Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[pastronef]

If Vingegaard and Jumbo keep taking the p*ss, I can see there being a big police raid like 1998/06.

based on what? do the police read twitter and the Clinic? is there any investigation going on about Jumbo?
I mean, we can blab as long as we want on here, but the police needs something. and it showed last year, when they followed the French suspicions helped by Vayer and his friends, and they found fck all in Bahrain's raid, and it all ended in waste of time and harassment of Bahrain's personnel with the raid in their homes like they were criminals.

 

[topt]

The bikes now are heavier and slower than 10/15 years ago.

this is just not true

 

[topt]

It's pretty obvious our heroes are much faster than those 10 years ago but I'm asking about bikes from 20-25 years ago to compare to superheroes era.

you have quite a few comparisons done by GCN on youtube; an example, a modern racing bike is just as fast or even faster than the super aero Lotus TT bike from 25 years ago

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4vUncijjDo

 

[ashhutch1997]

this is just not true

They literally used to add weights to their bikes to meet the UCI weight limit, these days riders are riding bikes that weight over 8kg!
I've raced for over 20 years and these modern bikes are much worse than 10/15 years ago, despite what GCN try and tell people.
They might be more areo now, but that's another topic.
I don't want to argue or fall out over this, just saying what I've experienced in the last 20 years working with high end bikes!!

 

[veganrob]

They literally used to add weights to their bikes to meet the UCI weight limit, these days riders are riding bikes that weight over 8kg!
I've raced for over 20 years and these modern bikes are much worse than 10/15 years ago, despite what GCN try and tell people.
They might be more areo now, but that's another topic.
I don't want to argue or fall out over this, just saying what I've experienced in the last 20 years working with high end bikes!!

Can buy a size 56 off the shelf with a PM under 7kg.

 

[topt]

They literally used to add weights to their bikes to meet the UCI weight limit, these days riders are riding bikes that weight over 8kg!
I've raced for over 20 years and these modern bikes are much worse than 10/15 years ago, despite what GCN try and tell people.
They might be more areo now, but that's another topic.
I don't want to argue or fall out over this, just saying what I've experienced in the last 20 years working with high end bikes!!

there is no way you will convince me that bikes 15 years ago were faster, just no way; only in tyres rolling resistance there is at least (probably more) 20 watts difference

 

[Kwibus]

I mean, that's just UAE saying things, i.e. pro cycling teams say a lot of things. Taking a giant pinch of salt is usually advised with regards to the explanations they give regarding the how & why of their performance levels.

Vaunting the technology & professionalism angle isn't new in sport. The Soviet era Olympic champions were all mega scientifically enhanced super athletes, for example (i.e. the propaganda said they had best training regimens & best use of science in their era). Tampering with blood has always been key in pro sports & I think it's so ingrained in cycling (& sport in general) that these people genuinely do not even think it's "doping" per se. It's just 'normal' according to their little bubble.

And it's not like it benefits everyone equally, i.e. for some reason a rider like Tobias Foss (who won the Tour de l'Avenir) hasn't evolved into a GT rider whilst Vingegaard (who never did much at youth level) has become the best climber in pro cycling.

I also wrote that it doesn't work for everyone. A typical clinic member will conclude that this rider didn't take doping and the ones that improve take doping.
So all those riders that don't use don't tell anyone about it?

All the red flags and signs that dubious stuff was going on back in the 90s are currently not here. Are there any leads besides improved performance? There were plenty of accusations in the 90s based on links between riders and doctors and what not. I mean the limit on hematocrit in 1998 etc. It was obvious something was happening back then, they knew it.
Is there something like that now?

 

[ciranda]

BTW, just my opinion here but I've been reading for months & months now (a few years really) some back & forth between Vingegaard fans versus anyone who criticizes him (in the main forums here but namely on social media) with fans defending him as an 'attacking' rider whilst others say he's boring.

But for me, it's the how & why we're even seeing what we're seeing which is the important part, i.e. like how Jumbo (aka the most well oiled, well drilled team which supplanted SkyIneos on the 'we're the better pros' scale) just almost 'miraculously' produced the best climber of the century after LPDBF & the 2020 disaster.

