Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[46&twoWheels]

Except that in the 90s they were also quite a few kgs heavier.

You are aware that performances in all sports have improved over the last 30 years and specifically in cycling some teams have made huge steps compared to how they approaced the sport 15-30 years ago? I mean cycling was (and is) a very backward sport.

1) Some efforts are still at the limit of human physiology, regardless of talks about nutrition, bike weight, aereo factors and family love
2)history matters in cycling (as the Guardian article and the Süddeutsche Zeitung article posted here remind us)
3) transparency is still not taken seriously (corporate secret trumps everything else. Nobody knows what happens 99% of the time, behind the curtains).
4)Tech advancements applies to ANY field of Cycling (including the darkest side). Let's not forget this last point.

 

[ontheroad]

Except that in the 90s they were also quite a few kgs heavier.

You are aware that performances in all sports have improved over the last 30 years and specifically in cycling some teams have made huge steps compared to how they approaced the sport 15-30 years ago? I mean cycling was (and is) a very backward sport.

You might want to enlighten us, bearing in mind that one single rider was 8%+ better than the rest of the field (excluding Pogacar) in a race against the clock. What huge steps do you think could lead to such a time gap over all the other competitors. Or are we simply looking at a genetic freak?

And if it was/is a backward sport what should they be doing that they aren't already doing to improve performance? Bearing in mind that the top teams have an army of coaches, doctors, physios, nutritionists, scientists, mechanics etc etc.

 

[Kwibus]

It's fine you doubt a performance and I understand the performance of Vingegaard is very sus. It's just that there is nothing besides the performance. NOTHING.
I don't accuse anyone purely on a performance. Records are broken in every sport every year and only in cycling we directly say "DOPING".

I'm aware that I give Jumbo the benefit of the doubt probably because I'm dutch, but that's also because I listen to pretty much every dutch cycling podcast/newsitem. Over the years I've heard so many riders (active/formerly active) that were at the team, left the team, joined the team later or maybe weren't even at the team and they all can't believe/imagine that doping is supported by the team.
Recently Michel Elijzen even said this week that he actually would put his hand in the fire for this team. He knows the teammanagement so well and just can't believe/imagine that they use it. Thijs Zonneveld said that to Michel he is taking a big risk and will never do this for anyone, but did add that he doesn't do it because you can never know what individuals do. He has nothing, absolutely nothing, he can accuse Jumbo from allthough he is shocked by Vingegaards performance. I don't doubt for 1 second that Thijs Zonneveld will smack the hammer down on the team if he finds something, because that's what he has always done. Even when he discovered stuff from a rider/team that happened 15 years ago he would reveal it. He says that with everything he asked at Jumbo they always opened the door for him. They never said "no" to him despite his sometimes quite demanding requests.

This is just a few examples and I know this won't change the slighest on your opinions here, but there is an endless stream of examples like this.

Also I agree with Plugge when he says what more can we do? There doors are open at all times. They had a journalist around for 3 years who was allowed to be at everything they did. He listened along to meetings that took up to 4 hours. They have camera crews running around from multiple organisations all the time.
When I watch these cycling docu's I always wonder how I'd feel as rider with all those cameras on me all the time... It's almost 24/7 a camera on your face.

Anyways I'm in the wrong thread. I don't know who I'm trying to convince. Maybe I'm just naive... whatever!

 

[Kwibus]

Ah, the resorting to start arguing about pointless stuff... going away from the main topic. Not a bad strategy. The invaders are on it.

What have you done in this thread besides putting smileys and making comments like this?

 

[Salvarani]

What have you done in this thread besides putting smileys and making comments like this?

You are just funny!

Sad to see personal attacks. That was the next thing in line, I guess.

You can go back 20 pages and just start reading, buddy.

 

[Salvarani]

It is like there is people around... who really want this thread to stop gaining pages. Like stop writing here. Stop blowing it up.

Wonder why.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

It's fine you doubt a performance and I understand the performance of Vingegaard is very sus. It's just that there is nothing besides the performance. NOTHING.
I don't accuse anyone purely on a performance. Records are broken in every sport every year and only in cycling we directly say "DOPING".

