Jonas Vingegaard: Godzilla, the King of Monsters

[Blobs]

I think Landis is an apt example. He was a byproduct of an era where PED techniques were well drilled in the peloton, just like Vingegaard. It means he's someone who was nothing until he benefited from know-how already in place. And 'legal limits' were smashed to smithereens long before 2006, i.e. Landis just happened to be the moron who got caught.

The rest I presume (because this is all just speculative, isn't it?) is simply down to rider responsiveness to dope programs. I think Vingegaard is a mediocre bike rider without a cycling brain, i.e. he's someone who can only go fast when he's prepped by his team's medical experts & the DS then micromanages his racing via the earpiece.

I saw him literally do a snap course correction on the descent of the Tourmalet yesterday whilst trying to drop Pog downhill before linking up with WvA (he really almost crashed himself right there). He's a literal idiot, in my book. So is Grischa Niermann.

Dude I'm. sorry to say it, but that's a *** take. A total cope.

I'm going to bed now, but I can't wait to banter with you guys tomorrow

 

[Rackham]

Dude I'm. sorry to say it, but that's a *** take. A total cope.

I'm going to bed now, but I can't wait to banter with you guys tomorrow

It's 09:33 here, i.e. I'm awake & fully dialled in myself with PEP's (performance enhanced posts), i.e. I have a never ending supply of sh*t takes for people to enjoy.

I've been watching this stuff since the 1990's & we have totally gone back in time to an era where 'natural talents' (insofar as they showed signs of being good at a young age or in their early career before things really took off) are surpassed by the likes of Floyd Landis, i.e. an era where no-name gregarios become stronger than their leaders because the needles are doing their magic.

I can't wait for Sunday tbh.

 

[ppanther92]

What is it you think they did with Vingegaard, that they didn't do to the rest of their riders? Why is he better?

JV is by far the most on point team in Tour de France preparation in the field. They now for several years came and come super sharp on a team-level. On paper we at least had the discussion this year that UAE might be up there with all their signings but JV is again the strongest team confidently. So I don't think they have to do anything different with Vingegaard.

 

[Ripper]

Well, I think this particular thread was started by Netserk after last years Granon stage. I just try to understand what we are watching. And I am not of the “cycling is simply entertainment” view. It is also sport and therefore should at least try to be believable.

Your comment seemed a deflection because it avoided discussing Vingegaard.

On the bolder part, I also agree with that. Pog is more popular than Vingegaard. That’s because he is a more exciting rider - in a similar way to how Contador was (at least in Grand Tours). I wonder if Vingegaard would be more exciting if he didn’t ride with such a strong team? Then we really see how good he is, doping or not.

I doubt being on a different team would make a big difference with how people view V man. Personally, I believe people like a rider who they simply think is more attractive/charismatic on and off the bike.

And being that I've raced my bike for over 30 years, I definitely don't see bike racing as the WWE. But I have no illusions about professional sports.

This is the V-man's thread, so let me be clear with some content about the V man. That was 1) an absurdly powerful attack on the Tourmalet, and 2) tactically daft on the final climb. Regarding the latter, with the energy saved by drafting farther back through the valley, and also being able to draft up the shallower grades of the climb, Vingo would need to have been massively stronger than Pogo to simply drop him. Was it hubris or ignorance? No idea, but I am glad that the race is still close.

BTW, this race has so many parallels in its protagonists to the 2007 Tour that it is a bit eerie. I guess Vingo isn't as unpopular as Rasmussen

 

[Blobs]

It's 09:33 here, i.e. I'm awake & fully dialled in myself with PEP's (performance enhanced posts), i.e. I have a never ending supply of sh*t takes for people to enjoy.

I've been watching this stuff since the 1990's & we have totally gone back in time to an era where 'natural talents' (insofar as they showed signs of being good at a young age or in their early career before things really took off) are surpassed by the likes of Floyd Landis, i.e. an era where no-name gregarios become stronger than their leaders because the needles are doing their magic.

I can't wait for Sunday tbh.

Floyd Landis and his epic palmares seems like a "good faith" comparison

Who are the natural talents and who are the dope machines of the current era, in your opinion?

Let me guess:
Dopers: Vingegaard, and the rest of Jumbo, except Roglic
Naturals: All the others

 

[nayr497]

Gregarios and idiots, you know it's an interesting Tour de France when fans are using these words to describe the defending champion!

