Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[meat puppet]

Yeah, in hindsight it was a bad call UAE/Pig did not participate. Why was that anyway?

 

[magliaroz]

Yeah, in hindsight it was a bad call UAE/Pig did not participate. Why was that anyway?

They are payed to do sportwashing by a human rights hellhole like UAE, I'm guessing the big bosses in the desert got scared to be portrayed as villains.
Pretty stupid on their part, considering that they got the "bad guy" treatment anyways and their champ Tadej has mastered the art of looking like an innocent puppy for the cameras like no one else. The guy is a borderline manipulator, I'm still baffled that he managed to befriend VDP.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Zach Nehr gets his calculator out again -
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...gaards-tt-and-sep-kuss-on-the-col-de-la-loze/
"After 19 minutes of riding full gas on the TT bike, Vingegaard produced the most insane climbing performance I’ve ever seen. There is no comparison to the power and speed that Vingegaard did on the climb to Combloux.

The 26-year-old Dane pushed ~7.5w/kg for over 13 minutes on his time trial bike, which is one of the most incredible performances in cycling history.
These power values were estimated using a variety of data, including years of historical power data from this exact climb to Combloux. The exact power numbers will never be 100%, especially when you consider calibration factors, temperatures, power meter brands, and more. But all that matters is that Jonas Vingegaard went insanely fast up the climb to Combloux, and I can say with 99.99% certainty that he did well over 7.3w/kg for 13 minutes…after already time trialing at 50.6 kph for 19 minutes."
He was loaded with a lot of love!

0,8 Watts more than Pogacars already fully crazy 6,7 they calculated for the same part of the TT. Does anyone remember what Armstrongs best performance was in a comparable effort?

In the same article they also mention that Gall did 6.1 watts/kg up Loze. In the third week. I am wondering: would Froome even be in the Top 10? Like prime Froome?

 

[46&twoWheels]

0,8 Watts more than Pogacars already fully crazy 6,7 they calculated for the same part of the TT. Does anyone remember what Armstrongs best performance was in a comparable effort?

In the same article they also mention that Gall did 6.1 watts/kg up Loze. In the third week. I am wondering: would Froome even be in the Top 10? Like prime Froome?

historically, considering climbing ITT performances, only Rominger and Ugrumov (in the 17th Giro stage in 1995 ) were able to sustain 7.0 w/kg for 15 minutes (both on Colle Gallo).
This was the stage: https://www.la-flamme-rouge.eu/maps/viewtrack/200515. This stage was crazy. Even Berzin went nuts with 6.75 w/kg (23 minutes effort) on Selvino.
Ullrich 6.99 for 23 minutes in 1997 on Col de la Croix de Chaubouret

if we talk about normal stages, we have several longer performances with 7.0 w/kg sustained for at least 20 minutes. I didn't find Armstrong in the graphs below.

Numbers are taken from here:

Vingegaard Destroys Tadej Pogačar in Week 3 | Tour de France 2023 Stages 16 & 17 - Lanterne Rouge

Jonas Vingegaard performed exceptionally well at the beginning of this third week of the Tour de France, winning the time-trial on Stage 16 with one of the greatest performances of all time, and on the Queen Stage the next day being the fastest from the GC group. In this article we will take a...

lanternerouge.com

 

[Savant12]

Peak Froome could make the podium but he is not consistently good over 3 weeks to compete with Pog and the eternal fresh Vingo.

 

[meat puppet]

So then the prevailing educated opinion of the clinic is that UAE/Pogacar came up with some kind of substance or protocol which enabled him to beat the snot out of all the clean or inadequately doped competition, but then Jumbo/Vingegaard developed something that totally trumped whatever Pogacar was on, and that even though no one else seems to be able to avail themselves of any of this rocket fuel they will all keep quiet because....omerta. Is that about right?

Can only speak for myself but I think it's a lot more mundane than that. Overload, progression, specificity and rest are the well established principles of training. Doping amplifies them, but doesn't remove them.

I assume Jumbo and UAE have more or less equally potent prep regimes, but obviously cannot substantiate on that.

Keep in mind though that absent Vingo, and Pog both stomps the field and does not collapse himself.

On top of that I think:

1) Vingo's physical constitution and mindset, whichever way they are attained, are better suited to GC racing. His prep was also very good and specific.

2) Pog lost a huge chunk of training volume after the crash. One can use turbo riding as a substitute to an extent, but in the end 6hr days of climbing at altitude win. This is how you build the required base in a specific manner.

