Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Extinction]

IMHO the fair play motive of waiting overlapped with a) asserting psychological dominance and b) using the stop as an insurance policy in case JV crashes again. Doesn't make any of the aspects less real, just more nuanced.

When Vingo almost crashed, Pogi just went for it.

True, but Vingo didn't go down. I thought about this too. Yea, but had Vingo actually crashed, I doubt Pog would have waited. Although I seriously doubt Tadej would have enojoyed beating Vingo only because he crashed. But it's one thing to wait when you are 2+ minutes up on your rival and going well, another when 2+ minutes down and throwing everything but the kitchen sink at your opponent and he's still glued to your wheel.

 

[cen]

There was tactically no reason for him to bomb it down the descend after Pogi crash. WvA is too far ahead and he has Benoot and Septimuss coming back. A nice gesture for sure but also common sense.

 

[RedheadDane]

IMHO the fair play motive of waiting overlapped with a) asserting psychological dominance and b) using the stop as an insurance policy in case JV crashes again. Doesn't make any of the aspects less real, just more nuanced.

When Vingo almost crashed, Pogi just went for it.

Danish commentators actually made a pretty good point about that:
Vingegaard was behind Pogacar when it happened. It's possible Pogacar wasn't even aware Vingegaard almost crashed.

 

[Jumbot]

Please remind me what exactly happened after Andy Schleck attacked Contador and then dropped his chain in the 2010 Tour de France?! I mean, does anyone remember the outrage and that Contador had to apologize for taking advantage of Schleck's mechanical problem, even if was obvious to anyone that the only problem was Andy himself and his over-shifting. So, that cockiness and arrogance is sometimes called fair-play, and even Lance famously waited for Ulrich after his crash on stage 13 in the 2001 Tour.

Sorry, I've been just sarcastic because I remember comments just before Tour calling him cocky and arrogant because he said that he believes he can beat Pogi... Obviously I support the guy judging by my username...

Anyway, whatever the motivation, it was a smart and right thing to do

 

[Valv.Piti]

I‘m a big fan of Roglic, of Jumbo, of Vingegaard.

My big wish: if Vingegaard should win this TdF, please (please, please!) invite Michael Rasmussen to the celebrations to Paris on Sunday evening!

Michael, the Dane of Team Rabobank, actually won the TdF 2007. Now, 15 years later, it would be Vingegaard, the Dane of Jumbo. What a story. Rasmussen and Vingegaard are two of the best climbers in the history of the Tour de France.

Aint gonna happen. Rasmussen is not very loved in Denmark for multiple reason (that I don't understand). Hes close t being ignored, persona-non-grata. Only when crossing Aubisque and Tignes, his name can get mentioned. I hate is, as Im the biggest Rasmussen-fan there is.

Jonas is so very much different, and everybody in Denmark seem to love him and his family. He comes across very different to the general public, where as Rasmussen basically always was somewhat of a troublemaker which culminated in 2007.

 

[BigCoward]

Even with what I've seen this year I would still make TP marginal favourite for future GTs. He knows he can beat him in uphill sprints for time bonuses, knows he is marginally a better TT rider, all he has to do is follow and make JV work to break him (this assumes he has better team support).

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Even with what I've seen this year I would still make TP marginal favourite for future GTs. He knows he can beat him in uphill sprints for time bonuses, knows he is marginally a better TT rider, all he has to do is follow and make JV work to break him (this assumes he has better team support).

Being only marginally better in TT and only getting boni seconds is actually not great when Vingegaard just takes nearly 4 minutes in the only 2 mountain stages he attacked.

Pogi will need to improve his team + climbing on longer mountains. Vingegaard yesterday did 6.7w/kg for 12 minutes (from 4.4km on) after Sepp Kuss did the climb at 6.1 w/kg before. Pogi is physiologically incapable of that pace (so far in his career) on such an effort after such a stage.

 

[BigCoward]

Being only marginally better in TT and only getting boni seconds is actually not great when Vingegaard just takes nearly 4 minutes in the only 2 mountain stages he attacked.

Pogi will need to improve his team + climbing on longer mountains. Vingegaard yesterday did 6.7w/kg for 12 minutes (from 4.4km on) after Sepp Kuss did the climb at 6.1 w/kg before. Pogi is physiologically incapable of that pace (so far in his career) on such an effort after such a stage.

But the stages he lost time, both times it was after he had to go into the red. He doesnt have to do that next year in theory. He can just take time bonuses and whatever he gets in a TT and sit glued to JV and make him do all the work. I'm not sure JV can drop him in those circumstances.

 

[Extinction]

Being only marginally better in TT and only getting boni seconds is actually not great when Vingegaard just takes nearly 4 minutes in the only 2 mountain stages he attacked.

Pogi will need to improve his team + climbing on longer mountains. Vingegaard yesterday did 6.7w/kg for 12 minutes (from 4.4km on) after Sepp Kuss did the climb at 6.1 w/kg before. Pogi is physiologically incapable of that pace (so far in his career) on such an effort after such a stage.

Don't think so. Vingo is clearly in the form of his life, but last year and on PdBF 2020 tt Pog hit those numbers or thereabouts. I think this year Pog expended too much energy, the first week when it wasn't necessary, post stage 11 out of sheer desperation, for which he is physically too tired to hit his best climbing numbers. Next year will be different.

