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Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

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That'll depend on whether they can afford putting Jonas on a similar Nuclear Bike. The cost is going to have both technical and political components, with the second likely significantly exceeding the first. But even the first one, by the looks of it, is far from negligible. As was once discussed in Teddy's own thread here, in principle, a couple of 18650 li-ion cells worth of energy would be sufficient to gain a decisive advantage. But, judging by the "nuclear ease" displayed by said Teddy throughout this season, there is a lot more inside his Colnago. Likely, it is some cutting edge lipo (as they have higher energy density than li-ion) packaged neatly and efficiently with some distributed brushless system. So it really is on the cutting edge of today's technology (as opposed to , for instance, Martian rovers that are well beyond the aforementioned edge) and therefore not cheap.
You need to be recharged. No motors going on. All medicine and doctors, fully charging these athletes.
 
Tour 2025. Skeletor, after climbing Mt Ventoux at 2000 m/h:
It's nice to put 5 minutes into Tadej but I was holding back as I wanted my teammates to finish within the time limit. Hopefully next time I'll show my full form: according to my doctors my absolute FTP is larger than Indurain's.
 
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Tour 2025. Skeletor, after climbing Mt Ventoux at 2000 m/h:
It's nice to put 5 minutes into Tadej but I was holding back as I wanted my teammates to finish within the time limit. Hopefully next time I'll be able to show my full form.
2aaOi.gif
 
You need to be recharged. No motors going on. All medicine and doctors, fully charging these athletes.
That is quite an apodictic statement. Makes one wonder if, for the author thereof, personal beliefs tend to take precedence over the totality of hard facts and their possible rational explanations, since none have even been attempted here. In case you've missed the developments of this season, let us quickly recall that the funny 'Pogi' character has displayed superhuman form from March to October (with a small break during the Olympics) while casually demolishing the famous EPO fueled Pantani's climbing records (and you should know who that was), going on easy for him 80-100 km solo forays capped with fresh arrivals, and not being even winded after 1hp uphill accelerations, all in his preferred "coal miner" barn door aerodynamics position.

Such a display, given all we know about sport performances, human body physical and current technological capabilities, in principle allow for two abstractly possible explanations. One, as you noted, has to do with doctors "fully charging" 'Pogi' (let us just stick to him) to seemingly beyond what can be expected from a purely biological source of propulsion, defying fatigue in any shapes and colors, from immediate to long term. And the other is based on augmenting said biological propulsion source with an electromagnetic one fueled by stored chemical energy. The former, taking into the account all we have seen, including repeatedly demonstrated lack of fatigue, necessarily involves elements of sci-fi one of which -- "genetic doping" -- has been explicitly mentioned here. The other one enjoys the advantage of being, first, fully technologically feasible at the currently achieved level, and, second, being consistent with fatigue-free record breaking season-long performance we have all witnessed. As someone who spent his whole adult life working in the field of science, I can say that, in this day and age, if faced with a choice between believing in scientific miracles and refusing to do so, any individual unwilling to stray from the rational gnoseological platform should lean to the latter possibility with 99% 100% certainty. But, if you are more of a miracle believer, that is your choice no one is going to dispute.

On top of the totality of direct physical evidence provided by this year's performances, there are at least a couple of additional indirect but rather compelling bits. One is the somewhat heated altercation between a person who looked like a not fully initiated UCI official and an UAE stuff member about Pogi's wonderbike that had been just used to demolish the WCRR field in a spectacular fashion made look easy by said Pogi. That episode was accidentally caught on camera and discussed earlier on these pages. The second is that Guardian article by Jonathan Liew in which the current flavor of pro cycling was directly likened to WWE. It is reasonable to assume that a leading sportswriter in a global publication has heard his share of rumors about what's going on there behind the scenes and shared as much as he could afford to do.
 
That is quite an apodictic statement. Makes one wonder if, for the author thereof, personal beliefs tend to take precedence over the totality of hard facts and their possible rational explanations, since none have even been attempted here. In case you've missed the developments of this season, let us quickly recall that the funny 'Pogi' character has displayed superhuman form from March to October (with a small break during the Olympics) while casually demolishing the famous EPO fueled Pantani's climbing records (and you should know who that was), going on easy for him 80-100 km solo forays capped with fresh arrivals, and not being even winded after 1hp uphill accelerations, all in his preferred "coal miner" barn door aerodynamics position.

