• The Cycling News forum is looking to add some volunteer moderators with Red Rick's recent retirement. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to @SHaines here on the forum, or use the Contact Us form to message the Community Team.

    In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.

    Thanks!

Johan Bruyneel talks AC/LA

Page 7 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Apr 21, 2009
174
0
0
Visit site
It's a business, fool...

thehog said:
My god that is brilliant. I think you may have just solved the current economic crisis.

Since you don't understand context, and apparently are a simpleton, let me provide for you a concrete example of a deal made during the Tour.

(And please, don't consider a career in business.)

Excerpt From Cyclingnews.com, July 31, 2009:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/editions/first-edition-cycling-news-saturday-august-1-2009

Fignon: We were bribed to lose 87 Vuelta

Frenchman details deal in his biography

Having already upset some of his former racing peers with suggestions that dope-taking was rife when he was in his pomp in the 1980s, two-time Tour de France winner Laurent Fignon is at the centre of another storm. Once again, his recently released autobiography is the cause. In it, he alleges the team manager of 1987 Vuelta winner Luis "Lucho" Herrera bribed the Frenchman and his Renault team into not attacking the Colombian on the decisive final stage of that race.

In Laurent Fignon: Nous étions jeunes et insouciants (Laurent Fignon: We were young and unknowing), the Frenchman alleges that Renault team manager Cyrille Guimard told his riders: "The Colombians are offering us money not to attack." We didn't have any intention of attacking because they offered us 30,000 francs (approx. £3,500) per rider not to," Fignon writes.

Fignon says of the final day, when Herrera led Germany's Raimund Dietzen by just a minute: "There was a hell of a wind blowing and you could sense the fear of the Colombians. In fact, if we had wanted to we could have taken the initiative and blown them all apart without any problem."
 
Again brilliant. Thanks for citing information from 1987 to back up your case in regards to Kloden over 20 years later! Because the pro peleton has changed since 1987!!! Ha ha ha ha ha!!!!! Loser Loser Loser!!!!! Ha ha ha!!!!

Besides what has Fignon being paid by crazy drug running Columbians got to do with Kloden riding for his own team? The example below is about separate teams??? Loser!

If you get a chance could you come my way and give me a hand? cos I'm getting tired from scratching my own head in confusion.

“Sometimes it's risky not to take a risk. The trial lawyer who says he or she never lost a case settles too easily. Don't let yourself be bluffed by artificial deadlines or "final offers." And don't run bluffs, either. If you are called and you don't follow through, your credibility is shot.”

kukiniloa said:
Since you don't understand context, and apparently are a simpleton, let me provide for you a concrete example of a deal made during the Tour.

(And please, don't consider a career in business.)

Excerpt From Cyclingnews.com, July 31, 2009:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/editions/first-edition-cycling-news-saturday-august-1-2009

Fignon: We were bribed to lose 87 Vuelta

Frenchman details deal in his biography

Having already upset some of his former racing peers with suggestions that dope-taking was rife when he was in his pomp in the 1980s, two-time Tour de France winner Laurent Fignon is at the centre of another storm. Once again, his recently released autobiography is the cause. In it, he alleges the team manager of 1987 Vuelta winner Luis "Lucho" Herrera bribed the Frenchman and his Renault team into not attacking the Colombian on the decisive final stage of that race.

In Laurent Fignon: Nous étions jeunes et insouciants (Laurent Fignon: We were young and unknowing), the Frenchman alleges that Renault team manager Cyrille Guimard told his riders: "The Colombians are offering us money not to attack." We didn't have any intention of attacking because they offered us 30,000 francs (approx. £3,500) per rider not to," Fignon writes.

Fignon says of the final day, when Herrera led Germany's Raimund Dietzen by just a minute: "There was a hell of a wind blowing and you could sense the fear of the Colombians. In fact, if we had wanted to we could have taken the initiative and blown them all apart without any problem."
 
kukiniloa said:
You must have an MBA because you obviously know nothing about business.
The first rule is: everything is negotiable.

I can see it now. Armstrong joins Astana, riding for no money. Kloden and his manager are called in to the front office to have a new clause inserted into Kloden's contract because Bruyneel is intent on leaving a clear paper trail documenting the betrayal of Contador, who might want to use such evidence to break his contract with Olympus SARL. Good thing a genius such as yourself is not running my business.
 
Apr 21, 2009
174
0
0
Visit site
Mea culpa

thehog said:
Again brilliant. Thanks for citing information from 1987 to back up your case in regards to Kloden over 20 years later! Because the pro peleton has changed since 1987!!! Ha ha ha ha ha!!!!! Loser Loser Loser!!!!! Ha ha ha!!!!