Imagine trying to explain to say you're average American football fan that the leader of the Tour de France is actually a terrible bike racer!

 

[ashhutch1997]

there is no way you will convince me that bikes 15 years ago were faster, just no way; only in tyres rolling resistance there is at least (probably more) 20 watts difference

I never said they were faster, I said they were lighter and work better, I also said they are more areo dynamic now. But on a steep climb weight is what matters most, meaning they would be faster.
Also I see you posted a GCN video, there is a certain GCN presenter that races my local crit series on a bike from 5+ years ago, despite him going on about how great modern bikes are on camera (They are paid to promote everything), and he could use any bike he wanted.
There are also many brands that don't make areo specific bikes anymore, are you seriously telling me that the Specialized tarmac SL7 is faster than the old Venge from 5 years ago? No it isn't.

 

[Kwibus]

What happened is accusing people stopped selling.

This doesnt make sense.

 

[Red Rick]

This doesnt make sense.

Sky was the boogieman. They were hated, but they stopped winning. Then Pogacar appears and alongside him a new bunch of super stars that are all popular and somehow nobody important in cycling really wants to question.

 

[Cookster15]

BTW, this race has so many parallels in its protagonists to the 2007 Tour that it is a bit eerie. I guess Vingo isn't as unpopular as Rasmussen

In 2007 Rasmussen was pulled by his own team as it was so ridiculous and frankly embarrassing.

As for 2007 having so many parallels in its protagonists, who is the 2023 parallel to Cadel Evans?

 

[Ripper]

In 2007 Rasmussen was pulled by his own team as it was so ridiculous and frankly embarrassing.

As for 2007 having so many parallels in its protagonists, who is the 2023 parallel to Cadel Evans?

I should have specified protagonists before Rasmussen was pulled. Pogo would obviously be Contador.

Rasmussen was embarrassing. But keep in mind that Contador was duking it out watt bomb to watt bomb with him, and really was equally embarrassing at the time

 

[Cookster15]

I should have specified protagonists before Rasmussen was pulled. Pogo would obviously be Contador.

Rasmussen was embarrassing. But keep in mind that Contador was duking it out watt bomb to watt bomb with him, and really was equally embarrassing at the time

I totally agree with your take. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Kwibus]

Sky was the boogieman. They were hated, but they stopped winning. Then Pogacar appears and alongside him a new bunch of super stars that are all popular and somehow nobody important in cycling really wants to question.

I dont agree. There have been plenty of questioning. There just hasnt been anything besides improved performance thats suspicious. There currently is nothing , no leads, nothing.

Atleast not that we know off.

Most dubious part is the entire UAE management. Or Piepoli training Mas.

 

[Kwibus]

Also if it comes out that there is systematic doping at Jumbo the management wont have a life anymore. The riders that were caught in 90s and 00s allready had a hard time in NL while we all also understood that that era was so dirty and corrupt we also understood that few could resist.
There will be no understanding if people get caught now. Absolutely none. Its going to be so ugly... that I dont believe the team is involved in willingly using forbidden 'stuff'.

Maybe something new thats not a list... could be..

 

[Red Rick]

Also if it comes out that there is systematic doping at Jumbo the management wont have a life anymore. The riders that were caught in 90s and 00s allready had a hard time in NL while we all also understood that that era was so dirty and corrupt we also understood that few could resist.
There will be no understanding if people get caught now. Absolutely none. Its going to be so ugly... that I dont believe the team is involved in willingly using forbidden 'stuff'.

Maybe something new thats not a list... could be..

Confessing straight up gets you a TV job here it's not so bad lol.

It's always a risk/reward calculation, and in the current climate the risk doesn't seem to be high at all.

I really don't understand fear of public opinion being a legit argument.

People don't really care about doping. They look the other way any chance they get.

 

[BillyTwinner]

Someone explain to me how Jonas pushing 7.46watts on climb when Lance was averaging 6.1?
I like the show they put on but to say that they are clean is far from reality.
It does not matter about aero, rolling resistance when We talk about watts/kg
They are beyond human pontential

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Also if it comes out that there is systematic doping at Jumbo the management wont have a life anymore. The riders that were caught in 90s and 00s allready had a hard time in NL while we all also understood that that era was so dirty and corrupt we also understood that few could resist.
There will be no understanding if people get caught now. Absolutely none. Its going to be so ugly... that I dont believe the team is involved in willingly using forbidden 'stuff'.

