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Johan Bruyneel talks AC/LA

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Jun 18, 2009
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TheArbiter said:
Nonsense. The Armstrong story boosted cycling everywhere.

One minute the criticism is that he made the tour do france too popular and important, the next minute he supposed to have made no difference to anything. It's very confused.

However, though he increased interest in cycling around the globe, the attitudes towards him in various places depend on general cultural attitudes. In Europe its no conincidence that success is often sneered at, whereas in the US they admire greatness.

Other factors play their part too. In Spain and Italy he was disliked, on one level, for downgrading their own grand tours, and in France disliked to winning it all the time, so their are always these little reasons. But for the most part its pantomime villain stuff. As we saw on the streets of France this year, and in Italy before that, the same people who probably slag him off all the time were lining the streets to cheer him on and grab a photo. People are very schizophrenic.

I know this isn't the clinic but that goes for doping matters too - those who shout the loudest about it are usually the same people that would bite their own arm off to get hold of some cera if they were competiting. They think everybody must think like they do, which is why they are so suspicious of the pros.

Lots of stereotyping going on in this post. Do you have any polls that show LA was disliked in Spain and Italy? And if he was disliked, what the reason was?

Many people dislike LA not because of his TDF wins, but because of his personality (or what we can perceive of it from his actions). His treatment of Contador this year and his sad twitter campaign confirmed for many of us what we already thought. He's a self absorbed a** hiding behind a very clever and carefully orchestrated public persona.

In regards to his pal mares, I do think his sole focus on the TDF will and has hurt his legacy. Merckx, Hinault and many others have commented on this. A great champion doesn't race for only one event a year.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2005/jul/24/cycling.tourdefrance2005
 
mr. tibbs said:
Oh dear. Srsly? Only Americans appreciate success/greatness?

And also: almost every cycling fan I've spoken with/know (and EVERY "hard-core" cycling fan I know) were displeased at the idea of Armstrong's comeback. I think it generated a lot of media buzz in the world outside of the cycling community, so if that's what you mean by "boosted cycling everywhere" then yeah, you're right--except for in the cycling community that I know first hand. It's admittedly small compared to "everywhere," but I doubt it's just an anomally.

Let's be realistic here. The "cycling community" is infintesimal on a world level compared to fans of Nascar, US football, rest of the world football, golf, bowling, aussie rules, rugby league, cricket, tennis, dog racing whatever, and it is all those people who become "cycling fans" only when a story like LA comes along. The fact that some of them remain fans after the big show is over is what benefits the sport.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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TheArbiter said:
However, though he increased interest in cycling around the globe, the attitudes towards him in various places depend on general cultural attitudes. In Europe its no conincidence that success is often sneered at, whereas in the US they admire greatness.

Other factors play their part too. In Spain and Italy he was disliked, on one level, for downgrading their own grand tours, and in France disliked to winning it all the time, so their are always these little reasons. But for the most part its pantomime villain stuff. As we saw on the streets of France this year, and in Italy before that, the same people who probably slag him off all the time were lining the streets to cheer him on and grab a photo. People are very schizophrenic.
Armstrong has been dsiliked in France since 1999 when he was caught lying about his famous TUE. So he was since that day seen as a liar.
Probably that story was never reported in USA but Armstrong was questioned on a rest day about the use of EPO linked to his cancer. He said that he had no TUE neither EPO nor other medicine. 2 days later, he had the famous positive test for corticoid cleared by a backdated TUE.
So it was disliked more for his multiple lies than his victories.
How many victories did he have in 1999?
 
VeloFidelis said:
I know exactly what you are referring to. And I am not disputing whether it happened or not, or who is denying what.

The question is; how much of the story do you think they got right? I have no idea, but I am inclined to give most of what I read, particularly when it deals with celebrity, a 50% bullsh!t factor.

What percentage do you give it?

It depends on the story, the paper and the writer, and wouldn't make a difference to the point I raised anyway.
 

TheArbiter

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This is hilarious stuff, even by your standards...you're now commenting on the traits of a whole continent of people, and more specifically, Italy, France and Spain...

I said general cultural attitudes. I didn't claim everybody thinks the same. Haven't you heard of culture?

I can assure you one hundred percent that success is not sneered at in Europe - there isn't much tolerance for bulls***.