Besides what has Fignon being paid by crazy drug running Columbians got to do with Kloden riding for his own team? The example below is about separate teams??? Loser!

If you get a chance could you come my way and give me a hand? cos I'm getting tired from scratching my own head in confusion.

“Sometimes it's risky not to take a risk. The trial lawyer who says he or she never lost a case settles too easily. Don't let yourself be bluffed by artificial deadlines or "final offers." And don't run bluffs, either. If you are called and you don't follow through, your credibility is shot.”

I am humbled. Your wisdom speaks volumes and I have seen my vision for what it is - a narrow tunnel. Thank you for enlightening me, oh wise one.

I am certain that what you are implying - that the biz has changed so much since 1987, money doesn't talk any more, and that professional cycling isn't about money, it quite true.

So, you mean that Kloden was riding for Contador? Please clarify!
 
kukiniloa said:
I am humbled. Your wisdom speaks volumes and I have seen my vision for what it is - a narrow tunnel. Thank you for enlightening me, oh wise one.

I am certain that what you are implying - that the biz has changed so much since 1987, money doesn't talk any more, and that professional cycling isn't about money, it quite true.

So, you mean that Kloden was riding for Contador? Please clarify!

You said everything is negotiable. Well I'll use a present day example and not one from 20 years ago that its not. See below. Andy Shleck was not negotiable.
_____

The agent of the Schleck brothers, Frank and Andy, stated that there has been no contact regarding the Schleck brothers joining the Radio Shack team to be launched by Lance Armstrong, and attributed the rumors to an Armstrong strategy to discomfit Alberto Contador.

"There is no possibility of this happening. I have had no contact with Bruyneel. It is only a strategy to cause Contador to lose next year" said Giovanni Lombardi, personal agent of the two brothers to L'Equipe. . . . "Andy has seen clearly everything that Alberto Contador lived through in this year's Tour and nobody can imagine that he would willingly embroil himself in all that with the ambitions he has for next year, " said Lombardi.
 
TheArbiter said:
Pssst, just because it's trendy to down play the massive change in the training program for the Tour that Armstrong applied, which had the effect of making the event so hard to win that top contenders will rarely try to win another grand tour in the same year, doesn't mean it's not true. How else do you think he won seven tours in a row? And don't give me that dope crap since you know all of his competitors were just as doped up, or even more so, than he was.
It does get frustrating the way cynical internet forum fun becomes 'fact' by repetition. Some people get so into it that they've actually convinced themselves that Armstrong is not one of the all time greats that transformed tour preparation for the next generation of riders. It's bizarre. I wonder if they really stop and think about what they're saying sometimes.

To the first point...basis for saying that Lance's 'training programme had the effect of making the event so hard to win etc etc' Are you saying he trained harder than everyone else? If so, I would like you to substantiate these claims that he trained harder and revolutionised preparation for the sport.

Yeah 'fact by repetition'...says the man who actually made things up about Stephen Roche...So Lance is one if the greats of cycling, yet you seem to concede that he was doped...and what basis do you have to say that others were more doped than he was?
 

Eva Maria

BANNED
May 24, 2009
387
0
0
Visit site
kukiniloa said:
My..word, weren't you payning attention when LA won with Postal all those times? He won, in part, because he was willing to pay him team well, so he had very strong team support.

Kloden was OBVIOUSLY never an option for GC contender on Astana because he was contractually obligated to support LA! That was his purpose on the tarmac!

The whole drama that LA manufactured was to get the other members to work for him and not for AC. And apparently only Paulhino stayed loyal to AC, because MONEY TALKS!

How hard is it to understand that professional cycling is all about the $$$!!??:confused:

Do you have a link for this claim? Armstrong has a history of not paying his teammates. Andreau, Salvodeli, and Vasseur were all stiffed on USPS.
 

Eva Maria

BANNED
May 24, 2009
387
0
0
Visit site
The groupies get worked up when you question their myth. Why did Hincapie refuse to answer such a simple question?

After several seconds of either embarrassed, confused or angry silence, Hincapie finally answered. All he’d admit was that he knew Armstrong was close by when the hammer went down.

A simple yes or no would suffice.
 

TheArbiter

BANNED
Aug 3, 2009
180
0
0
Visit site
To the first point...basis for saying that Lance's 'training programme had the effect of making the event so hard to win etc etc'

He spent the whole year specifically training for the stages that were announced for the ToF, and yes, riders who came to his camps say they had never experienced anything like it before. No detail for left untouched. Before Armstrong, riders would try to win more than one grand tour in a year - not so today. Once you've been into cycling for a bit you will learn about the Armstrong effect on pro-cycling and the Tour. Just because it's scoffed at on message boards doesn't mean it's not true.

