Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

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Aug 2, 2016
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The sport is quite definitely NOT doing much better keeping the sport clean. Two major GC riders got their hands slapped last year, one testing positive and the other being detained by police for potentially being involved in trafficking doping products. Try including the pre-'98 data to see how important that big bust of the Festina affair was in that graph, and look at the only time there was a spike in increasing the number of riders caught is between 2009 and 2010, when riders caught in the 2007-8 period when cycling was cleaning up its act and following Operación Puerto would be returning from suspension (so the likes of Basso for example).

In 2006 through 2008 we made huge positive strides in anti-doping. The pièce de resistance was AFLD unveiling that they had a test for CERA in the middle of the 2008 Tour, which they had kept under wraps specifically to make sure they outed the dopers, because we were coming off a super-peaking era where riders would do little racing outside of targeted races, and so out of competition testing was harder to succeed with. That was all undone in 2009 with the UCI wresting control of testing back from AFLD and Pierre Bordry getting fired from his job. ASO got scared by the loss of the US audience following Armstrong's retirement and the demise of Landis, and then the German audience being lost after the TV channels refused to carry the race following successive scandals. The return of Armstrong was accepted at any price necessary, and a lot of the old veteran dopers who had been slowly filtering towards retirement suddenly had Indian summers. We also had a number of riders who were caught in that period (and into 2009) who talked, and resulted in other riders being busted or doping docs and distributors brought to heel. Patrik Sinkewitz, Emanuele Sella, Bernhard Kohl and Thomas Frei all were open about what they had done, and a few years down the line Floyd Landis and Michael Rasmussen would join them.

But we're now completely in the dark. The only time a big gun gets caught is when the police get involved like in Operation Aderlass or with Supermán or the W52 fiasco, or when the UCI kicks an own goal, and their lawyers have curled up in the corner and hid when faced with big money. Huge holes have been poked in the efficacy of the biopassport by cases such as Roman Kreuziger's, and the way minuscule probabilities have been able to be used to explain away positives and riders have been able to evade bans, such as in the cases of Daryl Impey and, yes, Chris Froome (whose medical history to explain the test via a combination of dehydration and illnesses sits in stark contrast to the actual performance on the day of the positive test), and nowadays it feels very much like the riders are only being pinged for minor things because it's all they can catch. Or maybe it's all they want to catch. After all, look at that graph: the sport is getting cleaner, or at least that's the perception, because there are no longer as many known dopers riding around. It doesn't matter that the speeds are up to what they were at the peak of the 90s EPO era, it doesn't matter that we're seeing riders achieving the kind of feats that fans baulked at even at the height of the Armstrong era (Wout van Aert's mountain performances, Pogačar's northern Classics, Geraint Thomas' rebirth as a GC rider in his 30s and winning the Tour de France). It doesn't matter that we now have people like Thomas and Vingegaard returning to the calendars of the super-peakers, entering few races and then emerging at the season's target at peak level in a manner that the biological passport was designed to prevent. It doesn't matter that these guys are putting out the exact same performance levels and behaviours that have had fans ironically enjoying the Volta a Portugal for years - the casual fan doesn't compare the climbing times to those of Pantani, Zülle, Rominger and their ilk.

Because riders aren't getting caught and nobody is talking, we don't know what's going on in the way we did 10-15 years ago. The Clinic may be overly paranoid and explain away everything via doping using some frivolous and at times ridiculous arguments ("Sagan ate loads of gummi bears, it must be a sign of replacing sugars because of doping!" for example), but a lot of the time, buried among the innuendos and accusations would be some genuine insight. And these guys who were elite athletic talents and who were doping up to their eyeballs are now minutes slower than the current guys. Sports science has only gone so far in that time though - the fact the UCI controls the message on doping is a huge conflict of interest because they have a vested interest in the sport not having the negative reputation that its doping history has brought it. The graph also raises some interesting queries, such as whether the graph would count somebody like, say, Giovanni Visconti, who was not sanctioned for doping but did serve a suspension for connections to Michele Ferrari? Known doping docs like Ibarguren are still in the sport. Hell, Marcos Maynar was involved in a bust last year, the guy responsible for LA-MSS in 2008! Top teams are coached and managed by known dopers and former managers of doped teams. Top riders are still being busted, we saw Miguel Ángel López and Nairo Quintana hounded out of the top level just this last off-season. They just aren't popping positive for EPO anymore - whether there is a new wonder-drug that is improving performances but is not yet banned, so everybody is taking it within the rules, whether the dopers and docs have got smarter to avoid tripping the wires, or whether the efficacy of the tests is less meaning fewer riders are caught (or the efficacy of the tests to stand up to legal scrutiny in the wake of cases like Kreuziger, Froome and Impey meaning that the cases against the riders have to be stronger now to trip the wire than they used to be so fewer riders are getting sanctioned publicly for their digressions) or whether the UCI is simply not targeting testing or announcing positives, that's the bit we don't know.

