Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

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Cookster15

Cookster15

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Andy schleck said:
Contador never was so dominant like vingegaard in the tours that he won. Contador never faced an opponent in grand tours with the talent of pogacar. The greatness of vingegaard in underestimated. You need to be a special rider to beat someone like pogacar and dominate a rider like him. You never saw contador doing a performance like vingegaard did in this last TT of the tour 2022. In terms of performances we are probably speaking about the best climber since pantani. He is obviusly better than contador in the TTs.
Obviously contador has a better palmares than Vingegaard(but vingegaard is still young), but we are talking about who is the best/most complete rider in his peak shape, so i think vingegaard would have a better chance of doing the double giro/tour. Vingegaard also has a great team to help him.
Click to expand...
Well, we know you are a huge Vingo fan but please temper the enthusiasm until he does something outside of the TdF.

One reason he beat Pog at the Tour was that Pog aims for races before the TdF. What happened at Paris Nice? I recall your boy was dropped fair and square.

And the Dauphine doesn’t count as that is a prep race for the Tour. As of today Vingegaard’s palmares isn’t on the same zip code as Contador. Contador was a far more aggressive rider in every race he rode and didn’t rely so heavily upon his team. Many many examples. In 2009 it could be argued Contador’s team rode against him (for Lance).

This all might change in the future and I hope it does. But as of today Contador is streets ahead of Vingegaard IMO.
 
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Volderke

Volderke

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Andy schleck said:
Contador never was so dominant like vingegaard in the tours that he won. Contador never faced an opponent in grand tours with the talent of pogacar. The greatness of vingegaard in underestimated. You need to be a special rider to beat someone like pogacar and dominate a rider like him. You never saw contador doing a performance like vingegaard did in this last TT of the tour 2022 (*). In terms of performances we are probably speaking about the best climber since pantani (**). He is obviusly better than contador in the TTs (***).
Obviously contador has a better palmares than Vingegaard(but vingegaard is still young), but we are talking about who is the best/most complete rider in his peak shape, so i think vingegaard would have a better chance of doing the double giro/tour. Vingegaard also has a great team to help him.
Click to expand...

(*) He beat the allmighty Andy Schleck (second in GC that year) with 1:45, and Cancellara (who was no slouch) on a TT with one small hill.

Tour de France 2009 Stage 18 (ITT) results

Tour de France 2009 Stage 18 (ITT) from Annecy to Annecy was won by Alberto Contador before Fabian Cancellara and Mikhail Ignatiev. Alberto Contador was leading the general classification.
www.procyclingstats.com www.procyclingstats.com
Just imagine what he would have done with a parcours as in this year's Tour.

(**) And just 3 days before, he had a record-breaking VAM on Verbier. Much better than Pantani ever did.
Top-climbs-list.png


(***) The first TT was flat in that 2009 Tour. The only one beating Contador was Cancellara.

Tour de France 2009 Stage 1 (ITT) results

Tour de France 2009 Stage 1 (ITT) from Monaco to Monaco was won by Fabian Cancellara before Alberto Contador and Bradley Wiggins. Fabian Cancellara was leading the general classification.
www.procyclingstats.com www.procyclingstats.com
I doubt Vingegaard would come out 1st in a flat Tour TT, but as the tour decided that one (hilly( TT is enough for each Tour, we'll have to see in a flat TT if Vingegaard can win or even become second. If so, he is as good or better than Contador in TTs, if not, I wonder how you back up that claim that Vingegaard is 'obviously better than Contador in the TTs'

While I think Vingegaard is better (i.e. more dominant in peak form) than Contador, I also think that you're underestimating Contador quite a bit.
 
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Red Rick

Red Rick

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Volderke said:
(*) He beat the allmighty Andy Schleck (second in GC that year) with 1:45, and Cancellara (who was no slouch) on a TT with one small hill.

Tour de France 2009 Stage 18 (ITT) results

Tour de France 2009 Stage 18 (ITT) from Annecy to Annecy was won by Alberto Contador before Fabian Cancellara and Mikhail Ignatiev. Alberto Contador was leading the general classification.
www.procyclingstats.com www.procyclingstats.com
Just imagine what he would have done with a parcours as in this year's Tour.

(**) And just 3 days before, he had a record-breaking VAM on Verbier. Much better than Pantani ever did.
Top-climbs-list.png


(***) The first TT was flat in that 2009 Tour. The only one beating Contador was Cancellara.