I undertand your sentiment, but the records here in question are know to have been enabled by doping. After the big clean up it was established, that there are pysiological limits and the consesus was that the limit for watts/kg over a longer time was at ca. 6.0 watts/kg. Yet here we are, staring at 7 watts/kg and beyond again. This is a massive increase in performance. Back when they published Froomes data to prove he was believable he officially clocked in at 5,9 watts/kg over 20-40 minutes. This now keeps you in the Top 10 maybe. The numbers mean that a 4 time tour winner, from maximum 10 years ago, would have no chance whatsoever of winning the tour nowadays. This is just to extreme, I can't make myself believe this is not done unnaturally.

 

[magliaroz]

It is like there is people around... who really want this thread to stop gaining pages. Like stop writing here. Stop blowing it up.

Wonder why.

C'mon guys, don't you want him to beat Pogi in this race too?

 

[hrotha]

I'm aware that I give Jumbo the benefit of the doubt probably because I'm dutch, but that's also because I listen to pretty much every dutch cycling podcast/newsitem. Over the years I've heard so many riders (active/formerly active) that were at the team, left the team, joined the team later or maybe weren't even at the team and they all can't believe/imagine that doping is supported by the team. [...]

Come on man, you've been around for a while. You've heard and seen exactly this so many times before. You should know the drill by now. I get that nationalism is emotional, i.e. not rational, but surely you can take a few steps back and look at what you just wrote and think of how many people wrote exactly the same things before about other riders, other teams, other countries.

 

[Salvarani]

C'mon guys, don't you want him to beat Pogi in this race too?

Couldnt care less, but you seem to do! New account and all.

 

[ZaphodBeeble]

You might want to enlighten us, bearing in mind that one single rider was 8%+ better than the rest of the field (excluding Pogacar) in a race against the clock. What huge steps do you think could lead to such a time gap over all the other competitors. Or are we simply looking at a genetic freak?

Vingegaard is the only one:
- to take training seriously
- to reckon the parcours
- to be surrounded with love
- going 100% in this TT. It's only the TDF after all, who cares about a top 10 anyway. This was clearly seen when he was dropped by Bilbao the next day (who by the way took 14s in that last climb, this really shows that Pog clearly doesn't know when to attack)

Also Pog massively underperform, he only gained 1'30 on Wout what a loser.

 

[theyoungest]

I undertand your sentiment, but the records here in question are know to have been enabled by doping. After the big clean up it was established, that there are pysiological limits and the consesus was that the limit for watts/kg over a longer time was at ca. 6.0 watts/kg. Yet here we are, staring at 7 watts/kg and beyond again. This is a massive increase in performance. Back when they published Froomes data to prove he was believable he officially clocked in at 5,9 watts/kg over 20-40 minutes. This now keeps you in the Top 10 maybe. The numbers mean that a 4 time tour winner, from maximum 10 years ago, would have no chance whatsoever of winning the tour nowadays. This is just to extreme, I can't make myself believe this is not done unnaturally.

Well, I can say, regarding Ineos vs. Jumbo, that according to Van Baarle there's a bigger difference between the teams than he expected beforehand. Jumbo are way ahead in terms of nutrition. Of course there are people who will doubt this, and say that Jumbo just have the better drugs, but then I wonder why don't Ineos have these drugs at their disposal? What on earth could Jumbo or Vingegaard be taking that nobody else is taking? And if they can really make someone perform 8% better than the field at will, why don't they do the same for Van Aert in the classics? I'm sure he'd love to finally win a cobbled monument.

 

[hrotha]

Well, I can say, regarding Ineos vs. Jumbo, that according to Van Baarle there's a bigger difference between the teams than he expected beforehand. Jumbo are way ahead in terms of nutrition. Of course there are people who will doubt this, and say that Jumbo just have the better drugs, but then I wonder why don't Ineos have these drugs at their disposal? What on earth could Jumbo or Vingegaard be taking that nobody else is taking?