It's just... too ridiculous to be believable. I mean what were the odds? Astronomically thin, I reckon. And no, he's not an attacking rider. He just drops massive watts ala Armstrong in his best years & drops everyone. Cycling is so easy when it's... so easy.

This take is so lame. This a kid that loved cycling from an early age, convinced his parents to go on vacation so he could try Alpe d'Huez and then did 43 minutes something on it aged fifteen, that was often knocked out by the excitement of being able to race that the vomited before races as late as the under 23 world's and the first stage race he raced in as a pro.

He's like the complete opposite of a product.

It's just... too ridiculous to be believable. I mean what were the odds? Astronomically thin, I reckon. And no, he's not an attacking rider. He just drops massive watts ala Armstrong in his best years & drops everyone. Cycling is so easy when it's... so easy.

And this meaningless part can be said about anyone from Pogacar to van der Vleuten to van der Poel to myself passing other cyclists on the way home.

 

[topt]

This take is so lame. This a kid that loved cycling from an early age, convinced his parents to go on vacation so he could try Alpe d'Huez and then did 43 minutes something on it aged fifteen, that was often knocked out by the excitement of being able to race that the vomited before races as late as the under 23 world's and the first stage race he raced in as a pro.

He's like the complete opposite of a product.



And this meaningless part can be said about anyone from Pogacar to van der Vleuten to van der Poel to myself passing other cyclists on the way home.

this is what we call "selling a story" aka media propganda

 

[Red Rick]

I also wrote that it doesn't work for everyone. A typical clinic member will conclude that this rider didn't take doping and the ones that improve take doping.
So all those riders that don't use don't tell anyone about it?

All the red flags and signs that dubious stuff was going on back in the 90s are currently not here. Are there any leads besides improved performance? There were plenty of accusations in the 90s based on links between riders and doctors and what not. I mean the limit on hematocrit in 1998 etc. It was obvious something was happening back then, they knew it.
Is there something like that now?

What happened is accusing people stopped selling.

 

[Tim Cahill]

The argument was never that a gradual increase in professionalism and equipment leads to riders climbing a little faster, which can be expected. It's that the level seemed to completely explode in a non-linear fashion after the lockdown period in 2020, it is not a change you need to be looking at, it's the early 90s style rate of change.

They can put lipstick on a yellow pig, feed it baking soda and call it Jumbo, but they will always be good old Rabobank.

(Although I loved that Belkin/Blanco variation with Mollema, Sep and Ten Dam)

 

[Ripper]

We need to merge the Pogo/Vingo threads into a super mutant combo thread

 

[Ripper]

BTW, just my opinion here but I've been reading for months & months now (a few years really) some back & forth between Vingegaard fans versus anyone who criticizes him (in the main forums here but namely on social media) with fans defending him as an 'attacking' rider whilst others say he's boring.

But for me, it's the how & why we're even seeing what we're seeing which is the important part, i.e. like how Jumbo (aka the most well oiled, well drilled team which supplanted SkyIneos on the 'we're the better pros' scale) just almost 'miraculously' produced the best climber of the century after LPDBF & the 2020 disaster.

It's just... too ridiculous to be believable. I mean what were the odds? Astronomically thin, I reckon. And no, he's not an attacking rider. He just drops massive watts ala Armstrong in his best years & drops everyone. Cycling is so easy when it's... so easy.

This argument is so subjectively based simply on who you like. The exact same could be said for others ... Pogo, vd Poel, etc. I get you don't like Vingo or Jisma, but it's all 'easier' when you can beat the *** out of your opponents at will. What we have now are two mutants going nuts, which is actually a bit funny.

Pro bike racing, so glad my kids are not interested in going that direction!

 

[Cookster15]

This argument is so subjectively based simply on who you like. The exact same could be said for others ... Pogo, vd Poel, etc. I get you don't like Vingo or Jisma, but it's all 'easier' when you can beat the *** out of your opponents at will. What we have now are two mutants going nuts, which is actually a bit funny.

Pro bike racing, so glad my kids are not interested in going that direction!