But I'm willing to put my hand in the fire and say there's a cocktail of some or all of those reasons that are why the number of positives and sanctioned riders is as low as it is, not that the péloton is almost totally paniagua now, because I don't believe for a second that what I've been watching in 2023 is cleaner than what I was watching in 2008 when the dopers who didn't get the memo about the sport trying to clean up were made to look like absolutely ridiculous outliers - and were going slower than the riders of today.
Yes. So long as the same body both polices AND promotes the sport you will never have credible testing. The UCI is proven to have been corrupt on numerous occasions. Testing has to be in the hands of a completely autonomous body.

Here (the UK) a few years ago one of our most respected documentary series investigated whether a clean triathlete could intentionally dope for the purposes of the programme and see if he could then test negative and not flag any passport irregularities. He microdosed on a concoction of PEDs and passed all tests with no passport anomalies. His performance rocketed by about 12%.

I'm guessing pretty much the whole peloton will be microdosing as a bare minimum so where these out of the world performances are coming from certain riders, who knows, but they're happening, and it's incredulous to think it's all down to advances in training, nutrition etc. Like you I believe it's a combination of huge advances in PED pharma in respect of traceability, effectiveness etc etc and a governing body which is far more concerned with protecting cycling's reputation than catching the cheats. Anyone who thinks the dark days are behind us is deluding themselves.
 
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Okay. I've been reading your comments the last few days and really enjoy the theories ranging from micro-dosing EPO to experimental mRNA-PED's and motor-doping. No real substance in the comments and i'm beginning to think it's just the same dozen of guys winding each other up and confirming crazy theories to one another.

Your biggest issue seem to be the fact that JV was 5% better on the ITT. That's a couple of standard deviations. Seems like much. There will always be outliers in sports. Guys that are better than the field. Look at this article.


Tiger's dominance was unexplainable. Was he using experimental clubhead-PED's. What about Federer? Did he use mRNA-PEDs?

Fact is that riders in the Peloton does not believe JV is doping (at least the riders who have commented publicly don't):

1) Halland Johannessen to NRK (19/7): You look at the tempo, it's not just raw power, he (JV) is driving technically sound and doing everything else right. There's probably also some who say that i have been doping and i know that i havent touched anything. I don't belive he (JV) is doping i just believe he is in peak performance at the moment.

2) Bettiol as referenced several times earlier in this thread

3) Michael Rasmussen to EB 20/7: JV is the most aerodynamic rider in the field (...) We can't start to suspect someone just because they are fast, when there is no circumstantial evidence

I am personally not convinced and until there is some circumstantial evidence i will let him have the benefit of the doubt.
I hope time will not prove this wrong. Send me an e-mail when you get something concrete.
Edgy. I like it.

Would it pass your sniff test if a male 10k runner in a major meet took off, lapped the field and finished when the second best is at 9500m?

Personally, I would have a hard time rationalising that.

If you take the 10k WR (26:11, or about 1571 seconds; avg lap time 62,9 sec), Vingo's TT (32:36, or about 1956 seconds), the gap to Pog (98 seconds) and adjust for the different effort durations, the extrapolated just-as-dominatn performance gap in a 26:11 effort would be about 79sec (1571sec / 1956sec * 98sec).

If this is unfair, say the best only laps the field.
 
The whole cornering in that small descend and others might be relevant compared to Pog. Not sure if that stick still holds against WVA/Küng/.. others. And those 5 second he got on Pog this way are not the part on which people think it was an surreal performance. For that we have the power numbers which he gave himself about the part where he 'relaxed'. (the other are approximations of 6.8W/kg for at least 20minutes) (and FYI: these power numbers are done on a TT bike/position).

The average speed of the time trial was 37km/h? (ving was the only one above 40). I'm pretty sure that aero advantage is getting serious diminishing returns the lower the speeds are. So him being the most aero in a TT with avg <40km/h isn't a compelling argument to rid 4km/h faster.
 