How does this argument make any sense when the exact same thing would apply to having better nutrition

 

[theyoungest]

How does this argument make any sense when the exact same thing would apply to having better nutrition

I think there's rather a difference between having a better nutrition plan and having found some magic potion that makes you go 8% faster. It can't be the ketones, reportedly Vingegaard doesn't take those (of course, nobody in this thread will believe that either )

 

[Kwibus]

You are just funny!

Sad to see personal attacks. That was the next thing in line, I guess.

You can go back 20 pages and just start reading, buddy.

Ok no problem. I didn't read the last 20 pages so my bad, but all I saw so far was what I said. Hence my comments.
To be fair maybe you should also look at yourself if you wonder why somebody comments on you like this.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Kwibus]

It is like there is people around... who really want this thread to stop gaining pages. Like stop writing here. Stop blowing it up.

Wonder why.

I don't understand what you are implying. (not kidding). Please enlighten me.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Well, I can say, regarding Ineos vs. Jumbo, that according to Van Baarle there's a bigger difference between the teams than he expected beforehand. Jumbo are way ahead in terms of nutrition.

Well I don't doubt that they can be more professional when it comes to nutrition. But have you ever heard of a diet that makes you insanely stronger? Mind you we are talking pros here, it's usually small gains to can get out of new developments not huge ones. There are upsides and downsides to diets, usually there's not a single best one for any set of humans. It would surprise me if a gigantic breakthrough would remain relatively unknown and would only be practiced by JV or only a few teams.

Of course there are people who will doubt this, and say that Jumbo just have the better drugs, but then I wonder why don't Ineos have these drugs at their disposal?

They don't necessarily have to have better drugs, they could also just be better at using them to the best effect. The speeds are not just problematic when it comes to Pogacar or Vingegaard, even though it's insane how far beyond everyone else they are, so I am not very optimisitc that whatever is going on is restricted to only two teams. Nonetheless there were also EPO pioneers of course, so some may have a head start and if you find a new drug or a better method you don't go around advertising it to everyone.

What on earth could Jumbo or Vingegaard be taking that nobody else is taking? And if they can really make someone perform 8% better than the field at will, why don't they do the same for Van Aert in the classics? I'm sure he'd love to finally win a cobbled monument.

I don't think they can make any rider 8% stronger than the field and apparently they were themselves shocked by Vingegaards performance. He didn't believe his own power meter even. So if they upped there game with something this might have been an accident by overdoing it.
Different riders also react differently, and WvA is a very good example of a rather astonishing rider performance wise, his inability to win monuments aside.

 

[Kwibus]

I undertand your sentiment, but the records here in question are know to have been enabled by doping. After the big clean up it was established, that there are pysiological limits and the consesus was that the limit for watts/kg over a longer time was at ca. 6.0 watts/kg. Yet here we are, staring at 7 watts/kg and beyond again. This is a massive increase in performance. Back when they published Froomes data to prove he was believable he officially clocked in at 5,9 watts/kg over 20-40 minutes. This now keeps you in the Top 10 maybe. The numbers mean that a 4 time tour winner, from maximum 10 years ago, would have no chance whatsoever of winning the tour nowadays. This is just to extreme, I can't make myself believe this is not done unnaturally.

Ok fair enough.
I would like a new scientific investigation on those natural limits though. Not likely going to happen I'm afraid.
Also who/what established that pysiological limit at that time.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but that's just what I thought when I read this.

 

[Salvarani]

Ok no problem. I didn't read the last 20 pages so my bad, but all I saw so far was what I said. Hence my comments.
To be fair maybe you should also look at yourself if you wonder why somebody comments on you like this.
Just my 2 cents.

So you are trying to guilt trip me? Just stop.

You are being naive and ridiculous. Your only goal seems to be is to derail this thread. We are having none of it.

 

[The Clogger]

The Pogacar Fan Club in shambles

 

[Salvarani]

I don't understand what you are implying. (not kidding). Please enlighten me.

There is absolutely no point in talking to you.

 

[Salvarani]

The Pogacar Fan Club in shambles

Nobody is in a fan club. They are both in the same boat, fyi. One being much stronger than the other. Then there is the rest... at the moment far behind these two, but they are probably not very innocent themselves.