So Lance is one if the greats of cycling, yet you seem to concede that he was doped...and what basis do you have to say that others were more doped than he was?

I don't know for a fact he was doped, but given so many of his competitors were fingered for doping in one way or another, it's hard to imagine Armstrong could not have doped at some point. And given the other guys were caught, and he wasn't, they seemed to be doing it to a higher extent than himself. But vascially it's a non-issue since they were all doped to some degree and therefore it would have made no difference to the outcome.

Ignorant people, that don't understand pro cycling from that era, try to use this against Armstrong, like he somehow injected EPO and then suddenly won 7 tours in a row. For those who know about the sport, that's not how it works. Doping was like nuclear weapons - everybody did it because they knew everybody else was doing it. If there was 100% way to ensure that nobody doped, Armstrong would still have won. That's the point.
 

TheArbiter

BANNED
Aug 3, 2009
180
0
0
Visit site
The groupies get worked up when you question their myth. Why did Hincapie refuse to answer such a simple question?

Well it is, gossip, Eva, and we know how reporters like to sex things up. But to me personally, I tend to think 'good old Armstrong' when I see stories like that. At almost 38, after not riding a Tour for four years, Armstrong needed to be at his wily best to get anywhere near the kid Contador. It makes me think better of him to believe he was plotting and taking every chance he could to gain a few seconds. I loved it where he latched onto the sprinters a few stages before the end of the Tour, and gained another four seconds. Whilst the commentators were focused on Cavendish winning yet again, I could see his yellow striped helmet at the back of the group, and I punched the air with delight.

I suppose competitive natured people see these things differently.
 
TheArbiter said:
He spent the whole year specifically training for the stages that were announced for the ToF, and yes, riders who came to his camps say they had never experienced anything like it before. No detail for left untouched. Before Armstrong, riders would try to win more than one grand tour in a year - not so today. Once you've been into cycling for a bit you will learn about the Armstrong effect on pro-cycling and the Tour. Just because it's scoffed at on message boards doesn't mean it's not true.



I don't know for a fact he was doped, but given so many of his competitors were fingered for doping in one way or another, it's hard to imagine Armstrong could not have doped at some point. And given the other guys were caught, and he wasn't, they seemed to be doing it to a higher extent than himself. But vascially it's a non-issue since they were all doped to some degree and therefore it would have made no difference to the outcome.

Ignorant people, that don't understand pro cycling from that era, try to use this against Armstrong, like he somehow injected EPO and then suddenly won 7 tours in a row. For those who know about the sport, that's not how it works. Doping was like nuclear weapons - everybody did it because they knew everybody else was doing it. If there was 100% way to ensure that nobody doped, Armstrong would still have won. That's the point.

Don't even know where to start here...Been into cycling 20 years and this is fair s*** you've posted, even for the internet. His camps, aacording to Julien De Vriese, his mechanic, were a camp for Ferrari and his clients on the team. (to dope)
Most of his rivals were caught because of police investigations, so that's a mute point, to suggest that they were caught because they doped more.
Riders who have targetted two Grand Tours in recent years: Valverde, Sastre, Contador, Basso, Evans, Menchov, Pellizotti, etc etc....

'Ignorant' people, or Johnny Come latelys come on board since 1999 and tell us all how pro cycling works and has worked. If LA was so bloody talented, why was he losing 20 mins a time on Tour stages PRIOR to working with Michele Ferrari, someone who is and was the best doctor in the business. And this was a regular occurance, as was losing 6 mins a time in time trials.
 
TheArbiter said:
Well it is, gossip, Eva, and we know how reporters like to sex things up. But to me personally, I tend to think 'good old Armstrong' when I see stories like that. At almost 38, after not riding a Tour for four years, Armstrong needed to be at his wily best to get anywhere near the kid Contador. It makes me think better of him to believe he was plotting and taking every chance he could to gain a few seconds. I loved it where he latched onto the sprinters a few stages before the end of the Tour, and gained another four seconds. Whilst the commentators were focused on Cavendish winning yet again, I could see his yellow striped helmet at the back of the group, and I punched the air with delight.

I suppose competitive natured people see these things differently.

:D Good man Now, if I was ever in wonder, I know exactly what I'm dealing with here.
 

TheArbiter

BANNED
Aug 3, 2009
180
0
0
Visit site
Riders who have targetted two Grand Tours in recent years: Valverde, Sastre, Contador, Basso, Evans, Menchov, Pellizotti, etc etc....

The other person to win two grand tours in the same year, this decade, is Contador, but that was only because he wasn't in the ToF that year. I don't know why you have to deny the way Armstrong transformed tour preperation. It's a fact.

