Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[meat puppet]

This had better not be a veiled shot at salmiakki.

Of course not! I guess mämmi was on my mind, but even that very much pales in comparison to surströmming. But to each their own.

 

[ppanther92]

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vingegaard-jumbo-visma-are-totally-clean-you-have-to-trust-us/

Didn't the U.S. Postal Service Team, spin the same charade? And Team Sky with their marginal gains propaganda?

Yes, everyone since at least 20-30 years (outstanding professionalism often was mentioned for Indurain, then Armstrong was just riding his bike "longer" than everyone else) takes it to the “next level”. And if you then ask, its stupid *** like altitude camps (everyone does them), wind tunnels (Indurain, Armstrong, Contador - its all on Google), material (well, bikes are not even lighter than in the 90s), or training (Conconi figured out how heart rate works in 84). And then there is obviously even more stupid *** like pillows, sleep, whatever. And even if training, nutrition, or material improved marginally - there is still the comparison to other modern teams. Why is Ineos suddenly chanceless when they were a “marginal gain” superpower before?

 

[Pantani_lives]

You catch your kid with a smear of chocolate on his face. He says, "I didn't eat candy. You have to trust me."

 

[Ripper]

I am shocked

Of course you are! So you think pogo and UAE are victims?

 

[SafeBet]

Claiming Vingegaard was a nobody before 2021 is misinformation.
He had a number of impressive performances since very young age. His 9th place in the MTT to Balea Lac at 19, for example, was an indicator of climbing talent. And the competition wasn't as bad as one might think: a few sputniks, Rebellin, Pellizotti and Bernal (who's only a month younger than him). Crashes slowed down his development but he still had a few relevant results among the u23 ranks, he was very consistent in 2018 up until he crashed out of Val d'Aosta.

After turning pro with Jumbo, he showed potential in a few races here and there. His stage win in Pologne came against tough opposition and he was good throughout summer after that race.
The problem is he rarely showed consistency and surely not the kind of day to day climbing level required to contend for a GT. The day after his stage win in Pologne, while in the yellow jersey, he lost almost 15 minutes (and not for lack of team support).
Even in the 2020 Vuelta, a race which according to someone proved his ability on long climbs, he had a few very promising performances (Angliru above all) but he completely disappeared in other mountain stages: he lost 17 minutes in the Formigal stage where Roglic was left with no support and lost the jersey and more than 20 minutes in the Covatilla stage where Roglic was again in danger.

Up to the 2021 UAE Tour, where he won the Jabel Jais stage but still didn't feature in GC, I viewed him as a potential super domestique and elite stage hunter. Best case scenario to me was winning GT mountain stages from the break and possibly some one week stage races. But something was clearly changing. Coppi e Bartali was an indicator although against lesser opposition, Itzulia a confirmation: he was climbing with the top talents in the sport on a day to day basis. @Netserk has a point when he says there wasn't a gigantic leap from Itzulia 2021 to Tour 2021, but prior to that the leap was indeed gigantic. And he keeps improving: he's now climbing a lot better than the top talents in the sport, while having the best recovery and possibly winning TTs at the Tour de France.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Even in the 2020 Vuelta, a race which according to someone proved his ability on long climbs, he had a few very promising performances (Angliru above all) but he completely disappeared in other mountain stages: he lost 17 minutes in the Formigal stage where Roglic was left with no support and lost the jersey and more than 20 minutes in the Covatilla stage where Roglic was again in danger.

The danger Rogla was in at La Covatilla is overstated. He had some very good team support in keeping the red jersey, it just wasn't from his own team.

 

[noob]

In the last couple of years, there have been serious advancements made in mRNA modifications along with mitochondrial targeting methods. Mitochondrial targeting has been mainly used for cancer treatment, but I'm sure there's benefits to be had for everyone.

This noob wants to read more about this. Suggestions on where to start? (Google only sent me to a Nature article from 2008 about "gene doping".)

 

[BR2]

Yes, everyone since at least 20-30 years (outstanding professionalism often was mentioned for Indurain, then Armstrong was just riding his bike "longer" than everyone else) takes it to the “next level”. And if you then ask, its stupid * like altitude camps (everyone does them), wind tunnels (Indurain, Armstrong, Contador - its all on Google), material (well, bikes are not even lighter than in the 90s), or training (Conconi figured out how heart rate works in 84). And then there is obviously even more stupid * like pillows, sleep, whatever. And even if training, nutrition, or material improved marginally - there is still the comparison to other modern teams. Why is Ineos suddenly chanceless when they were a “marginal gain” superpower before?

There are new superpillows on the market, but you really have to have the connections...

 

[ppanther92]

There are new superpillows on the market, but you really have to have the connections...

Those damn superpillow elites...

 

[nayr497]

Thank goodness it’s not only me. I wrote the same thing in the state of the peloton thread. I cannot believe all the clowns who rated the Tour 8/10 or above - I suggest they follow WWF wrestling which is equally believable.

