Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[Froome]

Sure, and Riccardo Riccò would have won the 2008 Giro if he had been as strong as he was in the Tour. Pogačar would also have won the 2019 Vuelta if he had his TdF 2021 legs.

There's a big difference between reaching your highest level yet and reaching your absolute peak. Vingegaard wouldn't have been as strong in the 2022 Tour, if he hadn't experienced the 2021 Tour beforehand.

Pogacar didn't had any issues in 2019. He progressed normally without health problems between 2019 and 2020.

 

[Cookster15]

While it wasn't a flat ITT, it's a curious omission that you don't mention that he also beat Pogi in the ITT of Itzulia that year (and in GC too, thanks to team tactics).

Close enough to flat to not matter. Vingagaard is a slightly built climber not an 80Kg powerhouse like his teammate Wout.

Here is the result for 2021 Itzulia. You are right he beat Pogacar by 10 seconds in the TT - which was undulating.

Itzulia Basque Country 2021 Stage 1 (ITT) results

Itzulia Basque Country 2021 Stage 1 (ITT) from Bilbao to Bilbao was won by Primož RogliÄ before Brandon McNulty and Jonas Vingegaard. Primož RogliÄ was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

The 2021 TdF TT and also the 2022 stage 20 TT are why I think he is absurd. You don't need to have a PhD in physics to understand why.

But I say Visma management learned from Sky, Brailsford and Froome. I also sense the definition of 'talent' has now been expanded to include response to doping.

 

[Froome]

And yet, those were the thoughts of Visma's sports director during Vingegaard's first professional race:

"He was the weakest rider in the field during the first days of the Ruta del Sol and got dropped even though they were riding at a really calm pace. I wasn't convinced. It was already a gamble to bring him onto the team. He had talent, but we didn't really know what we had on our hands because he had also had a history of injuries. I thought more; he'll never truly become a cyclist, than; he'll win the Tour in four years."

Source: https://politiken.dk/sport/cykling/touren/art9390688/»Det-fuckede-mig-mentalt«-Hvordan-en-test-under-coronanedlukningen-førte-til-at-Vingegaard-måtte-tage-det-endelige-opgør-med-nervesammenbrud-opkast-og-søvnløse-nætter

He also had problems with ansiety, something like that. I guess it was in Tour of Poland where he vomited before the race.

Like i said, for sure he is in a strong doping program, but without good genetics i think the program doesn't work.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Pogacar didn't had any issues in 2019. He progressed normally without health problems between 2019 and 2020.

Vingegaard wouldn't have been able to reach his 2022 level before 2022. He could have achieved better results, sure, but he couldnt't have won the Tour de France.

 

[Froome]

Vingegaard wouldn't have been able to reach his 2022 level before 2022. He could have achieved better results, sure, but he couldnt't have won the Tour de France.

We agree to disagree.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Yes, he could since he won in 2022 and 2023. When i mean the right circumstances, i mean if his progress hadn't been delayed due to health problems. Nevertheless he was second when he didn't achieved the progress he could had done in 2021.

He could have also won the 1987 Tour if he hadn‘t had the misfortune of not being born. No way Roche keeps up with him on the Joux Plane on stage 22 if he does his 2023 time.

 

[ElDesordenado]

He also had problems with ansiety, something like that. I guess it was in Tour of Poland where he vomited before the race.

Like i said, for sure he is in a strong doping program, but without good genetics i think the program doesn't work.

But does that mean you can talk about a level playing field? I don't think so. From 2019 to 2021, Vingegaard didn't just go from being back of the pack to a solid rider. He became a TdF contender. And then, in the two following years, he beat the so called once in a century rider - Michael Rasmussen called Pogacar the best rider he had ever seen; so how good does that make Vingegaard?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

He could have also won the 1987 Tour if he hadn‘t had the misfortune of not being born. No way Roche keeps up with him on the Joux Plane on stage 22 if he does his 2023 time.

If he had been caught by surprise like Bernard on the Villard-de-Lans stage and similarly had a puncture at a bad time, he could have lost then as well. Unless Van Aert and Kuss have been there to help him, if course.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

If he had been caught by surprise like Bernard on the Villard-de-Lans stage and similarly had a puncture at a bad time, he could have lost then as well. Unless Van Aert and Kuss have been there to help him, if course.

I wonder how Vingegaard would have done in the 87 km time trial. Would it be too long for him? He‘d be lucky that 80 k solo man Pogačar would be stuck in the Yugoslav cycling scene.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I wonder how Vingegaard would have done in the 87 km time trial. Would it be too long for him? He‘d be lucky that 80 k solo man Pogačar would be stuck in the Yugoslav cycling scene.

It would also be interesting to know, whether his tactic of not switching bikes would have made him beat Bernard in the Ventoux MTT or he would have been trashed like Pogi last year.

 

[ElDesordenado]

I wonder how Vingegaard would have done in the 87 km time trial. Would it be too long for him? He‘d be lucky that 80 k solo man Pogačar would be stuck in the Yugoslav cycling scene.

He would have beat no 2 by six-seven minutes. "And that result can never be stripped":

 

[Netserk]

Vingegaard wouldn't have been able to reach his 2022 level before 2022. He could have achieved better results, sure, but he couldnt't have won the Tour de France.

If he hadn't been injured before Dauphiné, hadn't waited for Rogla, and hadn't crashed on the descent of Mont-Saxonnex before Romme/Colombière, how much more of a fight do you think he could have put up against Pogi?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

If he hadn't been injured before Dauphiné, hadn't waited for Rogla, and hadn't crashed on the descent of Mont-Saxonnex before Romme/Colombière, how much more of a fight do you think he could have put up against Pogi?

