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Join the dots? How dirty is Lotto?

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May 12, 2010
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Mrs John Murphy said:
Is it them (or a different team) that is currently employing the old SD doctor?

Yep, it's Lotto with the old SD doctor. I don't know when he worked there though, he also worked for Lampre in the past (which is hardly an improvement of course).
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Ferminal said:
Combined with Gilbert and Van den Broeck of the last 18-24 months.

Feels way too good to be true for me.

One stage win at DL and a fourth place in the GC feels too good to be true for VDB2? Get a grip.

Vanendert's time up the Plateau de Beille isn't extraterrestrial anyway.

If you watched the GP Wallonie in 2006 where a 20 year old Vanendert put in an attack that blew up Tom Boonen's engine than you know he's a very big talent. He's not coming out of nowhere, just had a lot of bad luck. I'm not saying he's riding clean or anything, but too good to be true? I disagree. It all needs to be put in context(like the GC favorites riding like little pussies yesterday)

In 2007 Vanendert would have been more than 2 minutes behind on Plateau de Beille! That's even behind Cadel Evans who bonked there! If anything we need to make a thread about Mickey Mouse(Cuddles' new nickname)
 
Yeah GP Wallonie, the great proving ground for mountain climbers. Maybe Nick Nuyens and Paul Martens will be attacking the favourites in the Pyrenees next year.

And the favourites dropped guys with a much better mountain record than Vanendert so they weren't going that slow.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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luckyboy said:
Yeah GP Wallonie, the great proving ground for mountain climbers. Maybe Nick Nuyens and Paul Martens will be attacking the favourites in the Pyrenees next year.

And the favourites dropped guys with a much better mountain record than Vanendert so they weren't going that slow.

Yeah, a nobody won that GP Wallonie :eek:

Might also want to check his results in the U23 category.
 
Mar 6, 2011
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El Pistolero said:
2011 14 Saint-Gaudens 168.5 HC Jelle Vanendert Thomas Voeckler 46:04
2007 14 Mazamet 170 HC Alberto Contador Michael Rasmussen 44:08
2004 13 Lannemezan 205.5 HC Lance Armstrong Thomas Voeckler 45:30
2002 12 Lannemezan 198 HC Lance Armstrong Lance Armstrong 45:43
1998 11 Bagnères-de-Luchon 170 HC Marco Pantani Jan Ullrich 43:30*

Where did you find this?
 
Jul 16, 2010
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hrotha said:
It's not about being a nobody. It's about being a hilly classics rider or a real climber.

Think we all know that it always has been a very thin line. Dope didn't turn Rebellin into a top climber. So why didn't it? You're calling Vanendert a hilly classics rider that dopes, just like our old friend Rebellin. So why isn't Rebellin climbing like Vanendert then? Perhaps because Vanendert has more natural climbing talent? ;)
 
El Pistolero said:
Think we all know that it always has been a very thin line. Dope didn't turn Rebellin into a top climber. So why didn't it? You're calling Vanendert a hilly classics rider that dopes, just like our old friend Rebellin. So why isn't Rebellin climbing like Vanendert then? Perhaps because Vanendert has more natural climbing talent? ;)
Rebellin was always more of a climber, he had two top 10's at the Giro and the Vuelta before he even began contending the classics. My point, obviously, is that right now Vanendert looks more like a Di Luca than like a Rebellin.
 
El Pistolero said:
One stage win at DL and a fourth place in the GC feels too good to be true for VDB2? Get a grip.

Vanendert's time up the Plateau de Beille isn't extraterrestrial anyway.

