Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[clooover]

Vingegaard was doing quite well with the doping questions, giving open answers that were really closed, saying the right things but not offering a path forward. And then he got asked about grey area / off label doping:


He's never heard abut it before? Never? He slept through the whole Wiggins thing? He's never heard the concerns about the misuse of Thyroid meds? He's never noticed the debate around the use of Ketones?

Jonas does not take ketones. His nutritionist confirmed that not long ago.

 

[ontheroad]

im just asking an honest question about what people think. i dont think either of them are clean. i think Pogacar is not at his normal level due to his far from perfect preparation after the wrist injury and today and probably yesterday showed that. i dont think Vingegaard would have looked so ridiculous yesterday if Pogacar was in 10/10 condition.

You realise he beat the entirety of the rest of the field by over 8%! The difference was a chasm, it's already been heralded as the greatest TT performance in history by a former TT world champion.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Alberto Bettiol from EF Education said this earlier today: "I was surprised by the time gaps yesterday, but our people made some predictions based on what numbers we think everyone can do, and our guess for Jonas was only 3 seconds off. I think Tadej was way off yesterday."

So clearly the other teams, and the other riders, do not find Vingegaard's time suspicious.

Or they “know” that he must be on something that can make him fly the last climb at 7,6w/kg

 

[fmk_RoI]

Jonas does not take ketones. His nutritionist confirmed that not long ago.

So not using means he's never noticed the debate, his informed decision to not use is based on ... what?

Here it's not a question of what he's using or not using, it's a question of what he's aware of, what planet he's been living of if he's not aware of this debate.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Alberto Bettiol from EF Education said this earlier today: "I was surprised by the time gaps yesterday, but our people made some predictions based on what numbers we think everyone can do, and our guess for Jonas was only 3 seconds off. I think Tadej was way off yesterday."

So clearly the other teams, and the other riders, do not find Vingegaard's time suspicious.

I really don't think you understand what's being said. Being able to predict his performance is not a badge of his cleanliness, does not wipe away the doubts, the doubts were priced into the calculation.

 

[Red Rick]

I have to say I find it quite amusing that the Lanterne Rouge guys, who usually do everything they can to boost Vingegaard’s numbers, have suddenly stopped doing that.

There’s no mention of his performance on the actual steep part of the climb - and based on how he paced that I’m pretty sure their formula will have spat out 8+ w/kg. They definitely over-estimate in general, but still.

And then today there’s suddenly no mention of the altitude-adjustment crap that they usually do with high-altitude climbs. Probably because if you add about 0.5w/kg like they usually do it puts him up there with Riis, Pantani, and company. Not that I buy into the altitude adjustment stuff they do, but the fact it suddenly went missing is funny.

What? This is the single most boosted number they've ever shat out. Conventional calculation would give 6.8. In addition, it's a 27km/h average climb on a TT bike, they likely way overestimated CdA here.

 

[danielovichdk2]

I really don't think you understand what's being said. Being able to predict his performance is not a badge of his cleanliness, does not wipe away the doubts, the doubts were priced into the calculation.

I totally understand what is being said. Other riders in the tour don't believe there is cheating involved. Pretty simple really.

 

[hender-retour]

Vingegaard was doing quite well with the doping questions, giving open answers that were really closed, saying the right things but not offering a path forward. And then he got asked about grey area / off label doping:


He's never heard abut it before? Never? He slept through the whole Wiggins thing? He's never heard the concerns about the misuse of Thyroid meds? He's never noticed the debate around the use of Ketones?

I regard Vingegaard as a doper. That doesn't mean I can hope for him to reveal it when asked. What is he supposed to do here, go into details about a substance like he is some expert. He chose the best option imo.

 

[Salvarani]

I totally understand what is being said. Other riders in the tour don't believe there is cheating involved. Pretty simple really.

Nobody is speaking out, right now. Everyone is on damage control. It is not just about Vinge or Pog or any team. It is about the sport.

Thats why everybody has been on edge since yesterday. They are all scared that another major scandal is on the horizon. You dont think like riders contracts and so on has gotten increased during the last decade? Not just because of inflation but more money coming into the sport by big sponsors. The riders are probably making a lot more money than they used to. It is probably why everyone is protective and on defense, right now. It is everybodys best interest, who is on it, that it is business as usual.

 

[hender-retour]

Alberto Bettiol from EF Education said this earlier today: "I was surprised by the time gaps yesterday, but our people made some predictions based on what numbers we think everyone can do, and our guess for Jonas was only 3 seconds off. I think Tadej was way off yesterday."

So clearly the other teams, and the other riders, do not find Vingegaard's time suspicious.

Not really. They were just expecting Pogi to do better.
Vaughters is a sucker for numbers, I am sure Bettiol is on the mark here. That said they may have done as FMK pointed out. Incorporated the mutant factor Vingo has shown earlier.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

What? This is the single most boosted number they've ever shat out. Conventional calculation would give 6.8. In addition, it's a 27km/h average climb on a TT bike, they likely way overestimated CdA here.