This is a deflection. I actually agree with Rackham’s 2nd paragraph…..

like how Jumbo (aka the most well oiled, well drilled team which supplanted SkyIneos on the 'we're the better pros' scale) just almost 'miraculously' produced the best climber of the century after LPDBF & the 2020 disaster

His logic and reason isn’t just subjective. Any layman who casually checks their respective records prior to the 2021 TdF will spot the problem. How can this meteoric rise be explained? I think it’s explained by the last sentence. Yes my opinion but this is why we come here.

The other point touched on is double standards here. Strip away any doping employed by both of these riders is Vingegaard really a better talent than Pogacar? I am unconvinced. Cycling should not be WWF wresting IMO. There has to be some semblance of reality.

 

[Ripper]

This is a deflection. I actually agree with Rackham’s 2nd paragraph…..


His logic and reason isn’t just subjective. Any layman who casually checks their respective records prior to the 2021 TdF will spot the problem. How can this meteoric rise be explained? I think it’s explained by the last sentence. Yes my opinion but this is why we come here.

The other point touched on is double standards here. Strip away any doping employed by both of these riders is Vingegaard really a better talent than Pogacar? I am unconvinced. Cycling should not be WWF wresting IMO. There has to be some semblance of reality.

My comment to the poster's bolted text was hardly a deflection. I am pointing out the hypocrisy in the post.

I don't find either rider particularly believable. I don't doubt that they are talented, but there is some seriously extraterrestrial shiite being brought forth

 

[meat puppet]

The climbing times should be self-explanatory, really.

 

[Cookster15]

My comment to the poster's bolted text was hardly a deflection. I am pointing out the hypocrisy in the post.

I don't find either rider particularly believable. I don't doubt that they are talented, but there is some seriously extraterrestrial shiite being brought forth

Well, I think this particular thread was started by Netserk after last years Granon stage. I just try to understand what we are watching. And I am not of the “cycling is simply entertainment” view. It is also sport and therefore should at least try to be believable.

Your comment seemed a deflection because it avoided discussing Vingegaard.

On the bolder part, I also agree with that. Pog is more popular than Vingegaard. That’s because he is a more exciting rider - in a similar way to how Contador was (at least in Grand Tours). I wonder if Vingegaard would be more exciting if he didn’t ride with such a strong team? Then we really see how good he is, doping or not.

 

[Rackham]

My comment to the poster's bolted text was hardly a deflection. I am pointing out the hypocrisy in the post.

I don't find either rider particularly believable. I don't doubt that they are talented, but there is some seriously extraterrestrial shiite being brought forth

You can call it hypocrisy on my behalf (although I fail to actually see 'how' I'm being hypocritical, even though I do admit I don't particularly like these guys). The fact is the history of Jumbo Visma lends credence to some speculation which I don't think anyone can just handwave away, i.e. insofar as we're talking about a team which pretty much casually replaced Roglič as their team leader in the Tour because he wasn't what they wanted, for reasons. At a time when he was easily the second best GT rider in the world.

It's pretty shocking, is it not? i.e. to see how a no-name 23 year old gregario doing bidon work in the 2020 Vuelta was brought to a level whereby he could podium the Tour 7 months later (for "tactical reasons", i.e. even then Jumbo described Vingegaard as their secret weapon in order to two prong attack Pog), after which his 2022 Tour was even more shocking (the Dauphiné was an awkward spectacle where it looked like the biggest difficulty Vinge faced was not accidentally dropping Rog). I mean I do get how some people can see this as pretty much morally & technically equal in terms of WTF (i.e. UAE versus Jumbo on the clinical spectrum), but there's a cynicism & shattering of suspension of disbelief on the Jumbo side of things which makes them a very hard pill to swallow in the Tour de France. Their riders turn into supermen in July & the whole endeavour has Festina 1997 written all over it (i.e. when Bruno Roussel was hellbent on smashing Telekom with team numbers in the mountains & they made sure their riders were all medically prepped for their roles). Jumbo simply held a grudge after LBDBF 2020 & enacted revenge in their own way.