If you watched the GP Wallonie in 2006 where a 20 year old Vanendert put in an attack that blew up Tom Boonen's engine than you know he's a very big talent. He's not coming out of nowhere, just had a lot of bad luck. I'm not saying he's riding clean or anything, but too good to be true? I disagree. It all needs to be put in context(like the GC favorites riding like little pussies yesterday)

In 2007 Vanendert would have been more than 2 minutes behind on Plateau de Beille! That's even behind Cadel Evans who bonked there! If anything we need to make a thread about Mickey Mouse(Cuddles' new nickname)
You make it sound like you're not even surprised with his performances. The guy wins and podiums in the 2 mountain stages, and not due to a long break-away but because he is one of the top 10 climbers this tour. I don't think many people would have expected VDB to win and get a 2nd in this tour, and we are discussing his domestique.

Sure he probably was one of the best talents belgium had, but imo when it looks to good to be true, in cycling it normally isn't true.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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hrotha said:
Rebellin was always more of a climber, he had two top 10's at the Giro and the Vuelta before he even began contending the classics. My point, obviously, is that right now Vanendert looks more like a Di Luca than like a Rebellin.

Top 10 in that Giro is like barely making it in the top 50 of the Tour at that time. It's called weak competition with one or 2 exceptions(Pantani)
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Roninho said:
You make it sound like you're not even surprised with his performances. The guy wins and podiums in the 2 mountain stages, and not due to a long break-away but because he is one of the top 10 climbers this tour. I don't think many people would have expected VDB to win and get a 2nd in this tour, and we are discussing his domestique.

Sure he probably was one of the best talents belgium had, but imo when it looks to good to be true, in cycling it normally isn't true.

Well, what good climber didn't surprise you when they made them self known to the world?

Is Boonen doping because he came third in his very first Paris-Roubaix? Is Andy Schleck any different than Vanendert when he came second in the Giro 2007?

How is Vanendert the exception here compared to other big stars? I can't think of a lot of big stars nowadays that grew steadily over the years. There's Gilbert, and that's all I can think of. Most of them burst on the scene... This is Vanendert's first real year without injuries. I would be more surprised if Kevin de Weert won on Plateau de Beille than I was surprised with Vanendert.
 
El Pistolero said:
Top 10 in that Giro is like barely making it in the top 50 of the Tour at that time. It's called weak competition with one or 2 exceptions(Pantani)

Uh

Gotti - 5th in the previous Tour

Olano - 4th in the next Tour

Ugrumov - 7th in the 1996 Tour after riding the Giro

Tonkov - while he never finished the Tour he was far from barely making top-50
 
Jul 16, 2010
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I'm talking about the Giro in the late 90s in general. It's just not comparable to actually winning a mountain stage in the Tour. Rebellin is not a climber and never was. Bettini also made it to the top 10 of the Giro. Is he a climber? ****ing hell no.

One top 10 in a Giro hardly classifies you as a climber. His GT track record speaks for it self.

And yeah, I don't know what year Rebellin top tenned. Who cares. No one in the world that ever saw Rebellin as a climber except you two. There's no one in the world even calling him a climber. I'll say it again, Davide Rebellin is not a climber. Look at his career for crying out loud. He was more of a climber? Says who? You? He's always been in the classics. His first real results were in the hilly classics and his only results in his career are in hilly classics.
 
Jul 3, 2011
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I have him in my fantasy Le Tour team - I only picked him because he was mega cheap and wanted to make up the numbers after more expensive buys. Touched lucky there!
 
El Pistolero said:
I'm talking about the Giro in the late 90s in general. It's just not comparable to actually winning a mountain stage in the Tour. Rebellin is not a climber and never was. Bettini also made it to the top 10 of the Giro. Is he a climber? ****ing hell no.

One top 10 in a Giro hardly classifies you as a climber. His GT track record speaks for it self.