Also if he was on a heavy weight loss regime after the classics, it probably doesn't hel. Unless one goes full Sky and lets TUE-ed intramuscular kenacort just eat the excess away.

Pog was brutally dropped on the Marie Blanque, then suddenly gained the capacity to occasionally drop Vingo and rival Mr. Pantani's climb times; but, in short order he also lost the capacity to drop his rival. To me it was fairly straightforward to conclude he was running out of base. I assumed he would pull a monster performance in the ITT and collapse on the Loze, which he did. Only Vingo completely stole his thunder with his bemusing stunt.

3) The two may have deployed their resources during the tour at different times. This refers to both the clinical stuff (good ol' blood bags) and the riders' capacities to recover from going into the red. The user extinction in particular has stressed that given the circumstances, Pog was effed trying to follow Vingo no matter what, and I think he is onto something. Threshold power level relative to rider weight and especially the capacity to repeat efforts at this level is decisive in the immediate sense. Day to day recovery is decisive in the mid-term.

Of course their prep regimes may also greatly differ, but IMHO you don't need this premise to explain what we saw regarding JV and Pog's relative performance difference. As for absolute levels, it's anyone's guess.

It's an aerobic sport, dammit, and base rules.

 

[Riek s]

Zach Nehr gets his calculator out again -
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...gaards-tt-and-sep-kuss-on-the-col-de-la-loze/
"After 19 minutes of riding full gas on the TT bike, Vingegaard produced the most insane climbing performance I’ve ever seen. There is no comparison to the power and speed that Vingegaard did on the climb to Combloux.

The 26-year-old Dane pushed ~7.5w/kg for over 13 minutes on his time trial bike, which is one of the most incredible performances in cycling history.
These power values were estimated using a variety of data, including years of historical power data from this exact climb to Combloux. The exact power numbers will never be 100%, especially when you consider calibration factors, temperatures, power meter brands, and more. But all that matters is that Jonas Vingegaard went insanely fast up the climb to Combloux, and I can say with 99.99% certainty that he did well over 7.3w/kg for 13 minutes…after already time trialing at 50.6 kph for 19 minutes."
He was loaded with a lot of love!

So he is doing: 440W - 450W for 13minutes... (after 2 weeks of hard racing). That way doing 380W makes sense as a 'easy effort' :')
Pog is doing: 440W-450W for 13 minutes... (after 2 weeks of hard racing). Needs 6kg more bodyweight to get there...
What did VanAert push? assuming WVA did 5.9W/kg and is 75kg, he would push similar power levels :')''.


Which would also mean that Vingegaard got about 40W-50W power increase over when he was 18 (coll de rate). (assuming that 2 weeks of racing and going flat out 20minutes before has no impact on doing a fresh 13min effort).

 

[Rackham]

Yeah, in hindsight it was a bad call UAE/Pig did not participate. Why was that anyway?

I don't know. I seem to remember they said something about not wanting a disrupting outside presence in their team (in fact this was presented as 'suspect' in & of itself in some conversations, like they had something to hide, i.e. which is evidence of how the balance between good & bad public relations is extremely fragile).

With regards to Jumbo, their "Danish Dynamite" put them in an embarrassing situation on Tuesday & they've now devolved into Armstrong-esque bash the French talk, i.e. "they don't like winners": https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ju...on-over-vingegaards-tour-de-france-dominance/

He has also been in this game long enough to know that no amount of Netflix documentaries or power analyses will eradicate all the scepticism that greets a performance as dominant as Vingegaard's. He insisted, however, that the climate of suspicion would not temper Jumbo-Visma's celebration of their success.

"No, not at all. We know what we do and that's why we are happy with this," Plugge said. "I have to admit that maybe especially the French are always very sceptical, you know. If it's not us and it's Pogačar or whoever is winning gets it. Apparently if you win in cycling, to the French you apparently never can do it do it right. Me, I would say, 'Come over, we can tell you everything.' I answer every question, like I do now."

F*cking French eh, I guess it's too bad the Tour de France takes place... in France. And sorry Mr Plugge, it's not the winning which makes people think your rider is full of radioactive sh*t, it's the 'how' you win. In this instance, destroying the field in an ITT with the biggest seconds per km gains since the 1960's in the third week of a Tour which already had stratospheric ascent times & average speeds.