If LA was so bloody talented, why was he losing 20 mins a time on Tour stages PRIOR to working with Michele Ferrari, someone who is and was the best doctor in the business. And this was a regular occurance, as was losing 6 mins a time in time trials.

He was a stage racer before 1999 and wasn't attempting to win the GC, so it means nothing. You'll note how Contador has improved on his time trialing, or how Wiggins is now up there in the GC after years of not attempting it.

Come on, pack it in. You've had your fun. Stop disrespecting this cycling great.
 

Eva Maria

BANNED
May 24, 2009
387
0
0
Visit site
TheArbiter said:
The other person to win two grand tours in the same year, this decade, is Contador, but that was only because he wasn't in the ToF that year. I don't know why you have to deny the way Armstrong transformed tour preperation. It's a fact.



He was a stage racer before 1999 and wasn't attempting to win the GC, so it means nothing. You'll note how Contador has improved on his time trialing, or how Wiggins is now up there in the GC after years of not attempting it.

Come on, pack it in. You've had your fun. Stop disrespecting this cycling great.

If by Preparation you mean "Preparation" I would have to agree....but you should be talking about that in the clinic.

What type of preparation did Armstrong do that was so innovative and did not come in a syringe?

You may want to expand your knowledge of the sport beyond livestrong press releases.
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,844
1
0
Visit site
TheArbiter said:
The other person to win two grand tours in the same year, this decade, is Contador, but that was only because he wasn't in the ToF that year. I don't know why you have to deny the way Armstrong transformed tour preperation. It's a fact.



He was a stage racer before 1999 and wasn't attempting to win the GC, so it means nothing. You'll note how Contador has improved on his time trialing, or how Wiggins is now up there in the GC after years of not attempting it.

Come on, pack it in. You've had your fun. Stop disrespecting this cycling great.

He was a stage racer before 1999, but wasn't attempting to win the gc? WTF?

You should be aware that Contador has always been a good time trialist. Sure he has improved but his first win I believe was in a TT...

I personally will stop disrespecting this "cycling great" when he stops disrespecting the sport and other riders.

You my friend are diluted.
 

TheArbiter

BANNED
Aug 3, 2009
180
0
0
Visit site
Eva Maria said:
What type of preparation did Armstrong do that was so innovative and did not come in a syringe?

It's all a lie then....all the pro cyclists, cycling journalists and commentators are lying. It was all a hoax. Armstrong just magically won 7 times in a row after taking some dope. That everybody else was doped too, but couldn't win, has nothing to do with anything...

You stay in that hateful little bubble if it makes you feel better. As a cycling fan myself I can't help but appreciate great riders. That's just me though.
 

TheArbiter

BANNED
Aug 3, 2009
180
0
0
Visit site
TRDean said:
He was a stage racer before 1999, but wasn't attempting to win the gc? WTF?

You should be aware that Contador has always been a good time trialist. Sure he has improved but his first win I believe was in a TT...

I personally will stop disrespecting this "cycling great" when he stops disrespecting the sport and other riders.

You my friend are diluted.

He's done more for cycling than you could do in a thousand years, pal.
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,844
1
0
Visit site
TheArbiter said:
He's done more for cycling than you could do in a thousand years, pal.

What exactly has he done for cycling? Is the sport better today than it was before he came along? I would actually argue differently. More boring today than ever...give me van Impe, Lucho Herrera, LeMond, Moser, Bungo, heck..there are many great riders who I would rather watch. Answer the question...what the heck has he done for cycling? I mean really!!
 
Mar 18, 2009
1,844
1
0
Visit site
TheArbiter said:
He's done more for cycling than you could do in a thousand years, pal.

Oh yea, and what I've done for cycling...nothing...however, when I lived and raced in the Netherlands and Belgium...there were only 3 other americans that were there at the time. Myself, a teammate, and Jonas Carney (he was junior still). I was there when it was not the "thing to do". So bite me.
 
TheArbiter said:
He's done more for cycling than you could do in a thousand years, pal.


I am hereby bailing on these forums. The way some people are talking to each other is ugly, and consistently so. There are a few bad apples lately that have pushed the rhetoric way into the red and they keep it there. :(

We all (or almost all) get a little snotty once in a while. I can see past it. But lately, it's all ugly all the time.

deuces
 
Mar 16, 2009
19,482
2
0
ellobodelmar.spaces.live.com
ggusta said:
I am hereby bailing on these forums. The way some people are talking to each other is ugly, and consistently so. There are a few bad apples lately that have pushed the rhetoric way into the red and they keep it there. :(

We all (or almost all) get a little snotty once in a while. I can see past it. But lately, it's all ugly all the time.

deuces

It's all pretty mild since jackhammer111 and BYU123 left. ah the good ol' days
 
Status
Not open for further replies.