And yeah, I don't know what year Rebellin top tenned. Who cares.
Bettini achieved his top 10 by taking time in medium mountain stages and thanks to breakaways, not by attacking in actual mountain stages. Rebellin, on the other hand, rode the whole Giro as a GC contender. Same thing at the Vuelta. He was also 20th in 1994, aged 22, and 22th in 1995. He was clearly more of a climber back then. He only started focusing almost 100% on one-day races after 1997, when he won San Sebastián and Zürich, but in 1998 he was still contending the GC of the Tour de Suisse, for example.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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hrotha said:
Bettini achieved his top 10 by taking time in medium mountain stages and thanks to breakaways, not by attacking in actual mountain stages. Rebellin, on the other hand, rode the whole Giro as a GC contender. Same thing at the Vuelta. He was also 20th in 1994, aged 22, and 22th in 1995. He was clearly more of a climber back then. He only started focusing almost 100% on one-day races after 1997, when he won San Sebastián and Zürich, but in 1998 he was still contending the GC of the Tour de Suisse, for example.

A hilly classics specialist that can win one week stage races? No way :eek:

Rebellin first real results were in the hilly classics.

If he was a climber in 1997 then he sure was a crappy one. Perhaps that's the reason why he focused on one day races instead of trying to be a Cunego ;)

As I said, the line between climber and hilly classics specialist is incredibly thin. A hilly classics specialist coming top ten in one lesser GT is hardly surprising for me.

You're acting like Vanendert is Lance Armstrong for crying out loud. Now THAT was a magic transformation ;)
 
El Pistolero said:
A hilly classics specialist that can win one week stage races? No way :eek:

Rebellin first real results were in the hilly classics.

If he was a climber in 1997 then he sure was a crappy one. Perhaps that's the reason why he focused on one day races instead of trying to be a Cunego ;)

As I said, the line between climber and hilly classics specialist is incredibly thin. A hilly classics specialist coming top ten in one lesser GT is hardly surprising for me.

You're acting like Vanendert is Lance Armstrong for crying out loud. Now THAT was a magic transformation ;)
What are you even arguing at this point? That he had more talent as a one-day racer than as a stage racer? Well, duh. That's not what was being discussed though. Let's recap. You're saying the line between hilly classics rider and climber is a blurry one, and said all the dope in the world couldn't make a climber out of Rebellin. I say he was a climber who decided to specialize as a hilly classics rider. The Cunego comparison is apt here. More to the point, however, all the dope in the world did turn other hilly classics riders into climbers and GT contenders: Di Luca, Jalabert, Armstrong.

I see you edited your post while I was replying. Well, sorry, Armstrong is a perfect example here, but if you're not comfortable with it we can stick to Di Luca and Jalabert.
 
Dark_knight said:
Vanendert is a climber.
No surprise.

He lost a couple of years because of injuries.


Look at his U23 results in 2006.

He won a stage on Guzet-Neige in Ronde de l'Isard d'Ariège, U23 2006.

3rd Overall, Giro delle Regione (U23)

5th World U23 Road Race Championship.


http://www.cyclingarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=10304


This year is the real start of his career. ;)

Vanendert won that stage to Guzet-Neige then blew up on the final day over a couple of climbs that were on TV on Saturday. ;)

Giro delle Regione - looking at the stages I can tell just from the cities that hosted the race that it wasn't a mountainous edition

U23 at Salzburg has no relevance to climbing Plateau de Beille.

And as for this year being the real start of his career I'd have to disagree since climbing second category climbs in the Dauphine just about in the top-30 and the big climbs in the bus means that the real start of his career was at about 17.20 CET on 14th of July 2011 when he made it to the top of a HC climb in the Tour together with a proven GT rider.

;)
 
May 12, 2010
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El Pistolero said:
Well, what good climber didn't surprise you when they made them self known to the world?

Is Boonen doping because he came third in his very first Paris-Roubaix? Is Andy Schleck any different than Vanendert when he came second in the Giro 2007?

How is Vanendert the exception here compared to other big stars? I can't think of a lot of big stars nowadays that grew steadily over the years. There's Gilbert, and that's all I can think of. Most of them burst on the scene... This is Vanendert's first real year without injuries. I would be more surprised if Kevin de Weert won on Plateau de Beille than I was surprised with Vanendert.