There is not a snowflakes chance in hell that Vingegaard is a better talent than Pogacar. Stage 11 was Pogacar’s fault. But stage 20 is inexplicable outside this forum. That Vingo was even close to WvA on that course is a complete joke. Jumbo are taking the %#ss.

And yet people are cheering because they considered that to be entertaining? They are part of the problem. Bjarne Riis was equally believable.

I don't know if people are just too overwhelmed with everything else going on in the world, but the masses seem blind to the obvious doping going on here. And tennis too. This isn't normal!

 

[nayr497]

Amazing podium. Hard to believe Geraint has no shame. What a ***, old draft horse keeping up with 120 pound 23 year olds. What a ***.

 

[firefly3323]

There are new superpillows on the market, but you really have to have the connections...

 

[NFTtiddies]

This noob wants to read more about this. Suggestions on where to start? (Google only sent me to a Nature article from 2008 about "gene doping".)

Replace "doping" with "therapy"

Here's a research from 2012 testing mRNA injections with EPO encodings on mice.

Increased erythropoiesis in mice injected with submicrogram quantities of pseudouridine-containing mRNA encoding erythropoietin - PubMed

Advances in the optimization of in vitro-transcribed mRNA are bringing mRNA-mediated therapy closer to reality. In cultured cells, we recently achieved high levels of translation with high-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC)-purified, in vitro-transcribed mRNAs containing the modified...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Weekly injection of 100 ng of EPO mRNA was sufficient to increase the hematocrit from 43 to 57%,..."

As for mitochondrial targeting, think about insulin resistance, vascular function, the kidney, ATP itself. I mean the sky can be the limit here.
You can also search for "mitochondrial transplantation/transfer"

 

[Riek s]

Claiming Vingegaard was a nobody before 2021 is misinformation.
He had a number of impressive performances since very young age. His 9th place in the MTT to Balea Lac at 19, for example, was an indicator of climbing talent. And the competition wasn't as bad as one might think: a few sputniks, Rebellin, Pellizotti and Bernal (who's only a month younger than him). Crashes slowed down his development but he still had a few relevant results among the u23 ranks, he was very consistent in 2018 up until he crashed out of Val d'Aosta.

After turning pro with Jumbo, he showed potential in a few races here and there. His stage win in Pologne came against tough opposition and he was good throughout summer after that race.
The problem is he rarely showed consistency and surely not the kind of day to day climbing level required to contend for a GT. The day after his stage win in Pologne, while in the yellow jersey, he lost almost 15 minutes (and not for lack of team support).
Even in the 2020 Vuelta, a race which according to someone proved his ability on long climbs, he had a few very promising performances (Angliru above all) but he completely disappeared in other mountain stages: he lost 17 minutes in the Formigal stage where Roglic was left with no support and lost the jersey and more than 20 minutes in the Covatilla stage where Roglic was again in danger.

Up to the 2021 UAE Tour, where he won the Jabel Jais stage but still didn't feature in GC, I viewed him as a potential super domestique and elite stage hunter. Best case scenario to me was winning GT mountain stages from the break and possibly some one week stage races. But something was clearly changing. Coppi e Bartali was an indicator although against lesser opposition, Itzulia a confirmation: he was climbing with the top talents in the sport on a day to day basis. @Netserk has a point when he says there wasn't a gigantic leap from Itzulia 2021 to Tour 2021, but prior to that the leap was indeed gigantic. And he keeps improving: he's now climbing a lot better than the top talents in the sport, while having the best recovery and possibly winning TTs at the Tour de France.

Tried to look up his results these are basically his top 10 places:

in 2021 (24): 8th in Donostia San Sebastion Klasikoa
2nd TDF (2x2nd, 2x3rd inc ITT, 2x7th and 1x8th)
2nd in Dauphine (3rd in ITT, 4th, 6th, 8th)
2nd Itzulia (3rd, 4th, 6th, 8th)
1st in Settimana Internazionale Coppi e Bartali (2x1st, 2nd and 6th)
1 ettappe in UAE tour (46 GC, 15th in the younger classement) (Shift happens here, he lost 9minutes to Pog on stage 3, but his TT on stage 2 was about the same as Pog).

in 2020 (23): 9th in the 5th etappe tour of poland, >3minutes behind Remco Evenepoel.

in 2019 (22): 1st in Hammer Stavanger (2.1) (3 ettappes)
2nd in PostNord Danmark Rundt (2nd in GC, and 2nd in etappe sprint of 4)
1st place in ettappe in poland (Sprint of 3)

2018: 1st in prologue Giro Ciclistico della Valle ... Mont Blanc
1st in TTT in Tour de l'Avenir
15th national chanmpionship ITT U23 !!!

2017: 1st GC Tour du Loir et Cher (2.2), (3rd)
2nd GP Viborg
5th Sundvolden GP
7th Ringirike GP



To me this is just like Froome before his 'breakthrough'. A supertalent as he supposably was, as we are told, would have won a lot more while driving backwards.