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Cycling is much more than just endurance, I do not think any comparisons with running is valid. Especially in a hard ITT with climbs where pacing(just one of many factors) can have a huge impact.
I agree, of course. The point of this mechanistic exercise was to establish ballpark only, ie. visualise what a similar degree of dominance would appear like in another sport.

Perhaps such a juxtaposition could then feed everyone's imagination assessing what we just witnessed in the hallowed sport of cycling.
 
Okay. I've been reading your comments the last few days and really enjoy the theories ranging from micro-dosing EPO to experimental mRNA-PED's and motor-doping. No real substance in the comments and i'm beginning to think it's just the same dozen of guys winding each other up and confirming crazy theories to one another.

You need to differentiate the speculations of how something could be achieved like this under the biopassport regime from the extrapolation from the facts that are available at hand.
To understand where the motivation for all the theories comes from, you have to take only a small look into the still recent history of cycling of the last 30 years. You'll find that there has been indeed a lot of systematic doping in a lager systemic context in cycling done by multiple parties.
The most prominent case of course is Armstrong. The experience we made in the Armstrong era was that in the end it is even possible to buy off the institutions that are supposed to control you.
There was of course also Operation Puerto - the largest case of them all. What you might not know is that the bloodbags in that lab were only partly dedicated to cyclists. Of the ones that were dedicated to cyclists only a small fraction ever got caught or penalized. Whoms bloodbags all the other bloodbags were we don't know, but there have been pointers towards tennis and football. Fuentes, the doctor incriminated back then, once remarked that he is not going to talk about foogball, because he values his own life. May be hyperbole, but then again football has the most extreme numbers when it comes to testosterone anomalies e.g. - so that indicates that there is probably a problem. It also has a very bad testing regime, as has tennis.



Your biggest issue seem to be the fact that JV was 5% better on the ITT. That's a couple of standard deviations. Seems like much. There will always be outliers in sports. Guys that are better than the field. Look at this article.


5% you say "seems like much" as if it wasn't. Yet 5% in pro-sports is absolutely massive.

Tiger's dominance was unexplainable. Was he using experimental clubhead-PED's. What about Federer? Did he use mRNA-PEDs?

These are very different sports that rely much more on feeling and technique, hand-eye-coordination, coordination full stop and so on. Sure bike handling is a thing, but cycling is a sport in which the technically inept can actually make pro ranks. This is impossible in Golf or Tennis. Or football for that matter. In other words: raw power plays a much much larger role in cycling.
Nadal e.g. would be an example of a tennis paying style that would directly benefit from PEDs btw.

Fact is that riders in the Peloton does not believe JV is doping (at least the riders who have commented publicly don't):

1) Halland Johannessen to NRK (19/7): You look at the tempo, it's not just raw power, he (JV) is driving technically sound and doing everything else right. There's probably also some who say that i have been doping and i know that i havent touched anything. I don't belive he (JV) is doping i just believe he is in peak performance at the moment.

2) Bettiol as referenced several times earlier in this thread

3) Michael Rasmussen to EB 20/7: JV is the most aerodynamic rider in the field (...) We can't start to suspect someone just because they are fast, when there is no circumstantial evidence

I am personally not convinced and until there is some circumstantial evidence i will let him have the benefit of the doubt.
I hope time will not prove this wrong. Send me an e-mail when you get something concrete.

Fact is: the existing culture of doping always rested on something know as omerta. It's a code of silence. Many of the old guard, the old dopers, and the old special-fuel team managers have gone nowhere and remain in the sport. So it is not very likely the general culture inside the sport has changed much. It just was better regulated, maybe even well regulated, for a while. That there is no outcry therefore is read by us on the backdrop of the history of cycling and the people involved in the sport, not as a reasuring sign, but as another red-flag that things are fully out of controll again.

The fact is that the speeds have gone up drastically all of a sudden, as have the estimated watts/kg for the efforts achieved. I mentioned this in another post but back in the day when the passport was introduced the scientific consesus was that 6,0 watts/kg is the threshold for a sustained effort that humans can realisticly achieve. And that's also in line with what we know of GT winners pre-EPO. Now it looks like you need closer to 7 watts/kg in an sustained effort to win the Tour. That's what Ferrari, Amstrongs doctor, once heralded as the number to win you the TdF, back in the dark ages.