Your examples are quite poor to justify Vanendert's progress. Boonen and Andy Schleck are pretty much the opposite of Vanendert. These are people who showed tremendous talent the first time they got a chance to prove themselves on their terrain (cobbles and Grand Tours).

Yes, Boonen finished third in his first Paris-Roubaix. But Vanendert's carreer is nothing like that. It would be more akin to Boonen having a couple of out of times and did not finishes at Paris-Roubaix, to suddenly finishing third the next year. Oh yeah, I forgot, Vanendert was out of shape without exception in every single mountain he rode upon before this Tour, now suddenly capable of producing 5.9 w/kg, an amazing effort that is comparable to the best efforts shown on longer climbs (40+ minutes) in the last 2 years in GT's.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Lanark said:
Your examples are quite poor to justify Vanendert's progress. Boonen and Andy Schleck are pretty much the opposite of Vanendert. These are people who showed tremendous talent the first time they got a chance to prove themselves on their terrain (cobbles and Grand Tours).

Yes, Boonen finished third in his first Paris-Roubaix. But Vanendert's carreer is nothing like that. It would be more akin to Boonen having a couple of out of times and did not finishes at Paris-Roubaix, to suddenly finishing third the next year. Oh yeah, I forgot, Vanendert was out of shape without exception in every single mountain he rode upon before this Tour, now suddenly capable of producing 5.9 w/kg, an amazing effort that is comparable to the best efforts shown on longer climbs (40+ minutes) in the last 2 years in GT's.

My examples aren't poor. You just showed you know nothing about his career. Look at his long list of injuries. This is his first real season without any injuries. Let's see Andy Schleck riding up Zoncolan with a hernia ;)

Vanendert was also a domestique in every race he started up to this point. What are you mumbling about really? It's only because VDB2 crashed out that he had a chance to ride for him self. Are you expecting him to sprint up mountains after getting water bottles all day for his team mates? Well, I guess you're right after all, he's no Andy ;)

I bet you'll be totally surprised if Boonen won the RVV next year after his crappy year so far ;) Because injuries or illness obviously don't affect the way you race according to you.
 
Aug 2, 2010
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Lanark said:
Your examples are quite poor to justify Vanendert's progress. Boonen and Andy Schleck are pretty much the opposite of Vanendert. These are people who showed tremendous talent the first time they got a chance to prove themselves on their terrain (cobbles and Grand Tours).

Yes, Boonen finished third in his first Paris-Roubaix. But Vanendert's carreer is nothing like that. It would be more akin to Boonen having a couple of out of times and did not finishes at Paris-Roubaix, to suddenly finishing third the next year. Oh yeah, I forgot, Vanendert was out of shape without exception in every single mountain he rode upon before this Tour, now suddenly capable of producing 5.9 w/kg, an amazing effort that is comparable to the best efforts shown on longer climbs (40+ minutes) in the last 2 years in GT's.

lotto...all of them, especially phil.
voeckler...

i wouldn't mind if they hadn't built their careers saying how "low-level" and stuff like that guys like valverde are.

i hope they burn in hell, after being burned on earth.

yes, i am bad.
 
Aug 2, 2010
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El Pistolero said:
My examples aren't poor. You just showed you know nothing about his career. Look at his long list of injuries. This is his first real season without any injuries. Let's see Andy Schleck riding up Zoncolan with a hernia ;)

Vanendert was also a domestique in every race he started up to this point. What are you mumbling about really? It's only because VDB2 crashed out that he had a chance to ride for him self. Are you expecting him to sprint up mountains after getting water bottles all day for his team mates? Well, I guess you're right after all, he's no Andy ;)

I bet you'll be totally surprised if Boonen won the RVV next year after his crappy year so far ;) Because injuries or illness obviously don't affect the way you race according to you.

again no one can have a proper discussion with you.
 

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