 

[SafeBet]

Latest Instagram post suggests UAE and Pogacar will feature in the Netflix documentary season 2.

 

[Rackham]

More mainstream coverage of the suspicions, this time in the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...nas-vingegaard-after-dominance-tour-de-france

White noise of scepticism shrouds Vingegaard after Tour dominance​

 

[Salvarani]

In hindsight, that Netflix documentary was some sort of master coup of propaganda, i.e. Pogačar got the 'bad guy' label whilst Jumbo presented themselves as heroes overcoming an invincible adversary. Their "we're the underdogs" messaging is in conflict with their "show the world who is the strongest" stuff (& smashing the dude by 7 minutes this year) but the damage is done, i.e. Vingegaard is portrayed as a loving father & introvert from a peaceful, lovable little Danish community where packing fish is a rite of passage towards doing 7.5w/kg for 13 minutes.

Everything about Jumbo's TdF venture is corporate to the extreme, i.e. #rideyourdreams & all that stuff. Whilst Pog was messing about with Marc Soler in a swimming pool on rest day, Vingegaard was getting a professionally edited video interview about "making the dream come true" by taking the jersey to Paris (some cringe stuff like that).

Skeletor even did a voice recording for a children's bedtime audiobook as part of Jumbo's marketing campaign (like he's the star of a Disney movie): https://www.teamjumbovisma.com/shop/tour-de-france/reading-book-en-2023-the-velodrome/

So I'd say he's so full of sh*t but tbh that's not entirely accurate considering those 500 grams he probably dropped before the recording, yet the point stands: Jumbo are fake as f*ck.

I think there are two different media-strategies here.

UAE plays more into Pog and his personality. It is about having fun, enjoying life and make people think/see "what is he up to now?", sort of to mirror the way he rides on the bike I am assuming. It goes hand in hand.

When Jumbo is much more extreme, serious, polished, perfect... one could even say fabricated. They are old-school.

They go about it differently with the same goal in the end. I know which one I prefer, whether that makes me a hypocrite... then so be it.

 

[Ricco']

Now he just needs to write a book telling that while Pogacar is in Monaco enjoying coffee rides with his pals and going to the casinos, Vingegaard is all alone in the mountains, thinking of crushing the opposition with every pedal stroke up the volcano.


“It’s love though. Every ache and chill. Me and my Colnago and these hills. In love, everybody hurts. If you are serious about hills and bikes, it hurts.”
― Chris Froome, The Climb: The Autobiography

Guess LOVE was already a well known PED for at least a decade.


“Can you prove it? No. I know I’m clean. Can I prove it? No. You heard it all before from Lance Armstrong. Well, I’m not Lance Armstrong. You won’t get fooled again. Not by me you won’t, ever.”
― Chris Froome, The Climb: The Autobiography

"You won't get fooled again. Not by me you won't, ever"*

*unless your name is Sylvan Adams

 

[meat puppet]

Now he just needs to write a book telling that while Pogacar is in Monaco enjoying coffee rides with his pals and going to the casinos, Vingegaard is all alone in the mountains, thinking of crushing the opposition with every pedal stroke up the volcano.

Hmm, I bet current cycling mamils are more gullible to a narrative that is based on obsessive micromanagement of power, training, diet and whatever it is that can be optimised. The ghost writer would do well to borrow the structure from the latter parts of M. Foucault's History of sexuality and the subsequent lectures on the culture of the self.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Now he just needs to write a book telling that while Pogacar is in Monaco enjoying coffee rides with his pals and going to the casinos, Vingegaard is all alone in the mountains, thinking of crushing the opposition with every pedal stroke up the volcano

There are some comments on YouTube along these lines, under the highlight videos for stage 16

'simply, Jonas had 4-5 high altitude training camps, while Pogi is hanging around to much with his gf' is one I like a lot.

 

[Ricco']

'simply, Jonas had 4-5 high altitude training camps, while Pogi is hanging around to much with his gf' is one I like a lot.

Well, as intelligent folks say, love is complicated.

Too little love and you can't do 7.5 w/kg up some climb, too much love and you get beaten down like a nobody

 

[Salvarani]

There are some comments on YouTube along these lines, under the highlight videos for stage 16

'simply, Jonas had 4-5 high altitude training camps, while Pogi is hanging around to much with his gf' is one I like a lot.