Even yesterday their hyper aggressive tactics where they blew everything apart on the Tourmalet in a display of 'total cycling' again was simply nuts, i.e. a repeat of Granon of sorts (which FYI is the antithesis of how the Giro side of their team approached that goal, so there's a schizophrenia element at play as well which is specific to the Tour, whereby the TdF Jumbo DS's are far more cavalier & wasteful with energy levels than they are during the rest of the year, like fatigue isn't an issue... for reasons).

And yes, I do believe Pogačar is a bigger 'talent' than Vingegaard, i.e. Vinge who IMO barely even resembles a real pro cyclist. He's a Froome bis, i.e. a lab product developed by a team which had a pretty good foundation in clinical matters already & they simply dialled the numbers in for various riders in the team & hit the jackpot with Vinge in terms of responsiveness.

That's my opinion & it's born out of watching cycling for over 25 years & paying very close attention to Jumbo in particular. And for sure, I admit, I'm a Rog fan, even when taking everything into account, i.e. he's a rider who displayed he is at least 'human' & has real limitations which go hand-in-hand with his exploits & make him way more endearing as a rider than any "bionic man" can be.

And sorry for the long post (probably my longest yet).

 

[Blobs]

You can call it hypocrisy on my behalf (although I fail to actually see 'how' I'm being hypocritical, even though I do admit I don't particularly like these guys). The fact is the history of Jumbo Visma lends credence to some speculation which I don't think anyone can just handwave away, i.e. insofar as we're talking about a team which pretty much casually replaced Roglič as their team leader in the Tour because he wasn't what they wanted, for reasons. At a time when he was easily the second best GT rider in the world.

It's pretty shocking, is it not? i.e. to see how a no-name 23 year old gregario doing bidon work in the 2020 Vuelta was brought to a level whereby he could podium the Tour 7 months later (for "tactical reasons", i.e. even then Jumbo described Vingegaard as their secret weapon in order to two prong attack Pog), after which his 2022 Tour was even more shocking (the Dauphiné was an awkward spectacle where it looked like the biggest difficulty Vinge faced was not accidentally dropping Rog). I mean I do get how some people can see this as pretty much morally & technically equal in terms of WTF (i.e. UAE versus Jumbo on the clinical spectrum), but there's a cynicism & shattering of suspension of disbelief on the Jumbo side of things which makes them a very hard pill to swallow in the Tour de France. Their riders turn into supermen in July & the whole endeavour has Festina 1997 written all over it (i.e. when Bruno Roussel was hellbent on smashing Telekom with team numbers in the mountains & they made sure their riders were all medically prepped for their roles). Jumbo simply held a grudge after LBDBF 2020 & enacted revenge in their own way.

Even yesterday their hyper aggressive tactics where they blew everything apart on the Tourmalet in a display of 'total cycling' again was simply nuts, i.e. a repeat of Granon of sorts (which FYI is the antithesis of how the Giro side of their team approached that goal, so there's a schizophrenia element at play as well which is specific to the Tour, whereby the TdF Jumbo DS's are far more cavalier & wasteful with energy levels than they are during the rest of the year, like fatigue isn't an issue... for reasons).

And yes, I do believe Pogačar is a bigger 'talent' than Vingegaard, i.e. Vinge who IMO barely even resembles a real pro cyclist. He's a Froome bis, i.e. a lab product developed by a team which had a pretty good foundation in clinical matters already & they simply dialled the numbers in for various riders in the team & hit the jackpot with Vinge in terms of responsiveness.

That's my opinion & it's born out of watching cycling for over 25 years & paying very close attention to Jumbo in particular. And for sure, I admit, I'm a Rog fan, even when taking everything into account, i.e. he's a rider who displayed he is at least 'human' & has real limitations which go hand-in-hand with his exploits & make him way more endearing as a rider than any "bionic man" can be.

And sorry for the long post (probably my longest yet).

Summary: Everyone in Jumbo is a dirty cheat, except Roglic who is a good natural talent.

 

[Rackham]

Summary: Everyone in Jumbo is a dirty cheat, except Roglic who is a good natural talent.

That's not what I said. I said "even when taking everything into account", i.e. with everything that implies.

I'm not stupid, I know how cycling works. But I also know Jumbo is a very greedy Tour obsessed outfit & they'll do anything (even throw their own riders under a bus) to win in July.