Tour de France 2009 Stage 1 (ITT) results

Tour de France 2009 Stage 1 (ITT) from Monaco to Monaco was won by Fabian Cancellara before Alberto Contador and Bradley Wiggins. Fabian Cancellara was leading the general classification.
www.procyclingstats.com www.procyclingstats.com
I doubt Vingegaard would come out 1st in a flat Tour TT, but as the tour decided that one (hilly( TT is enough for each Tour, we'll have to see in a flat TT if Vingegaard can win or even become second. If so, he is as good or better than Contador in TTs, if not, I wonder how you back up that claim that Vingegaard is 'obviously better than Contador in the TTs'

While I think Vingegaard is better (i.e. more dominant in peak form) than Contador, I also think that you're underestimating Contador quite a bit.
Click to expand...
The Annency ITT?

Vingegaard would handily beat the specialists there.
 
Volderke

Volderke

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Red Rick said:
The Annency ITT?

Vingegaard would handily beat the specialists there.
Click to expand...
Same goes for Contador smashing the competition completely in the Combloux TT that Vingegaard won this year.

just to state the obvious:
You never saw contador doing a performance like vingegaard did in this last TT of the tour 2022 (*). --> not true. in a TT, results-wise, see the Annecy TT that was not very much in favour of Contador (contrary to the Combloux TT very much in favour of Vingegaard). Also, in terms of absolute smashing performance, see Verbier.
the best climber since pantani (**). --> not true. See Verbier. Just by the numbers.
He is obviusly better than contador in the TTs (***). --> hard to tell as we simply don't have enough reference material from Vingegaard. He is top 5 in every TT he does, but the last couple of years, TT in the Tour is usually hilly (or very hilly, see Combloux). Contador had flat TT and if it was hilly he could beat even Cancellara. I have to see if Vingegaard can beat Ganna in a flat TT or at least stay close (as Contador did with Cancellara).
 
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Red Rick

Red Rick

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Volderke said:
Same goes for Contador smashing the competition completely in the Combloux TT that Vingegaard won this year.

just to state the obvious:
You never saw contador doing a performance like vingegaard did in this last TT of the tour 2022 (*). --> not true. See Verbier.
the best climber since pantani (**). --> not true. See Verbier
He is obviusly better than contador in the TTs (***). --> hard to tell as we simply don't have enough reference material from Vingegaard. He is top 5 in every TT he does, but the last couple of years, TT in the Tour is usually hilly (or very hilly, see Combloux). Contador had flat TT and if it was hilly he could beat even Cancellara. I have to see if Vingegaard can beat Ganna in a flat TT or at least stay close (as Contador did with Cancellara).
Click to expand...
I only argue that Vingegaard would win the Annency ITT against the field he beat. The ITT specialist field wasn't very strong in the Tour. As for climbing comparisons, it's a bit of a shame Contador only went ballistic once that Tour, but IMO Marie Blanque and Verbier were comparably dominant over the competition.

It's a bit hard to compare. Contador didn't have an opponent like Pogacar, and Vingegaard wasn't restricted by a teammate like Contador was.

Contador won 6 Grand Tours in a row in his prime. Vingegaard has some way to go to match that.
 
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Unterlenkerfahrend

Unterlenkerfahrend

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That VAM graph must be one of the worst cycling graphs I've ever seen, what a random ass selection of performances (Soler 2007, Peleton 2007, lol???) with so many glaring omissions.

Anyway, I would agree that Contadors 2009 Tour was by far his most impressive one dominance wise and he was mainly held back by a very meh route and team dynamics. More impressive than Vingegaard this year? I think I'd put them on a similar level.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

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You can realistically only take relative dominance, absolute power output wise 2009 Contador just doesn't compare. There is only Verbier that has a super high W/kg estimate, and it's a 24km/h climb that had a big tailwind to boot. The rest of the climbing performances were much more in line with post BP era. Arcalis was slow, Romme/Colombiere records have been broken several times, that Ventoux time wasn't special, etc etc
 
Andy schleck

Andy schleck

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Volderke said:
Same goes for Contador smashing the competition completely in the Combloux TT that Vingegaard won this year.

just to state the obvious:
You never saw contador doing a performance like vingegaard did in this last TT of the tour 2022 (*). --> not true. in a TT, results-wise, see the Annecy TT that was not very much in favour of Contador (contrary to the Combloux TT very much in favour of Vingegaard). Also, in terms of absolute smashing performance, see Verbier.
the best climber since pantani (**). --> not true. See Verbier. Just by the numbers.
He is obviusly better than contador in the TTs (***). --> hard to tell as we simply don't have enough reference material from Vingegaard. He is top 5 in every TT he does, but the last couple of years, TT in the Tour is usually hilly (or very hilly, see Combloux). Contador had flat TT and if it was hilly he could beat even Cancellara. I have to see if Vingegaard can beat Ganna in a flat TT or at least stay close (as Contador did with Cancellara).
Click to expand...
He did 6.7 w/kg on verbier by calculations of ammattipyoraily. Vingegaard can do better than that in 20 minutes. It was not true that contador did more than 7 w/kg on verbier, and it was a unipuerto.
 