Such a display, given all we know about sport performances, human body physical and current technological capabilities, in principle allow for two abstractly possible explanations. One, as you noted, has to do with doctors "fully charging" 'Pogi' (let us just stick to him) to seemingly beyond what can be expected from a purely biological source of propulsion, defying fatigue in any shapes and colors, from immediate to long term. And the other is based on augmenting said biological propulsion source with an electromagnetic one fueled by stored chemical energy. The former, taking into the account all we have seen, including repeatedly demonstrated lack of fatigue, necessarily involves elements of sci-fi one of which -- "genetic doping" -- has been explicitly mentioned here. The other one enjoys the advantage of being, first, fully technologically feasible at the currently achieved level, and, second, being consistent with fatigue-free record breaking season-long performance we have all witnessed. As someone who spent his whole adult life working in the field of science, I can say that, in this day and age, if faced with a choice between believing in scientific miracles and refusing to do so, any individual unwilling to stray from the rational gnoseological platform should lean to the latter possibility with 99% 100% certainty. But, if you are more of a miracle believer, that is your choice no one is going to dispute.

On top of the totality of direct physical evidence provided by this year's performances, there are at least a couple of additional indirect but rather compelling bits. One is the somewhat heated altercation between a person who looked like a not fully initiated UCI official and an UAE stuff member about Pogi's wonderbike that had been just used to demolish the WCRR field in a spectacular fashion made look easy by said Pogi. That episode was accidentally caught on camera and discussed earlier on these pages. The second is that Guardian article by Jonathan Liew in which the current flavor of pro cycling was directly likened to WWE. It is reasonable to assume that a leading sportswriter in a global publication has heard his share of rumors about what's going on there behind the scenes and shared as much as he could afford to do.
Wrong thread, it should be in Pogis thread.
 
Makes one wonder if, for the author thereof, personal beliefs tend to take precedence over the totality of hard facts and their possible rational explanations, since none have even been attempted here

Apodictic means clearly established or beyond dispute - so you agree there is no motor doping? But then you continue to push the motor doping theory with Pogacar?

I agree with @danielovichdk2 - there is no motor doping just perfection of medical techniques. We wait with baited breath on the response of Vingegaard and Visma in 2025.

The third possibility is UCI collusion which you don't spell out but allude to in your last paragraph. But the bolded sentence might also apply to those who keep pushing this motor doping meme on Pogacar. Long word salad posts can also be a form of obfuscation.

But yes, but other than the fact Jonas Vingegaard also demolished the Pantani PdB record by 2 minutes, this should be in the Pogacar thread or else the motor doping thread.
 
Apodictic means clearly established or beyond dispute - so you agree there is no motor doping? But then you continue to push the motor doping theory with Pogacar?

I agree with @danielovichdk2 - there is no motor doping just perfection of medical techniques. We wait with baited breath on the response of Vingegaard and Visma in 2025.

The third possibility is UCI collusion which you don't spell out but allude to in your last paragraph. But the bolded sentence might also apply to those who keep pushing this motor doping meme on Pogacar. Long word salad posts can also be a form of obfuscation.

But yes, but other than the fact Jonas Vingegaard also demolished the Pantani PdB record by 2 minutes, this should be in the Pogacar thread or else the motor doping thread.
He will be a lot better next year, because he will be able to sniff way more carbon monoxide before the Tour. The injuries he had, didn't let him explore that as much as pogacar did.

I am not joking. I really believe this is the new thing who is helping the riders being more faster. Those guys from israel are probably using it.
 
He will be a lot better next year, because he will be able to sniff way more carbon monoxide before the Tour. The injuries he had, didn't let him explore that as much as pogacar did.

I am not joking. I really believe this is the new thing who is helping the riders being more faster. Those guys from israel are probably using it.

Guys are riding paniagua. Vingo eats only his beloved fish and Teddy likes porridge. They don't want to risk their health. Now it's about who can fit a larger electric motor inside a bike! A new, motorsport era has begun.
 

According to some articles, carbon monoxide can improve 5% vo2 max, wish can mean more 30 W.
Its in French and behind a paywall. When did CO sniffing start being used - 2020?
The injuries he had, didn't let him explore that as much as pogacar did.