 

[Blobs]

That's not what I said. I said "even when taking everything into account", i.e. with everything that implies.

I'm not stupid, I know how cycling works. But I also know Jumbo is a very greedy Tour obsessed outfit & they'll do anything (even throw their own riders under a bus) to win in July.

Do you think they had the stuff to make Rog a Tour winner, but he chose not to take it?

 

[Rackham]

Do you think they had the stuff to make Rog a Tour winner, but he chose not to take it?

No?

With Vingegaard we're simply seeing a more extreme example of Landis or Froome, i.e. a rider from nowhere brought into a well oiled setup who benefits from the experts already in place. Landis is an apt example, i.e. he didn't do anything himself or pioneer anything (& he was a nothing rider), he simply took the program Postal had in place & hit the jackpot. It's a similar scenario.

In 2016 when Rog won an ITT in the Giro, Jumbo hadn't a clue what they were doing (they admitted as much themselves). It took them years to get everything up to standard. Vinge landed in the right place at the right time; especially insofar as Jumbo were specifically looking to build a second GC leader for the Tour because of their Pog derangement syndrome after 2020.

 

[Riek s]

The argument was never that a gradual increase in professionalism and equipment leads to riders climbing a little faster, which can be expected. It's that the level seemed to completely explode in a non-linear fashion after the lockdown period in 2020, it is not a change you need to be looking at, it's the early 90s style rate of change.

They can put lipstick on a yellow pig, feed it baking soda and call it Jumbo, but they will always be good old Rabobank.

(Although I loved that Belkin/Blanco variation with Mollema, Sep and Ten Dam)

I think this is the key.
Bikes have changed over the last decenia. Mostly in aero and rolling resistance. Weight has not changed a lot due to the min limit of 6.7kg. (pre 2020 we had 7kg bikes...). But we haven't seen a dramatic increase in performance as we saw in 2020 after lockdowns and a technological break. (it wasn't even possible to go to the windtunnel, as per JV on the heroics of Vingegaard)

What we see since 2020, is the jump we saw in the 90ies. peloton avec deux vitesse. Even Demaré stated in 2021 the peloton suddenly went a lot faster. (this is also the breakthrough year of Vingegaard who couldn't do anything relevant before the speeds went up).

 

[Blobs]

No?

With Vingegaard we're simply seeing a more extreme example of Landis or Froome, i.e. a rider from nowhere brought into a well oiled setup who benefits from the experts already in place. Landis is an apt example, i.e. he didn't do anything himself or pioneer anything (& he was a nothing rider), he simply took the program Postal had in place & hit the jackpot. It's a similar scenario.

In 2016 when Rog won an ITT in the Giro, Jumbo hadn't a clue what they were doing (they admitted as much themselves). It took them years to get everything up to standard. Vinge landed in the right place at the right time; especially insofar as Jumbo were specifically looking to build a second GC leader for the Tour because of their Pog derangement syndrome after 2020.

Landis stretched it way beyond legal limits, so that's not comparable.

What is it you think they did with Vingegaard, that they didn't do to the rest of their riders? Why is he better?

 

[Rackham]

Landis stretched it way beyond legal limits, so that's not comparable.

What is it you think they did with Vingegaard, that they didn't do to the rest of their riders? Why is he better?

I think Landis is an apt example. He was a byproduct of an era where PED techniques were well drilled in the peloton, just like Vingegaard. It means he's someone who was nothing until he benefited from know-how already in place. And 'legal limits' were smashed to smithereens long before 2006, i.e. Landis just happened to be the moron who got caught.

The rest I presume (because this is all just speculative, isn't it?) is simply down to rider responsiveness to dope programs. I think Vingegaard is a mediocre bike rider without a cycling brain, i.e. he's someone who can only go fast when he's prepped by his team's medical experts & the DS then micromanages his racing via the earpiece.

I saw him literally do a snap course correction on the descent of the Tourmalet yesterday whilst trying to drop Pog downhill before linking up with WvA (he really almost crashed himself right there). He's a literal idiot, in my book. So is Grischa Niermann.