Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[SHAD0W93]

There are some comments on YouTube along these lines, under the highlight videos for stage 16

'simply, Jonas had 4-5 high altitude training camps, while Pogi is hanging around to much with his gf' is one I like a lot.

But I thought Jonas couldn’t do it without his families love? Are they saying Pog doesn’t love his gf?

Once upon a time, Jonas Vingegaard was Ricky Cousins - Escape Collective

Maybe all the stiff Dane is missing is a relatable haircut.

escapecollective.com

 

[theyoungest]

I've heard the same from both DVB and Rohan Dennis, yet both have fairly sharply regressed since they left Ineos

In fact I can only really think of Laporte who is better now than he was at his old team (Cofidis)

Van Baarle hasn't regressed at all. Dennis... well, he's Rohan Dennis, what can you say. In the Giro he was quite good.

But what about Nathan Van Hooydonck, for instance?

 

[parabolizer]

Can somebody explain to me the ridiculous difference between the Dauphine TT and the TDF TT (how can Vingegaard go from 2nd place, very similar time to the top finishers, to being 8% faster than the best finisher excluding Pog?)?

In 1 month, he went from being on par with the top finishers to being 3 minutes ahead, in a shorter TT (granted, with a little more climbing).

He must have really eaten some fantastic food in that 1 month time period...

Also, does anybody else think it is odd that 59kg Vingegaard had the fastest max speed in the TT?

 

[theyoungest]

Can somebody explain to me the ridiculous difference between the Dauphine TT and the TDF TT (how can Vingegaard go from 2nd place, very similar time to the top finishers, to being 8% faster than the best finisher excluding Pog?)?

In 1 month, he went from being on par with the top finishers to being 3 minutes ahead, in a shorter TT (granted, with a little more climbing).

He must have really eaten some fantastic food in that 1 month time period...

Also, does anybody else think it is odd that 59kg Vingegaard had the fastest max speed in the TT?

Quite an important distinction. This TT had way more climbing. Put this TT in the Dauphiné and he beats Mikkel Bjerg a hundred times out of a hundred. And he creates a bigger gap to the rest of the field. Basically, you just can't compare the two.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Van Baarle hasn't regressed at all. Dennis... well, he's Rohan Dennis, what can you say. In the Giro he was quite good.

But what about Nathan Van Hooydonck, for instance?

He won Roubaix and was second in Flanders last year, not saying he's been terrible this year, merely pretty decent, done a decent job at The Tour but not quite the same peak. Dennis was leading Hart over the Stelvio the year before he left Ineos, second only to Ganna in the TTs, again looking serviceable but nowhere near as spectacular since.

Not sure about the early career of Van Hooydonck or whether he showed potential at CCC the year before he left, he looks a very strong rider but at the same time was 24 at CCC, 27 now so you would expect some progression at least.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Vingegaard is the only one:
- to take training seriously
- to reckon the parcours
- to be surrounded with love
- going 100% in this TT. It's only the TDF after all, who cares about a top 10 anyway. This was clearly seen when he was dropped by Bilbao the next day (who by the way took 14s in that last climb, this really shows that Pog clearly doesn't know when to attack)

Also Pog massively underperform, he only gained 1'30 on Wout what a loser.

Surrounded with love ❤️❤️❤️

 

[hrotha]

I think there's rather a difference between having a better nutrition plan and having found some magic potion that makes you go 8% faster. It can't be the ketones, reportedly Vingegaard doesn't take those (of course, nobody in this thread will believe that either )

Yeah there's a difference, the difference being that a magic potion is overwhelmingly more likely than better nutrition giving you an 8% edge

Also I feel the magic potion thing is kind of a strawman, I mean it's not literally a strawman because there's actual people out there saying that Jumbo must have access to a magic potion/new products or whatever, but still. It's quite likely that Jumbo has access roughly to the same stuff everybody else has and that they're just using it better or more brazenly

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Yeah, what hrotha said. Very unlikely that Jumbo has some secret sauce. They're just willing to push the envelope on the same sauce available to other teams farther than anyone else.

 

[SHAD0W93]

My only question would be where was the diet last year or did they just do more research into Vinge with his DNA to find out the best nutrition l after the fact?