He would obviously have been closer, but the level Pogačar had on Romme/Colombière was not one Vingegaard had showed at that point in his career. I don't think he would have felt comfortable trying to react to that attack, and if he had done so, he would very likely have killed himself.

 

[Netserk]

I tend to think so too, especially that he would be too hesitant to even try. But given his strength on Ventoux, I also don't think it's impossible that he would have been able to stay in his wheel.

 

[Tim Cahill]

If he was within a couple of minutes of Pogacar then perhaps JV hardpace the double Ventoux, as far as I remember it was Sky doing the tempo for Carapaz.

 

[Netserk]

If he was within a couple of minutes of Pogacar then perhaps JV hardpace the double Ventoux, as far as I remember it was Sky doing the tempo for Carapaz.

Who would do the hard pace? Selfish Wout was busy saving his own Tour.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

I tend to think so too, especially that he would be too hesitant to even try. But given his strength on Ventoux, I also don't think it's impossible that he would have been able to stay in his wheel.

It‘s not impossible but I think Pogačar‘s relative immunity to the rain and cold versus his relative weakness in the heat is a real thing and even today‘s Vingegaard would have a hard time compensating for that. But who knows, maybe Vingegaard has a hidden cold power he hasn‘t gotten to show in the previous scorching Tours.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I tend to think so too, especially that he would be too hesitant to even try. But given his strength on Ventoux, I also don't think it's impossible that he would have been able to stay in his wheel.

Don't you think Pogačar was a little bit weaker on Ventoux?

If he had tried to follow on Romme, like Carapaz did, I think Pogi would have eventually dropped him with one of his accelerations.

 

[Tim Cahill]

Who would do the hard pace? Selfish Wout was busy saving his own Tour.

I think Kuss/Van Aert could've done a job, perhaps taken over from Ineos at some point, but forgot they ended that tour with only 5 riders. No idea what kind of form Kruijswijk was in by that point but I know he DNF'd at some point.

 

[Netserk]

Don't you think Pogačar was a little bit weaker on Ventoux?

Absolutely. As I said, I also tend to think that he wouldn't be able to stay with him, just not with complete confidence.

And if he managed to hang on there, then I think he could have challenged for the victory.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Absolutely. As I said, I also tend to think that he wouldn't be able to stay with him, just not with complete confidence.

And if he managed to hang on there, then I think he could have challenged for the victory.

If the gap had been much smaller ahead of the final time trial, then Pogačar would have been forced to ride as fast as possible. and we'd know for sure whether he held back a little (well only if were able to exist in both timelines at once).

 

[Nomad]

Michael Rasmussen called Pogacar the best rider he had ever seen; so how good does that make Vingegaard?

One of the most prolific dopers in the history of the sport commenting on the current era of riders? Lol.

A career doper who used a smorgasbord of doping products; EPO, HGH, testosterone, IGF-1, Insulin, DHEA, corticosteroids & transfusions. Lol

Michael Rasmussen confesses to 12 years of doping | Cyclingnews.com

Rider comes clean and lists doping products

www.cyclingnews.com

And get a load of this; Canine synthetic blood doping (he really pushing the envelope). I think he even had his own portable blood spinner. Lol

Michael Rasmussen asked dad to donate blood, used canine blood substitute - Cycling News | Bike Reviews | road.cc

Former Danish pro cyclist Michael Rasmussen, who last week triggered Ryder Hesjedal’s admission to doping in 2003, has admitted he persuaded his dad to donate blood as part of his doping activities, and used a synthetic blood intended for dogs.With a test for EPO intriduced at the 2000 Olympics...

road.cc

I could see him & LA sitting down on a Podcast discussing their use & benefits from doping, etc, but to be commenting on current riders that's hilarious. Lol

 

[QueenStagiaire]

One of the most prolific dopers in the history of the sport commenting on the current era of riders? Lol.

A career doper who used a smorgasbord of doping products; EPO, HGH, testosterone, IGF-1, Insulin, DHEA, corticosteroids & transfusions. Lol

Michael Rasmussen confesses to 12 years of doping | Cyclingnews.com

Rider comes clean and lists doping products

www.cyclingnews.com

And get a load of this; Canine synthetic blood doping (he really pushing the envelope). I think he even had his own portable blood spinner. Lol

Michael Rasmussen asked dad to donate blood, used canine blood substitute - Cycling News | Bike Reviews | road.cc

Former Danish pro cyclist Michael Rasmussen, who last week triggered Ryder Hesjedal’s admission to doping in 2003, has admitted he persuaded his dad to donate blood as part of his doping activities, and used a synthetic blood intended for dogs.With a test for EPO intriduced at the 2000 Olympics...

road.cc

He could see him & LA sitting down on a Podcast discussing their use & benefits from doping, etc, but to be commenting on current riders that's hilarious. Lol

By that logic, almost no previous pro cyclist should ever be allowed to comment on current cycling because like 90% of them doped. Yes, Rasmussen is probably one of the worse dopers but I don‘t think this means he‘s not allowed an opinion.

 

[Nomad]

Not if the majority of this current era are clean - then he & the other career dopers have no business even giving an opinion, IMO.

Honestly, can you take Rasmussen seriously in anything he says? Canine blood doping? Lol. He & other past dopers need to just shut up & go away enjoying their ill-gotten goods invisible from the cycling world.

 

[Oldermanish]

Not if the majority of this current era are clean - then he & the other career dopers have no business even giving an opinion, IMO.

Honestly, can you take Rasmussen seriously in anything he says? Canine blood doping? Lol. He & other past dopers need to just shut up & go away enjoying their ill-gotten goods invisible from the cycling world.

We can't be naive about the sport but Rasmussen is in a world of his own. Easier to ignore that opinion, isn't it?