Vinge brought this on himself... with his best "human" performance of all time in the TT.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Well, I can say, regarding Ineos vs. Jumbo, that according to Van Baarle there's a bigger difference between the teams than he expected beforehand. Jumbo are way ahead in terms of nutrition. Of course there are people who will doubt this, and say that Jumbo just have the better drugs, but then I wonder why don't Ineos have these drugs at their disposal? What on earth could Jumbo or Vingegaard be taking that nobody else is taking? And if they can really make someone perform 8% better than the field at will, why don't they do the same for Van Aert in the classics? I'm sure he'd love to finally win a cobbled monument.

I've heard the same from both DVB and Rohan Dennis, yet both have fairly sharply regressed since they left Ineos

In fact I can only really think of Laporte who is better now than he was at his old team (Cofidis)

 

[Ripper]

In hindsight, that Netflix documentary was some sort of master coup of propaganda, i.e. Pogačar got the 'bad guy' label whilst Jumbo presented themselves as heroes overcoming an invincible adversary. Their "we're the underdogs" messaging is in conflict with their "show the world who is the strongest" stuff (& smashing the dude by 7 minutes this year) but the damage is done, i.e. Vingegaard is portrayed as a loving father & introvert from a peaceful, lovable little Danish community where packing fish is a rite of passage towards doing 7.5w/kg for 13 minutes.

Everything about Jumbo's TdF venture is corporate to the extreme, i.e. #rideyourdreams & all that stuff. Whilst Pog was messing about with Marc Soler in a swimming pool on rest day, Vingegaard was getting a professionally edited video interview about "making the dream come true" by taking the jersey to Paris (some cringe stuff like that).

Skeletor even did a voice recording for a children's bedtime audiobook as part of Jumbo's marketing campaign (like he's the star of a Disney movie): https://www.teamjumbovisma.com/shop/tour-de-france/reading-book-en-2023-the-velodrome/

So I'd say he's so full of sh*t but tbh that's not entirely accurate considering those 500 grams he probably dropped before the recording, yet the point stands: Jumbo are fake as f*ck.

Jisma are hilarious, but can you blame them for making the most of it? UAE are a different version of fake and ridiculous, and ToddyPog's image is also carefully curated, but because he's a charismatic guy, it's ok?

 

[Ripper]

Can only speak for myself but I think it's a lot more mundane than that. Overload, progression, specificity and rest are the well established principles of training. Doping amplifies them, but doesn't remove them.

I assume Jumbo and UAE have more or less equally potent prep regimes, but obviously cannot substantiate on that.

Keep in mind though that absent Vingo, and Pog both stomps the field and does not collapse himself.

On top of that I think:

1) Vingo's physical constitution and mindset, whichever way they are attained, are better suited to GC racing. His prep was also very good and specific.

2) Pog lost a huge chunk of training volume after the crash. One can use turbo riding as a substitute to an extent, but in the end 6hr days of climbing at altitude win. This is how you build the required base in a specific manner.

Also if he was on a heavy weight loss regime after the classics, it probably doesn't hel. Unless one goes full Sky and lets TUE-ed intramuscular kenacort just eat the excess away.

Pog was brutally dropped on the Marie Blanque, then suddenly gained the capacity to occasionally drop Vingo and rival Mr. Pantani's climb times; but, in short order he also lost the capacity to drop his rival. To me it was fairly straightforward to conclude he was running out of base. I assumed he would pull a monster performance in the ITT and collapse on the Loze, which he did. Only Vingo completely stole his thunder with his bemusing stunt.

3) The two may have deployed their resources during the tour at different times. This refers to both the clinical stuff (good ol' blood bags) and the riders' capacities to recover from going into the red. The user extinction in particular has stressed that given the circumstances, Pog was effed trying to follow Vingo no matter what, and I think he is onto something. Threshold power level relative to rider weight and especially the capacity to repeat efforts at this level is decisive in the immediate sense. Day to day recovery is decisive in the mid-term.

Of course their prep regimes may also greatly differ, but IMHO you don't need this premise to explain what we saw regarding JV and Pog's relative performance difference. As for absolute levels, it's anyone's guess.

It's an aerobic sport, dammit, and base rules.

Great post