Yet Visma themselves were still saying Vingegaard wouldn't start the Tour if they didn't think he could defeat Pogacar. Even during the PdB climb they were confident they had Pogacar's measure. Below quote is from the team car radio....

....but of course, still a hard fight to drop Pogacar, we need a big pull from Mateo for the first 20 minutes and then Jonas you just have to hold your threshold and we believe he will get into problems ....

So much for that plan. It was still an incredible performance from Vingegaard knowing what he had recovered from.

So maybe Vingegaard explored other "techniques" Pogi didn't? After all, even Vingegaard demolished Pantani's 1998 EPO record by over 2 minutes.

Seemed clear that Visma simply underestimated Pog. Certainly the theory we have been hearing since 2022 that Pog wasn't so good on hot, long and tough stages was debunked on that climb.
 

According to some articles, carbon monoxide can improve 5% vo2 max, wish can mean more 30 W.
30 w alone is crazy.. do you believe they „only” sniff this sh** or they are add EPO and etc to that ?
 
Is the source from the peloton or from science?
On Tuesday, the German magazine Tour revealed that the benefits of this method on respiratory capacity (VO2 max) would be much greater than expected, in the order of 5%. Which "allows a water carrier to transform into a winner", concludes the specialist magazine, citing a 2020 American study and recent comments from researchers at the University of Bayreuth.
 
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The study is not really convincing as it was not studied on elite athletes - https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/...c_exposure_to_low_dose_carbon_monoxide.4.aspx

Non elite athletes always get a bigger boost than elite athletes at altitude, so I guess it's the same with CO.

By the way, there may have been some very unfit guys in the placebo group & study leader sells lower-cost CO rebreathers (conflict interest?) - https://bloodtec.de/product-method/ What Pog is alleged to have used, Vingegaard and Israel use a more expensive Danish device.

Original-00005768-202009000-00004-T1.jpg
 

The process already begun.


"Jonas is training really well on the bike, but focussing on his strength and conditioning also,” he said. “This means he can start to normalize again after he lost some muscle mass last year."
He might have a prayer if they train him to be stronger at a higher body mass. At the very least condition him to the level of greater strength and then let him train and race his weight to GT levels.
 
The one way I find CO a wholly unsatisfying explanation is it should simply trigger the bio passport.

But I guess we have to believe it's just CO + expensive lawyers now
The trendy heat adaptation training upping your blood plasma volume will help in that regard + the passport has been killed in court.
The horse racing doping stuff is also plausible to me, would explain why UAE are one of the teams who have figured it out perfectly...
 
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He might have a prayer if they train him to be stronger at a higher body mass. At the very least condition him to the level of greater strength and then let him train and race his weight to GT levels.
He just needs to have a normal preparation for the Tour, be healthy, have access to the best clinical things of the moment and then, there is no reason for him to not be again the best GT rider in the world.

Unless you think Pogacar didn’t improved more from 2023 to 2024 comparing between 2020 and 2023 just because he was not training properly, and UAE didn’t had the money to put him in the best clinical programm.

Vingegaard can improve as much as Pogacar in normal conditions, because this wasn't about talent what happened since last year.

This is all ridiculous clinical things since last year.
 
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The study is not really convincing as it was not studied on elite athletes - https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/...c_exposure_to_low_dose_carbon_monoxide.4.aspx

Non elite athletes always get a bigger boost than elite athletes at altitude, so I guess it's the same with CO.

By the way, there may have been some very unfit guys in the placebo group & study leader sells lower-cost CO rebreathers (conflict interest?) - https://bloodtec.de/product-method/ What Pog is alleged to have used, Vingegaard and Israel use a more expensive Danish device.

Original-00005768-202009000-00004-T1.jpg
The study just goes to show how poor scientists MDs are. No idea about statistical analysis...
 
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He just needs to have a normal preparation for the Tour, be healthy, have access to the best clinical things of the moment and then, there is no reason for him to not be again the best GT rider in the world.

Unless you think Pogacar didn’t improved more from 2023 to 2024 comparing between 2020 and 2023 just because he was not training properly, and UAE didn’t had the money to put him in the best clinical programm.

Vingegaard can improve as much as Pogacar in normal conditions, because this wasn't about talent what happened since last year.

This is all ridiculous clinical things since last year.
So no one got injured last year? OK, it's all about what you think allowed Pogacar cakewalk.
 
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