So the root of the issue does not lie in weather any specific speculation to explain this shift are true or not, but weather the extrapolation from the data that there is something going on that should not be going on is justified. The numbers say we are back in the 90ies, and the 90ies were above the natural physiological limit of humans. All the explanations given for this have been copycats of the stories given by dopers for why they are in fact not doped, but just found a natural loophole. It is the exact same stories. This is why they don't instill trust into anyone who's wittnessed the dark ages. The argument is, and has been made in this thead, that the stories all used to be BS, but now all of a sudden they are, for the first time eve, actually true. Believe that if you will, it doesn't seem epistemically well founded to me.
 
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You need to differentiate the speculations of how something could be achieved like this under the biopassport regime from the extrapolation from the facts that are available at hand.
To understand where the motivation for all the theories comes from, you have to take only a small look into the still recent history of cycling of the last 30 years. You'll find that there has been indeed a lot of systematic doping in a lager systemic context in cycling done by multiple parties.
The most prominent case of course is Armstrong. The experience we made in the Armstrong era was that in the end it is even possible to buy off the institutions that are supposed to control you.
There was of course also Operation Puerto - the largest case of them all. What you might not know is that the bloodbags in that lab were only partly dedicated to cyclists. Of the ones that were dedicated to cyclists only a small fraction ever got caught or penalized. Whoms bloodbags all the other bloodbags were we don't know, but there have been pointers towards tennis and football. Fuentes, the doctor incriminated back then, one remarked that he is not going to talk about foogball, because he values his own life. May be hyperbole, but then again football has the most extreme numbers when it comes to testosterone anomalies e.g. - so that indicates that there is probably a problem. It also has a very bad testing regime, as has tennis.





5% you say "seems like much" as if it wasn't. Yet 5% in pro-sports is absolutely massive.



These are very different sports that rely much more on feeling and technique, hand-eye-coordination, coordination full stop and so on. Sure bike handling is a thing, but cycling is a sport in which the technically inept can actually make pro ranks. This is impossible in Golf or Tennis. Or football for that matter. In other words: raw power plays a much much larger role in cycling.
Nadal e.g. would be an example of a tennis paying style that would directly benefit from PEDs btw.



Fact is: the existing culture of doping always rested on something know as omerta. It's a code of silence. Many of the old guard, the old dopers, and the old special-fuel team managers have gone nowhere and remain in the sport. So it is not very likely the general culture inside the sport has changed much. It just was better regulated, maybe even well regulated, for a while. That there is no outcry therefore is read by us on the backdrop of the history of cycling and the people involved in the sport, not as a reasuring sign, but as another red-flag that things are fully out of controll again.

The fact is that the speeds have gone up drastically all of a sudden, as have the estimated watts/kg for the efforts achieved. I mentioned this in another post but back in the day when the passport was introduced the scientific consesus was that 6,0 watts/kg is the threshold for a sustained effort that humans can realisticly achieve. And that's also in line with what we know of GT winners pre-EPO. Now it looks like you need closer to 7 watts/kg in an sustained effort to win the Tour. That's what Ferrari, Amstrongs doctor, once heralded as the number to win you the TdF, back in the dark ages.

So the root of the issue does not lie in weather any specific speculation to explain this shift are true or not, but weather the extrapolation from the data that there is something going on that should not be going on is justified. The numbers say we are back in the 90ies, and the 90ies were above the natural physiological limit of humans. All the explanations given for this have been copycats of the stories given by dopers for why they are in fact not doped, but just found a natural loophole. It is the exact same stories. This is why they don't instill trust into anyone who's wittnessed the dark ages. The argument is, and has been made in this thead, that the stories all used to be BS, but now all of a sudden they are, for the first time eve, actually true. Believe that if you will, it doesn't seem epistemically well founded to me.
Excellent post.
 
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So not using means he's never noticed the debate, his informed decision to not use is based on ... what?

Here it's not a question of what he's using or not using, it's a question of what he's aware of, what planet he's been living of if he's not aware of this debate.

Well they keep saying he is from another planet, maybe he's been living on Mars... 😉
 
I've been on the edge ever since de Gendt said, that he couldn't get into breaks any more pushing the same watts as always. I just happily ignored it untill yesterday for most of the time.

There was talk on GCN breakaway, just before the itt stage blew up, so I doubt it will get mentioned again,but they had been told by riders they knew, that the grupetto regularly ride at a min 350watts baseline now, all day. And that's why the likes of de Gendt said he was struggling to get in breaks, because the goalposts have shifted, quite abit on wattages required just to be considered 'normal'.
 