Volderke

Volderke

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Andy schleck said:
He did 6.7 w/kg on verbier by calculations of ammattipyoraily. Vingegaard can do better than that in 20 minutes. It was not true that contador did more than 7 w/kg on verbier, and it was a unipuerto.
Click to expand...
Where do you get that Vingegaard 'can do better (than that) in 20 minutes'?
First: where do you get that Contador for sure did 6.7 W/kg? AFAIK, he could do close to (or even above) 7W/kg in 20 minutes.
Next: We simply don't know what Vingegaard can do, as all we have are calculations. His best 20 minutes we have, are guestimated at 6.62 W/kg.

So we have a 'true' value by Contador of 7 W/kg, and an estimated of 6.6 W/kg of Vingegaard. Ofcourse, Vingegaard did that in a race (and in a race you follow race dynamics = not always at max.), but if you want to compare the guesstimate of Contador (6.7W/kg) on Verbier in a race with the guesstimate of Vingegaard (6.62W/kg) on Superplanche des belles filles for 20 minutes, you still end up with Contador on top. I’m not pretending Contador is better, but I simply don’t agree with all your statements that seem to underestimate Contador and try to diminish his efforts, while they were pretty high level and are still in the mix of what actual top riders can do.

ps: I'm sorry to say but even your last sentence (Verbier is Unipuerto) is stretching it.
 
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Andy schleck

Andy schleck

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Volderke said:
Where do you get that Vingegaard 'can do better (than that) in 20 minutes'?
First: where do you get that Contador for sure did 6.7 W/kg? AFAIK, he could do close to (or even above) 7W/kg in 20 minutes.
Next: We simply don't know what Vingegaard can do, as all we have are calculations. His best 20 minutes we have, are guestimated at 6.62 W/kg.

So we have a 'true' value by Contador of 7 W/kg, and an estimated of 6.6 W/kg of Vingegaard. Ofcourse, Vingegaard did that in a race (and in a race you follow race dynamics = not always at max.), but if you want to compare the guesstimate of Contador (6.7W/kg) on Verbier in a race with the guesstimate of Vingegaard (6.62W/kg) on Superplanche des belles filles for 20 minutes, you still end up with Contador on top. I’m not pretending Contador is better, but I simply don’t agree with all your statements that seem to underestimate Contador and try to diminish his efforts, while they were pretty high level and are still in the mix of what actual top riders can do.

ps: I'm sorry to say but even your last sentence (Verbier is Unipuerto) is stretching it.
Click to expand...
Vingegaard did almost 7 w/kg during 21 minutes on marie blanque after a hard stage. I didn't diminish contador efforts, i simply think vingegaard is a more complete rider than he was.

Ammattipyoraily calculations.
 
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N

Nick2413

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Volderke said:
(*) He beat the allmighty Andy Schleck (second in GC that year) with 1:45, and Cancellara (who was no slouch) on a TT with one small hill.

Tour de France 2009 Stage 18 (ITT) results

Tour de France 2009 Stage 18 (ITT) from Annecy to Annecy was won by Alberto Contador before Fabian Cancellara and Mikhail Ignatiev. Alberto Contador was leading the general classification.
www.procyclingstats.com www.procyclingstats.com
Just imagine what he would have done with a parcours as in this year's Tour.

(**) And just 3 days before, he had a record-breaking VAM on Verbier. Much better than Pantani ever did.
Top-climbs-list.png


(***) The first TT was flat in that 2009 Tour. The only one beating Contador was Cancellara.

Tour de France 2009 Stage 1 (ITT) results

Tour de France 2009 Stage 1 (ITT) from Monaco to Monaco was won by Fabian Cancellara before Alberto Contador and Bradley Wiggins. Fabian Cancellara was leading the general classification.
www.procyclingstats.com www.procyclingstats.com
I doubt Vingegaard would come out 1st in a flat Tour TT, but as the tour decided that one (hilly( TT is enough for each Tour, we'll have to see in a flat TT if Vingegaard can win or even become second. If so, he is as good or better than Contador in TTs, if not, I wonder how you back up that claim that Vingegaard is 'obviously better than Contador in the TTs'

While I think Vingegaard is better (i.e. more dominant in peak form) than Contador, I also think that you're underestimating Contador quite a bit.
Click to expand...
For the record, Vingegaard was in 1st position at the 3rd time check in 2022 stage 20 ITT which was flat/net downhill at that point and if he didn’t soft pedal the rest would’ve gained significant time in the final hilly section.
 