According to official profile data and split times Vinge did a VAM of over 2200 m/h on the steep section between T2 and T3 (this is way above 7 w/kg for a 9% climb) and VAM of 1500 m/h on the shallow final section (this is more difficult to assess). In total his avg. VAM was 1865 m/h for a section of 6.6% avg grade, which would be about 7 w/kg for a regular climb. Combined with his quoted power on the flat section (6.33 w/kg) this would give about 6.8 w/kg for the last 20 minutes.

 

[ManicJack]

This guy is threatening Froome for most ridiculous mutant ever.

You forgot about a certain Belgian kid that is selling pizza in between riding away from everyone whenever he races.

 

[meat puppet]

does today put yesterday in perspective at all? Pogacar is clearly not himself. if he beat Pogacar by 25 seconds yesterday does this look anywhere near as bad? you could...argue...that the course suited the two of them better than anyone else (both great climbers and TT'ers, everyone else behind them is either only one or the other). i dunno, it doesn't feel as heavy to me as it did yesterday after what happened today.

My take is that if Pog is ill or just fatigued it helps to put their relative performance differentials into perspective. On the road race forums some posters were however of the opinion his base just collapsed (I share this view). Perhaps it's both, who knows.

But even so, the elephant in the room is also the absolute wattages and climbing times, which are more ridiculous than usually. Let's say Lanterne Rouge's 13,5min @ 7,6w/kg for yesterday's climb is off and the real figure is "only" around 7w/kg. That's still something else - coming after almost 20min of full gas TT effort to boot.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I totally understand what is being said. Other riders in the tour don't believe there is cheating involved. Pretty simple really.

I'm sorry, but anyone making this argument is beyond naive. If you think riders would speak out publicly about doping going on, you're not only unfamiliar with omerta, you just don't follow cycling period.

 

[Mayomaniac]

You forgot about a certain Belgian kid that is selling pizza in between riding away from everyone whenever he races.

Now have to think about Sayar who was a Pizza delivery guy during his ban.

 

[ThisFrenchGuy]

I totally understand what is being said. Other riders in the tour don't believe there is cheating involved. Pretty simple really.

Given past experiences and what we know of peloton culture, I don't think that's all that convincing.

Others said it, I don't think it's unfounded to believe another Festina redux could be a death knell for the sport.

Would never expect an insider group to tell on themselves, really.

 

[SHAD0W93]

A thought I had to that could be difficult depending on the location is if Vinge was also receiving IV hydration therapy to help him recover. A lot of other athletes use it to not feel as tired and dehydrated after and in order to keep pushing their best the next day. Obviously the only location would be a leg vein as he’s had his shirt off, unless it’s only done on days he keeps his kit on after the stage.

 

[Red Rick]

Now have to think about Sayar who was a Pizza delivery guy during his ban.

When we get Ricco back we ignore the 58 year suspension but we just go with "Did you know this guy used to sell ice cream?"

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

Because there's a few factors he cannot replicate

1. Fatigue. Everyone's tired and Vingegaard the least so. If today is a one day ITT he doesn't put 1'38 into Pogacar
2. His own form. One day ITTs off the back of a GT are hard. In Tokyo everyone who came out of the Tour underperformed
3. Parcours. The profile is the biggest reason gaps got so big. He's not suddenly a better flat ITTer than Evenepoel. Vingegaard did a worse T1-T2 split than Cavagna.

UCI has different drug testing protocols than ASO

 

[Tricycle Rider]

A thought I had to that could be difficult depending on the location is if Vinge was also receiving IV hydration therapy to help him recover. A lot of other athletes use it to not feel as tired and dehydrated after and in order to keep pushing their best the next day. Obviously the only location would be a leg vein as he’s had his shirt off, unless it’s only done on days he keeps his kit on after the stage.

If we had any here I'm sure the IV drug users would know which vein to hit first successfully without being noticeable...

 

[SHAD0W93]

If we had any here I'm sure the IV drug users would know which vein to hit successfully without being noticeable...

Hard to say since you can still see the bruises from the incision, or at least in the patients I see. Vingegaard is obviously in way better health and condition than them and potentially they could ice it right away and after while taking a NSAID to hide the inflammation and bruising.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Sayer is still riding apparently, had to look him up, only 34 as well get that boy on a bigger team and into the tour next year!

 

[Tricycle Rider]

Hard to say since you can still see the bruises from the incision, or at least in the patients I see. Vingegaard is obviously in way better health and condition than them and potentially they could ice it right away and after while taking a NSAID to hide the inflammation and bruising.

Are you saying your patients don't use butterfly needles?

 

[SHAD0W93]

Are you saying your patients don't use butterfly needles?

Who knows what needles they use, but the phlebotomists do use them and young or old there are those that get the bruises. But again, I’d doubt they’re a tenth as health as Vinge.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

I'm sorry, but anyone making this argument is beyond naive. If you think riders would speak out publicly about doping going on, you're not only unfamiliar with omerta, you just don't follow cycling period.

Come on don't be so harsh. For anyone who's witnessed the dark ages, it's totally clear what omerta is, how doping culture works round about and so on. But honestly if you came to the sport after the fallout I guess it's possible to be not so aware. Wouldn't say someone doesn't follow cycling at all, but maybe has missed out on the dark bits in detail.

Of course that does not have to be the case here, but I think it's something to maybe keep in mind.