wrong.

So lets just leave it as, you got one wrong, you got called on it, you didn't like it and as the internet bully you are, you went on the offensive.

 

[King Boonen]

[ quote="USERNAME_HERE" ] [ /quote ] It really helps. (delete the spaces).



internet bully? you do love the name calling don't you? I suppose you have loads of examples of me doing this too? Went on the offensive? Seems you just limit yourself to being offensive.

And the point is still ridiculous. I know many people who were in and around the towns when the tour went past through Yorkshire, some even saw the cyclists, and they certainly would not have defined themselves as "attending" the event.

It's also fairly logical that the original poster didn't mean Johann couldn't stand on a public road, just that he should be banned from anywhere that is ticketed.

by the way, you seem to be continuing it too