But if Pog focused on love… is that not what they said made Jonas so good here in the Tour? Having his wife and kid with him.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

But if Pog focused on love… is that not what they said made Jonas so good here in the Tour? Having his wife and kid with him.

Having fun negates all your training efforts from the last 2 hours at least. It's why the backflip hurt Pogacar so much.

 

[topt]

They are payed to do sportwashing by a human rights hellhole like UAE, I'm guessing the big bosses in the desert got scared to be portrayed as villains.
Pretty stupid on their part, considering that they got the "bad guy" treatment anyways and their champ Tadej has mastered the art of looking like an innocent puppy for the cameras like no one else. The guy is a borderline manipulator, I'm still baffled that he managed to befriend VDP.

the amount of crap some are able to write here, I got no problems people connecting him to doping but shitting on character of people they dont know is to much.

 

[theyoungest]

In hindsight, that Netflix documentary was some sort of master coup of propaganda, i.e. Pogačar got the 'bad guy' label whilst Jumbo presented themselves as heroes overcoming an invincible adversary. Their "we're the underdogs" messaging is in conflict with their "show the world who is the strongest" stuff (& smashing the dude by 7 minutes this year) but the damage is done, i.e. Vingegaard is portrayed as a loving father & introvert from a peaceful, lovable little Danish community where packing fish is a rite of passage towards doing 7.5w/kg for 13 minutes.

Everything about Jumbo's TdF venture is corporate to the extreme, i.e. #rideyourdreams & all that stuff. Whilst Pog was messing about with Marc Soler in a swimming pool on rest day, Vingegaard was getting a professionally edited video interview about "making the dream come true" by taking the jersey to Paris (some cringe stuff like that).

Skeletor even did a voice recording for a children's bedtime audiobook as part of Jumbo's marketing campaign (like he's the star of a Disney movie): https://www.teamjumbovisma.com/shop/tour-de-france/reading-book-en-2023-the-velodrome/

So I'd say he's so full of sh*t but tbh that's not entirely accurate considering those 500 grams he probably dropped before the recording, yet the point stands: Jumbo are fake as f*ck.

Wow, your disappointment in your predictions about the race not coming to fruition has turned quite sour, I see. "Jumbo's tactics are never going to work, they need Roglic, they're arrogant because they believe they can do it this way". One week later, it turns out they were 100% right, but what do you do? Surely not admitting you were wrong. No, now Jumbo are a bunch of fakers.

The narrative you're trying to create doesn't correspond at all with reality, though. After the Loze stage, Merijn Zeeman almost seemed disappointed. He really hadn't liked to see Pogacar crack like that because he's a "great cyclist" and "it would be inappropriate to start cheering now". How's that for an arrogant faker? Wasn't Pogacar himself a bit more arrogant when he ridiculed Van Aert after stage 2? Pogacar, the "people's champion" as Cyclingnews now apparently likes to call him. You could even say that revenge has been sweet for Van Aert and his team. But you'll never hear them say that, they're always respectful to Pogi (maybe even a little too much).

As for the performance by Vingegaard in the time trial: sure, it was otherworldly. But the only guy who possibly could have beaten him clearly isn't on his best form ever anymore. That's something you obviously need to take into account. Add to that the stupid bike change, which cost him about 20 seconds, and the 40 seconds more he lost on the climb aren't even that huge... as he also didn't have the aero bars for the final few kms, which were clearly an advantage.

 

[Kwibus]

I don't know. I seem to remember they said something about not wanting a disrupting outside presence in their team (in fact this was presented as 'suspect' in & of itself in some conversations, like they had something to hide, i.e. which is evidence of how the balance between good & bad public relations is extremely fragile).

With regards to Jumbo, their "Danish Dynamite" put them in an embarrassing situation on Tuesday & they've now devolved into Armstrong-esque bash the French talk, i.e. "they don't like winners": https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ju...on-over-vingegaards-tour-de-france-dominance/



F*cking French eh, I guess it's too bad the Tour de France takes place... in France. And sorry Mr Plugge, it's not the winning which makes people think your rider is full of radioactive sh*t, it's the 'how' you win. In this instance, destroying the field in an ITT with the biggest seconds per km gains since the 1960's in the third week of a Tour which already had stratospheric ascent times & average speeds.

So all you have is the performance done by Vingegaard, which indeed was bonkers, but if that's all we have there is really nothing to accuse them of something. You found any other leads besides a performance?