 

[ElDesordenado]

I have seen Vingegaard a couple of times now in Danish media responding to the doping question. His replies are all built around the same basic pattern:

1. I am really happy this question is being asked
2. Because we all know what happened in cycling's past
3. But fortunately, that past is now 20 years ago
4. So cycling is now in a completely different place
5. And so obviously, I'm not taking anything

It's an interesting response because it implies that asking about doping is only natural, and that actually it's a good thing to do. This is exactly the opposite of what Wout Van Aert said last year after one of the team's dominant performances when he called the doping question 'such a *** question' - an unfair question, a nonsense question.

It's also a response that quite elegantly and effectively frames doping in cycling as something that happened '20 years ago' (Vingegaard's words), in a long gone, distant past that you would have to be a little disillusioned and cynical to keep on bringing up. I've seen physiologists in Danish media just recently repeat the same thing: getting a fresh bag of blood is something they used to do 'in the old days'.

The reality, obviously, is different:

Richard Freeman was the leading doctor at Sky from 2009-2017 and lost his medical license two years ago as he was found to have ordered testosterone for an un-named Sky rider back in 2011 (he was also found guilty of poor medical record keeping - so much for the attention to detail professed by Brailsford's philosophy of marginal gains - and admitted to having destroyed the laptop containing the riders data with a screw driver). Just half a year ago, Freeman lost the appeal in the High Court.

Two years ago, former Gerolsteiner and Milram team doctor Mark Schmidt was sentenced to 4 years and 10 months in prison for having performed blood transfusions on athletes, including cyclists. There's even a recording on YouTube of the Austrian cross-country skier being caught in the middle of a transfusion.

In most Danish media coverage, unfortunately, this rather recent doping past is hardly ever mentioned; it's as if it barely exists. It may be that many journalists are simply not aware of these cases as they were clearly lower profile than e.g. the USADA investigation on Armstrong and the Festina scandal. But you'd expect some level of research ...

 

[NFTtiddies]

Ah the Jumbo food app reasoning again...
Wondering where are my 8% gains, been seeing 8% detraining instead ever since I started using the app and not cycling to the store...

This is the article Jumbo Foodcoach app

 

[lenric]

THEY'RE BACK

 

[proffate]

Same narrative again, you got nothing on them besides "they ride too fast".

Even when Sky dominated there atleast were some serious dubious TUE"s .

Are you new here or do you just have a bad memory? It's a tale as old as time.

First, they take the piss out of the viewers. Old timers roll their eyes and sigh, "here we go again".

Second, new fans ride to their defense, screeching, "you have no prooooof", "they passed 5,000 tests last week"

Years later, concrete evidence emerges. Record books may or may not be rewritten. Journos and the new hot 24 year old star both agree that that was years ago

Occasionally the system slips up and slaps someone's wrist while their career is still active (Spanish steak incident). Unless of course they come from the old soviet block, then to hell with them.

 

[Andre]

...so I read a few of the posts here. My question is will the detection mechanisms catch up with the doping anytime soon? Or has the science of doping and camouflage too far advanced now?

 

[Savant12]

My only question would be where was the diet last year or did they just do more research into Vinge with his DNA to find out the best nutrition l after the fact?

Vingo doesn’t need nutrition. He self-regenerates to full capacity once he exceeds 7w/kg for a minute.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Vingo doesn’t need nutrition. He self-regenerates to full capacity once he exceeds 7w/kg for a minute.

The Skeletor channels the dark energy of the universe. And as we all know: you can't detect dark energy. Also they probably use dark matter paint on the wheels that bends gravity slightly when you are cornering,

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I have seen Vingegaard a couple of times now in Danish media responding to the doping question. His replies are all built around the same basic pattern:

1. I am really happy this question is being asked
2. Because we all know what happened in cycling's past
3. But fortunately, that past is now 20 years ago
4. So cycling is now in a completely different place
5. And so obviously, I'm not taking anything

Remember the supposed post-EPO era when US Postal dominated? Remember, the "new clean era of cycling" that followed and ushered in Froome and the Skybots? The story always remains the same, with a few tweaks: 1) "cheating was in the past", 2) "things are different now", 3) "Our sport is clean and I'm an example of that."

There will always be gullible fans who believe this stuff only because it's a rider from their home country who's winning. The sport isn't any cleaner nor will it likely ever be.

 

[ElDesordenado]

Remember the supposed post-EPO era when US Postal dominated? Remember, the "new clean era of cycling" that followed and ushered in Froome and the Skybots? The story always remains the same, with a few tweaks: 1) "cheating was in the past", 2) "things are different now", 3) "Our sport is clean and I'm an example of that."