Maybe something new thats not a list... could be..

If anything the management appears to be much more involved in what goes on in the team than was the case in the Rabobank days (although that view could very well change within the next decade). There were of course team supported doping practices going on around 2007, but guys like Rasmussen, Boogerd and Dekker all went beyond that. Right now you have the feeling, that Vingegaard, Roglič and Van Aert can't even go to the toilet without the team knowing the exact amount of fluids that comes out of their bodies.

 

[BillyTwinner]

some of you watched ICARUS on netflix? it is amazing !
90% of the sport is doped
Epo has a window of 4 hours , after that can not be detected
They created perfect drug

 

[Red Rick]

If anything the management appears to be much more involved in what goes on in the team than was the case in the Rabobank days (although that view could very well change within the next decade). There were of course team supported doping practices going on around 2007, but guys like Rasmussen, Boogerd and Dekker all went beyond that. Right now you have the feeling, that Vingegaard, Roglič and Van Aert can't even go to the toilet without the team knowing the exact amount of fluids that comes out of their bodies.

Spoiler

Wout: "My wife is pregnant again."

Heyboer: "So how much fluid did it take you?"

 

[pastronef]

Spoiler

Wout: "My wife is pregnant again."

Heyboer: "So how much fluid did it take you?"

also, remember it's illegal to get your chain lubed from the car while riding

 

[Rackham]

Spoiler

Wout: "My wife is pregnant again."

Heyboer: "So how much fluid did it take you?"

Jumbo Visma TEAM RADIO:

"Okay Wout, looking good, all the way to the line, you've got it now Wout, come on".

"Good job Wout, good job, you did your best".

 

[ciranda]

this is what we call "selling a story" aka media propganda

Huh do you mean it's a made up story to cover something up? It's like, facts. He had bad crashes, all kinds of issues as an under unlike the hundreds of apparently legitimate riders that go straight from pro junior team to wt development team to lower half top ten wt stage race filler.

And as the data is there for everyone to see; every time he got to chance to ride tough races from age 19 he was at the front. He does not have a gregario type profile in any way. The claims he was signed as a tractor Declerq type rider are too stupid and disingenous.

Obviously he has good race understanding and tactical intelligence too. The reason why he got noticed and signed to a team as under was also due to wins and good performances in danish races, something you can't do without having a good head as well as legs. For sure he should have gone with instinct on the 6th stage instead of following the team car's glorious plan involving more van Aert heroism.

 

[BillyTwinner]

The best test results achieved by Armstrong at the University of Texas between the ages of 21 and 28 was an estimated maximum aerobic power output of ~510W ( 6.8 W. kg-1 body mass ). This was associated with a VO2max of 6.10 L.
vingegaard smashed it.

 

[Rob5091]

Danish physiologist believes Pogacar and Vingegaard are not doping: "Armstrong and Pantani with EPO would blow them away on long passes"

Jonas Vingegaard and Tadej Pogacar are currently in the mids

cyclinguptodate.com

Jonas Vingegaard and Tadej Pogacar are currently in the midst of the fight to win the Tour de France. On the Danish website Feltet, sports physiologist Nikolai Baastrup, head of the Department of Nutrition at the University of Copenhagen, has conducted an investigation on both cyclists and concluded that they are not doping. In fact, he wanted to compare their performance with that of Lance Armstrong and Marco Pantani, giving a curious opinion.

"I have analyzed his training data, stress tests, medical analysis and much more data from the last few years and there is something that allows me to give enormous credibility to his performances and that is that he has had a stable sporting development, his achievements have not been something that comes out of the blue, overnight as happened in the times of the free epo bar and blood transfusions," commented the Dane about Vingegaard in statements translated by the Diario del Triatlón.

 

[meat puppet]

Max aerobic power is protocol dependent, typically achieved at the end of a stepwise vo2max test, but on the road would be associated with a 4-6min sustained effort.

Vingo held similar w/kg for a lot longer.

And if I remember correctly, Lance's fully doped up threshold power (think 45-60min efforts) was around 480-510w. Stated it in a podcast quite recently.

Oxygen vector dope works, even if Lance probably was not clean at the time of testing.