I really think we should be critical in all sports regarding doping, but so far the only 'proof' there is is the performance. No doubt a lot of people are digging and looking for more, but nobody seems to find anything. Despite all the journalists, cameracrews that are inbedded in the team. I guess they were all bribed right?

The clinic should be renamed into the cynic.

Also it doesn't matter that Jumbo or Vingegaard say about doping. Everything will be seen as ***. It's an hopeless case for cycling in general.

 

[magliaroz]

Wow, your disappointment in your predictions about the race not coming to fruition has turned quite sour, I see. "Jumbo's tactics are never going to work, they need Roglic, they're arrogant because they believe they can do it this way". One week later, it turns out they were 100% right, but what do you do? Surely not admitting you were wrong. No, now Jumbo are a bunch of fakers.

The narrative you're trying to create doesn't correspond at all with reality, though. After the Loze stage, Merijn Zeeman almost seemed disappointed. He really hadn't liked to see Pogacar crack like that because he's a "great cyclist" and "it would be inappropriate to start cheering now". How's that for an arrogant faker? Wasn't Pogacar himself a bit more arrogant when he ridiculed Van Aert after stage 2? Pogacar, the "people's champion" as Cyclingnews now apparently likes to call him. You could even say that revenge has been sweet for Van Aert and his team. But you'll never hear them say that, they're always respectful to Pogi (maybe even a little too much).

As for the performance by Vingegaard in the time trial: sure, it was otherworldly. But the only guy who possibly could have beaten him clearly isn't on his best form ever anymore. That's something you obviously need to take into account. Add to that the stupid bike change, which cost him about 20 seconds, and the 40 seconds more he lost on the climb aren't even that huge... as he also didn't have the aero bars for the final few kms, which were clearly an advantage.

They are disappointed because now Jonas looks like he is the only alien left in the room.
Is Zeeman the one who called Pogacar a c*nt for beating Roglic? Or was it Niermann? But I guess it's easy to respect your rivals after you annihilated them.

 

[theyoungest]

They are disappointed because now Jonas looks like he is the only alien left in the room.
Is Zeeman the one who called Pogacar a c*nt for beating Roglic? Or was it Niermann? But I guess it's easy to respect your rivals after you annihilated them.

If it's any of these two, it's probably Niermann, but I doubt he used that word. It was Dumoulin who wondered how he could be beaten by a "guy who sits on his bike like a miner". He wasn't wrong though

 

[Salvarani]

They are disappointed because now Jonas looks like he is the only alien left in the room.
Is Zeeman the one who called Pogacar a c*nt for beating Roglic? Or was it Niermann? But I guess it's easy to respect your rivals after you annihilated them.

Bingo.

 

[Rackham]

Wow, your disappointment in your predictions about the race not coming to fruition has turned quite sour, I see. "Jumbo's tactics are never going to work, they need Roglic, they're arrogant because they believe they can do it this way". One week later, it turns out they were 100% right, but what do you do? Surely not admitting you were wrong. No, now Jumbo are a bunch of fakers.

I actually stopped reading here.

I can't make race predictions based on the possibility one guy is going to go 4.5 seconds per km faster than his rival (& 4km/h faster than the rest of the field) over a 22.4km's ITT.

I nope out. Nearly 3 minutes back to Wout van Aert (who was third, so not exactly sh*t either) on a rolling route? Yeah, how about no.

Jumbo could ride around for two weeks however they want (fast, slow, dressed like killer clowns) & they'd still nuke the field whenever they wish with that sort of power. That's not sport anymore & I have no interest in debating its merits.

 

[Kwibus]

I actually stopped reading here.

I can't make race predictions based on the possibility one guy is going to go 4.5 seconds per km faster than his rival (& 4km/h faster than the rest of the field) over a 22.4km's ITT.

I nope out. Nearly 3 minutes back to Wout van Aert (who was third, so not exactly sh*t either) on a rolling route? Yeah, how about no.

Jumbo could ride around for two weeks however they want (fast, slow, dressed like killer clowns) & they'd still nuke the field whenever they wish with that sort of power. That's not sport anymore & I have no interest in debating its merits.

Yes, Jumbo wins every stage they want and whenever they want. Same narrative again, you got nothing on them besides "they ride too fast".

Even when Sky dominated there atleast were some serious dubious TUE"s . There were parcels send of which nobody wanted to talk about. A doctor was thrown infront of a bus to take all the blame.
Well maybe this still has to come for Jumbo!