His Top 10 places before 2021 could be counted on one hand. (and those were small races. Heck if evenpoel showed those results he wouldn't be talked about at all

 

[hhaus2002]

What is his VO2max?

 

[Riek s]

What is his VO2max?

Don't think it is known, but those numbers don't mean much tbh..

Remco would be 85 @ 61kg
Padun, (who performed next to nothing) would be >90 @ 66/67kg according to Jonathan Vaughters

Don't know if they will publicly share those numbers and if those are shared whether they are correct/sandbagged influenced by doping.

edit: some other numbers i found:

Kurt-Asle Arvesen should have 93
Lemond 92
Inudrain 88
Boasson Hagen 86
Hushovd 86

Just to say some of these never accomplished much in tour work and other blasted their way into history.

 

[Rollthedice]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1551521554311401472

View: https://twitter.com/faustocoppi60/status/1551521554311401472?t=ZY_ppl_qOSENIBTifm3RpQ&s=19

What we can learn from this is that he was promising, out of the ordinary and that he is 58 kg.

 

[nayr497]

Ganna looks like a pro wrestler compared to Jonas V!

 

[Riek s]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1551521554311401472

View: https://twitter.com/faustocoppi60/status/1551521554311401472?t=ZY_ppl_qOSENIBTifm3RpQ&s=19

What we can learn from this is that he was promising, out of the ordinary and that he is 58 kg.

note that they compared him to the Average Danish rider. (I suppose they also implied pro rider).

If you are out of the ordinary one would have a lot more Top 10 places since 2018. (I can imagine winning is harder, but even top10 is rare for him untill 2021 when he won or podiummed multiple times)

 

[SHAD0W93]

Tried to look up his results these are basically his top 10 places:

in 2021 (24): 8th in Donostia San Sebastion Klasikoa
2nd TDF (2x2nd, 2x3rd inc ITT, 2x7th and 1x8th)
2nd in Dauphine (3rd in ITT, 4th, 6th, 8th)
2nd Itzulia (3rd, 4th, 6th, 8th)
1st in Settimana Internazionale Coppi e Bartali (2x1st, 2nd and 6th)
1 ettappe in UAE tour (46 GC, 15th in the younger classement) (Shift happens here, he lost 9minutes to Pog on stage 3, but his TT on stage 2 was about the same as Pog).

in 2020 (23): 9th in the 5th etappe tour of poland, >3minutes behind Remco Evenepoel.

in 2019 (22): 1st in Hammer Stavanger (2.1) (3 ettappes)
2nd in PostNord Danmark Rundt (2nd in GC, and 2nd in etappe sprint of 4)
1st place in ettappe in poland (Sprint of 3)

2018: 1st in prologue Giro Ciclistico della Valle ... Mont Blanc
1st in TTT in Tour de l'Avenir
15th national chanmpionship ITT U23 !!!

2017: 1st GC Tour du Loir et Cher (2.2), (3rd)
2nd GP Viborg
5th Sundvolden GP
7th Ringirike GP



To me this is just like Froome before his 'breakthrough'. A supertalent as he supposably was, as we are told, would have won a lot more while driving backwards.

His Top 10 places before 2021 could be counted on one hand. (and those were small races. Heck if evenpoel showed those results he wouldn't be talked about at all

He actually won before his breakthrough though.

 

[Riek s]

He actually won before his breakthrough though.

Froome won 2 etappes in 2007 (Japan and Giro del regioni) (22 year)
9 top 10 in 2008
1 win in 2009 and 7 Top 10 places

just saying ..

 

[Pillhead96]

3mins 26secs in this video. Blood stain clearly visible at left elbow on starting ramp. Don't think it can be from wiping a nosebleed (which might have been even more suspicious) given the positioning of the stain.

View: https://youtu.be/lLEhg8nidQU

Definately a red flag. I can’t find any mention of it anywhere. Good tour though.

 

[proffate]

The rate of recovery is what really stands out to me about JV's performances. Wout and Vingegaard never looked tired or had a jour sans. We've seen Tony Martin ride off the front all day by himself but he never did it 10 times in a single TDF.

Chapeau to the doctor who figured out how to recover like this (be it ketones, gene therapy, or novel drugs). It would be very boring if it turns out to just be more protectionism on the part of the UCI.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Froome won 2 etappes in 2007 (Japan and Giro del regioni) (22 year)
9 top 10 in 2008
1 win in 2009 and 7 Top 10 places

just saying ..

That’s great, they weren’t pro wins or even against decent competition. One rider won at world tour level, the other didn’t and struggled in everything but TT with good results when the competition was decent. Just saying

 

[topt]

Of course you are! So you think pogo and UAE are victims?

well if you consider Pog is doped than the fisherman must be on something even stronger which makes them the victims