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Extinction

Extinction

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Andy schleck said:
Contador never was so dominant like vingegaard in the tours that he won. Contador never faced an opponent in grand tours with the talent of pogacar. The greatness of vingegaard in underestimated. You need to be a special rider to beat someone like pogacar and dominate a rider like him. You never saw contador doing a performance like vingegaard did in this last TT of the tour 2023. In terms of performances we are probably speaking about the best climber since pantani. He is obviusly better than contador in the TTs.
Obviously contador has a better palmares than Vingegaard(but vingegaard is still young), but we are talking about who is the best/most complete rider in his peak shape, so i think vingegaard would have a better chance of doing the double giro/tour. Vingegaard also has a great team to help hi
Click to expand...
The bolded is a clear advantage in Vingegaard's favor, whereas Contator came into a troubled moment, which only got more difficult once Sky rose to the top. I bet in smoother times, you give Contador Jumbo-Visma backing early on and he performs similarly. And remember Alberto beat a peak Cancellara in a Tour TT. It just confirms, however, that you can't compare eras.
 
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Escarabajo

Escarabajo

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Volderke said:
(*) He beat the allmighty Andy Schleck (second in GC that year) with 1:45, and Cancellara (who was no slouch) on a TT with one small hill.

Tour de France 2009 Stage 18 (ITT) results

Tour de France 2009 Stage 18 (ITT) from Annecy to Annecy was won by Alberto Contador before Fabian Cancellara and Mikhail Ignatiev. Alberto Contador was leading the general classification.
www.procyclingstats.com www.procyclingstats.com
Just imagine what he would have done with a parcours as in this year's Tour.

(**) And just 3 days before, he had a record-breaking VAM on Verbier. Much better than Pantani ever did.
Top-climbs-list.png


(***) The first TT was flat in that 2009 Tour. The only one beating Contador was Cancellara.

Tour de France 2009 Stage 1 (ITT) results

Tour de France 2009 Stage 1 (ITT) from Monaco to Monaco was won by Fabian Cancellara before Alberto Contador and Bradley Wiggins. Fabian Cancellara was leading the general classification.
www.procyclingstats.com www.procyclingstats.com
I doubt Vingegaard would come out 1st in a flat Tour TT, but as the tour decided that one (hilly( TT is enough for each Tour, we'll have to see in a flat TT if Vingegaard can win or even become second. If so, he is as good or better than Contador in TTs, if not, I wonder how you back up that claim that Vingegaard is 'obviously better than Contador in the TTs'

While I think Vingegaard is better (i.e. more dominant in peak form) than Contador, I also think that you're underestimating Contador quite a bit.
Click to expand...
Can't compare climbs with considerable different lengths. Additionally you have different factors like wind, racing dynamics, etc.

To me the reference is Pantani's Alpe D'Huez 1995. Easy to compare since the Alpe has been ridden so many times.
 
SHAD0W93

SHAD0W93

Aug 13, 2011
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Netserk said:
From the last intermediate to the beginning of the last climb (so after he almost crashed) he was still gaining time on Pogi.
Click to expand...
And was only 2 seconds ahead of WVA at the last intermediate and lost it and then some on the almost crash. WVA was also already going faster compared to Vinge since the first intermediate gaining back time on each point.

Jumbo went in trying to get the stage win with either and Vinge was supposed to try and stop Pog from winning. Vinge almost crashed, lost time to WVA, didn’t gain it back, and then stopped riding as hard when it became clear Pog wasn’t going to win the stage.

What time do you think Vinge could have gotten if he didn’t “give the stage away”?
 
T

theyoungest

Jan 11, 2010
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Cookster15 said:
Well, we know you are a huge Vingo fan but please temper the enthusiasm until he does something outside of the TdF.

One reason he beat Pog at the Tour was that Pog aims for races before the TdF. What happened at Paris Nice? I recall your boy was dropped fair and square.

And the Dauphine doesn’t count as that is a prep race for the Tour. As of today Vingegaard’s palmares isn’t on the same zip code as Contador. Contador was a far more aggressive rider in every race he rode and didn’t rely so heavily upon his team. Many many examples. In 2009 it could be argued Contador’s team rode against him (for Lance).

This all might change in the future and I hope it does. But as of today Contador is streets ahead of Vingegaard IMO.
Click to expand...
This kind of fact-free discussion is getting a bit boring. Yes, we know that for Pogi fans every race Vingegaard does outside of the Tour doesn't count. Except Paris-Nice of course, because there Pogi beat him. Vingegaard just wasn't very good in Paris-Nice due to circumstances, as has been explained a gazillion times now (but it's falling on deaf ears with Pogi fans, I wonder why...) In fact Jumbo concluded that the general level in Paris-Nice wasn't very high (including Pogacar's) so they pretty much ignored that race altogether.

In literally every other race Vingo did he was by far the strongest rider. I don't know how you can conclude that he only aims for the Tour. It's just not true. So let's stick to the facts.
 
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