I can assure you success is sneered at in Europe.

What nationality are you, or do I need to ask?

I'm British. The home of the misery guts.
 

TheArbiter

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richwagmn said:
Many people dislike LA not because of his TDF wins, but because of his personality (or what we can perceive of it from his actions). His treatment of Contador this year and his sad twitter campaign confirmed for many of us what we already thought. He's a self absorbed a** hiding behind a very clever and carefully orchestrated public persona.

If he had a carefully orchestrated public persona then he wouldn't fall out with journalists all the time, often on camera. That is nonsense. Most journalists understand that he is a very competitive person.

Obviously as a great champion who has won 7 tours, it was naturally going to be difficult for Lance to play second fiddle to Contador. It's not a surprise that there was friction. There's no need to get all high and mighty about it.
 

TheArbiter

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Digger said:
That's absolute bull****.

It's not like I'm the first person to say this. I thought I was just describing a generally understood common cultural trait of Brits and Europeans. We do love to talk people down, in this country in particular - Americans like to talk people up. It's just how it is.
 
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TheArbiter said:
If he had a carefully orchestrated public persona then he wouldn't fall out with journalists all the time, often on camera. That is nonsense. Most journalists understand that he is a very competitive person.

Obviously as a great champion who has won 7 tours, it was naturally going to be difficult for Lance to play second fiddle to Contador. It's not a surprise that there was friction. There's no need to get all high and mighty about it.

So let me get this straight, a man who is adored primarily by people who know little to nothing about cycling, and who get the majority of their information about him from American news organizations (probably the worst "news" organizations in the world across the board, regardless of subject) is probably a great guy in your opinion.

However, consider this:

Most of the people who have ridden, worked, or come into close extended contact with the guy will all tell you he is an ***.

I am guessing that the media persona thing has weight.
 
TheArbiter said:
It's not like I'm the first person to say this. I thought I was just describing a generally understood common cultural trait of Brits and Europeans. We do love to talk people down, in this country in particular - Americans like to talk people up. It's just how it is.

I'm European
 

Eva Maria

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TheArbiter said:
It's not like I'm the first person to say this. I thought I was just describing a generally understood common cultural trait of Brits and Europeans. We do love to talk people down, in this country in particular - Americans like to talk people up. It's just how it is.

What is next? Are you going to say that Irish people like to drink and Italians are lazy thieves?

It appears the forum has found it's resident sociologist.
 
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Thoughtforfood said:
So let me get this straight, a man who is adored primarily by people who know little to nothing about cycling, and who get the majority of their information about him from American news organizations (probably the worst "news" organizations in the world across the board, regardless of subject) is probably a great guy in your opinion.

.

This. The US media's silence on the LA/AC/Astana dynamics is stunning. There's a great story here that I'm sure many cycling fans would like to hear. What went on behind the scenes? How bad were things really? What serious journalist wouldn't want to pursue this story? Yet, nothing. Amazing.
 
richwagmn said:
This. The US media's silence on the LA/AC/Astana dynamics is stunning. There's a great story here that I'm sure many cycling fans would like to hear. What went on behind the scenes? How bad were things really? What serious journalist wouldn't want to pursue this story? Yet, nothing. Amazing.

+1 to that.

It would make a fascinating story of treachery and intrigue to rival Dangerous Liaisons, regardless of who was involved.
 
richwagmn said:
This. The US media's silence on the LA/AC/Astana dynamics is stunning. There's a great story here that I'm sure many cycling fans would like to hear. What went on behind the scenes? How bad were things really? What serious journalist wouldn't want to pursue this story? Yet, nothing. Amazing.
+2

I wish somebody good would get on it.
 
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TheArbiter said:
I can assure you success is sneered at in Europe.

I'm British. The home of the misery guts.

Really? Your countrymen have been sneering at the recent results by Cav and Wiggins at the Tour? Oh, and the recent Olympic track domination? :rolleyes:

All I seem to hear is adulation.
 
May 15, 2010
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Are you two posting to a year old thread just to up your post count??? :confused:

I used to look at my post count and think how puny it was. Now I look at it and say WTF are you doing with your spare time, Man? There are 2 perfectly good bikes 15 feet away that you should be riding. :)
 
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