There will always be gullible fans who believe this stuff only because it's a rider from their home country who's winning. The sport isn't any cleaner nor will it likely ever be.

Exactly.

Seeing Vingegaard respond to these questions reminds me a lot of Froome back in the day, except there hasn't been any TUE/Geert Leinders situation at JumboVisma (yet)

 

[topt]

Oh wow, Le Figaro. The French think a foreigner winning the Tour is suspect! Call me flabbergasted.

hm, so you dont think he is suspect.... what are you doing here than

 

[topt]

Don't agree with theyoungest's general stance, but he is correct about a degree of double standards being floated around.

Jumbo does what they are supposed to do and it's somehow morally shocking. Pog directly mocks an opponent after a failure and it's either a pass or just adorable 🥰

this is total BS

 

[Riek s]

But he can't say anything else. We can't expect him to say I dope. There is also no other real explanation why they are pushing 15% more W/kg than the "cleanest" era and similar W/kg as known extreme dopers. (and i'm not talking about lance since he wouldn't follow either today on his stuff. we are talking about rominger/pantani/Ull pre 1999)

 

[topt]

Not sure what the fuzz about Pog is. His forum thread is almost double the size of Vingegaard. both are breaking past the 7W/kg deep in the tour for dozen minutes on multiple occasions.

wrong, only the fisherman is doing this kind of numbers, Pog was way below 7

 

[Salvarani]

Remember the supposed post-EPO era when US Postal dominated? Remember, the "new clean era of cycling" that followed and ushered in Froome and the Skybots? The story always remains the same, with a few tweaks: 1) "cheating was in the past", 2) "things are different now", 3) "Our sport is clean and I'm an example of that."

There will always be gullible fans who believe this stuff only because it's a rider from their home country who's winning. The sport isn't any cleaner nor will it likely ever be.

It is probably the toughest endurance sport. Riding a GT, 21 days, is probably the toughest thing you can do. I dont know what would be tougher. In many ways I could understand it.

Through the whole history of the sport, riders has always needed things to be able to actually just finish it. Imagine if you are now trying to win it? Impossible without being heavy into the dark arts.

 

[topt]

It's fine you doubt a performance and I understand the performance of Vingegaard is very sus. It's just that there is nothing besides the performance. NOTHING.
I don't accuse anyone purely on a performance. Records are broken in every sport every year and only in cycling we directly say "DOPING".

I'm aware that I give Jumbo the benefit of the doubt probably because I'm dutch, but that's also because I listen to pretty much every dutch cycling podcast/newsitem. Over the years I've heard so many riders (active/formerly active) that were at the team, left the team, joined the team later or maybe weren't even at the team and they all can't believe/imagine that doping is supported by the team.
Recently Michel Elijzen even said this week that he actually would put his hand in the fire for this team. He knows the teammanagement so well and just can't believe/imagine that they use it. Thijs Zonneveld said that to Michel he is taking a big risk and will never do this for anyone, but did add that he doesn't do it because you can never know what individuals do. He has nothing, absolutely nothing, he can accuse Jumbo from allthough he is shocked by Vingegaards performance. I don't doubt for 1 second that Thijs Zonneveld will smack the hammer down on the team if he finds something, because that's what he has always done. Even when he discovered stuff from a rider/team that happened 15 years ago he would reveal it. He says that with everything he asked at Jumbo they always opened the door for him. They never said "no" to him despite his sometimes quite demanding requests.

This is just a few examples and I know this won't change the slighest on your opinions here, but there is an endless stream of examples like this.

Also I agree with Plugge when he says what more can we do? There doors are open at all times. They had a journalist around for 3 years who was allowed to be at everything they did. He listened along to meetings that took up to 4 hours. They have camera crews running around from multiple organisations all the time.
When I watch these cycling docu's I always wonder how I'd feel as rider with all those cameras on me all the time... It's almost 24/7 a camera on your face.

Anyways I'm in the wrong thread. I don't know who I'm trying to convince. Maybe I'm just naive... whatever!

just wondering, how much faster than the rest would he have to be for you to start doubting ? 5min ,10 ?

 

[topt]

Jisma are hilarious, but can you blame them for making the most of it? UAE are a different version of fake and ridiculous, and ToddyPog's image is also carefully curated, but because he's a charismatic guy, it's ok?

hey, perhaps him being carismatic is also carfully curated.... stick to performance if you know dont know *** about riders