LOL his knees were at times so wide he could almost touch the trees on the roadside.

You could put a sail on his head and he would win the TT anyway.
I’m a maths lecturer but it’s summer holidays so I won’t bore myself and others with numbers. I’ve been watching cycling for over 45 years and Vingo’s tt was the most bonkers performance I’ve ever seen. Forget all the weasel explanations. One word-Power. Vingo is at another level from last year. I believe a big reason for Pog’s bonk yesterday was that he’s been going too deep to match this new super level by Vingo and the bubble burst.
 
I also find it interesting, that bar Hamilton e.g., the explanations have always been the same. Nutrition, better technology, magical gains. Always some small edge no one had thought about before, that in reality is just a new word for something old most of the time.

The story tracks. We do have better bikes now and we have better nutrition and anyone that has ever trained seriously has had their diet tuned up and probably seen some results. That line hits you in the feels.

I shut up over the last few years, just trying to enjoy the show but seeing how ordinary Vinge looked in Paris-Nice, seeing him put a dig in in the Pyrenees and then not being able to respond on the subsequent days and then seeing yesterday's ITT and today... that's one hell of a diet.
 
interesting article in the Süddeutsche Zeitung (just posted online). Translated with google:

Doubts are part of cycling - but not just cycling

Jonas Vingegaard can no longer take the tour victory - and skepticism accompanies him. In view of the current achievements and the history of the sport, this is also imperative. But not only there.

Commentary by Johannes Aumüller

Just how much the credibility of cycling is at stake was shown this week when the head of the Tour de France commented on the insane performance of the top pedallers. "The questions about the various suspicions are absolutely not unjustified," said Christian Prudhomme. And his second was: But the yellow jersey is tested every day! And as if the tour wanted to document extra zeal, blood tests were carried out on the buses of the two leading teams on Wednesday, just before the king's stage. So at Jumbo, whose captain Jonas Vingegaard is now virtually the winner of the tour, and at UAE, whose leader Tadej Pogacar lost almost six minutes on the section in question.At this point, a short guessing game, how many tests did the super doper Lance Armstrong get through without damage? Correct: several hundred. No, that doesn't mean testing is unnecessary. But that also means that negative tests are not ironclad proof.

Doubt is part of cycling, it deserves it - and not just cycling, by the way. In sport, heroic glorification sometimes takes on strange proportions. If someone wins a lot in tennis, a physically extremely demanding sport with numerous cases of doping and a test system that is far more ridiculous than that in cycling, that is a reason for a skeptical view. And also when the well-known players in the football industry play more and more games with ever greater intensity. Especially when you remember how many doping cases there have already been in football and that the test system there is even more ridiculous than that in tennis. Or when one of the absolutely successful coaches is someone like Pep Guardiola, who as a player himself once had to serve out a doping ban and who once said on health issues: "If the doctor says the player will be fit in eight weeks, I want him in seven weeks." Why doesn't cycling disclose all performance data?But that doesn't change the fact that cycling has to live with doubts about its history, and Vingegaard and Pogacar, who claim to be clean, have themselves expressed understanding. They've roared up the mountains in a freak show and Vingegaard capped it off with a remarkable doubles as this week he put in a spectacular time trial and then distanced his rival (by a record, of course) at the Col de la Loze. And yes, it seems human in a way when Pogacar - like last year - catches a tour day where he completely collapses. But at the same time, moments like that of 1998, when Jan Ullrich lost almost nine minutes to Marco Pantani in one day in the Alps, should also be remembered; 15 years later, a report stated that re-tests of doping samples from the tour at that time were found at both EPO.

There are certainly approaches as to how cycling could underpin its alleged new cleanliness: namely radical transparency. There was an unusual moment around Vingegaard's time trial demonstration when the Dane spoke in a kind of feigned openness about how surprised he was when he looked at the speedometer: he had used 380 watts instead of the expected 360. You can believe that or think it's a wrong track, and Vingegaard also restricted that it only referred to the flat section. But teams generally keep all data a state secret, even at current weight, let alone critical performance metrics. No, cycling should clearly disclose what its heroes are doing. Then the competition might know better, but it should be worth it in the name of credibility.

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(aside from ze germans still butthurt about Marco destroying Der Kaiser, a good article after all:))
 
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