 

[Cookster15]

Did someone change the thread title ?

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

PDBF is a shorter climb, so you're actually missing the point @Extinction it's not about doing 6.7 w/kg or 6.1 or whatever. IT's doing that on a 40m+ climb. Pogi is incapable of that. Vingegaard seems to be able to do that.

 

[RedheadDane]

Did someone change the thread title ?

Samu's been changing the title around quite a lot.

 

[Red Rick]

Being only marginally better in TT and only getting boni seconds is actually not great when Vingegaard just takes nearly 4 minutes in the only 2 mountain stages he attacked.

Pogi will need to improve his team + climbing on longer mountains. Vingegaard yesterday did 6.7w/kg for 12 minutes (from 4.4km on) after Sepp Kuss did the climb at 6.1 w/kg before. Pogi is physiologically incapable of that pace (so far in his career) on such an effort after such a stage.

Fresh Pogacar can do that I don't doubt.

The real question is how much better Vingegaard would be in relatively fair unipuerto/MTT condidtions cause both times he got dropped he wasted a ton of energy before the final.

 

[Red Rick]

PDBF is a shorter climb, so you're actually missing the point @Extinction it's not about doing 6.7 w/kg or 6.1 or whatever. IT's doing that on a 40m+ climb. Pogi is incapable of that. Vingegaard seems to be able to do that.

Pretty sure he did that on Col de Romme for the last 12 minutes.

 

[bNator]

Being only marginally better in TT and only getting boni seconds is actually not great when Vingegaard just takes nearly 4 minutes in the only 2 mountain stages he attacked.

Vingegaard only gained time on Pogi in after the latter expended way more energy beforehand due to various reasons (covering Rogla or attacking to gain time). If next year Pogi is in a defending position in high mountains, we may to our big surprise see that Vinge is incapable of dropping Pogi just as it was the other way around this year...

 

[Netserk]

Love the (current) thread title.

I concur!

 

[Extinction]

PDBF is a shorter climb, so you're actually missing the point @Extinction it's not about doing 6.7 w/kg or 6.1 or whatever. IT's doing that on a 40m+ climb. Pogi is incapable of that. Vingegaard seems to be able to do that.

Actually on the Le Grand-Bonande alpine stage last year Pogi certainly did seem capable of that, furthermore his Strava numbers on Gavia and Stelvio apparently confirm this. I think you are missing the point about him not dosing his power/energy efforts nearly wise enough this year to perform at that level. But I'd be wary to write such numbers off with Pogacar.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Being only marginally better in TT and only getting boni seconds is actually not great when Vingegaard just takes nearly 4 minutes in the only 2 mountain stages he attacked.

Pogi will need to improve his team + climbing on longer mountains. Vingegaard yesterday did 6.7w/kg for 12 minutes (from 4.4km on) after Sepp Kuss did the climb at 6.1 w/kg before. Pogi is physiologically incapable of that pace (so far in his career) on such an effort after such a stage.

Absolutely not true. Pog did a VAM of 1845 for almost 25 minutes on Peyresourde (you will not find anything like that in Vinge's performances) and 1800+ for almost half an hour on Romme (which was only the first half of the climbing combo and in terrible weather). He's certainly capable of matching Vinge and even outclimbing him (in cold conditions). The fact is that he spent a lot of energy on Galibier and Spendelles (he had to do it on the latter to give himself a shot plus he fell down).

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

thats 25and 30 minutes, so not close to a 35-40 min climb. You are failing to understand what I said.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

thats 25and 30 minutes, so not close to a 35-40 min climb. You are failing to understand what I said.

Romme + Colombiere combo was almost an hour-long effort with just a few minutes of descent and Pog demolished the field there with average VAM on these two climbs approaching 1780 m/h. You seem unaware of his best performances. Yesterday he clearly burned a lot of matches on the penultimate climb (plus he fell down), it's like a losing team playing more offensively and losing a counter-attack goal. On Granon he cracked but a lot of credit to JV for making him work hard on Galibier.

 

[BigCoward]

thats 25and 30 minutes, so not close to a 35-40 min climb. You are failing to understand what I said.

30 minutes is not close to 35 minutes, got you.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Don't think so. Vingo is clearly in the form of his life, but last year and on PdBF 2020 tt Pog hit those numbers or thereabouts. I think this year Pog expended too much energy, the first week when it wasn't necessary, post stage 11 out of sheer desperation, for which he is physically too tired to hit his best climbing numbers. Next year will be different.

Unless they manage to put him on the backfoot again, which now all teams have witnessed is the way to beat him.

Other than that, i agree. Pogacar's been foolishly wasting energy all Tour long. A mistake he might not make again. Whether anyone can outclimb him in other conditions remains to be seen.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Aint gonna happen. Rasmussen is not very loved in Denmark for multiple reason (that I don't understand). Hes close t being ignored, persona-non-grata. Only when crossing Aubisque and Tignes, his name can get mentioned. I hate is, as Im the biggest Rasmussen-fan there is.

Jonas is so very much different, and everybody in Denmark seem to love him and his family. He comes across very different to the general public, where as Rasmussen basically always was somewhat of a troublemaker which culminated in 2007.

Rasmussen was a MUCH more interesting rider and personality than Vingegaard. (Same for Riis BTW)

Vingegaard's attack on the Granon was great but other than that.... there isn't much to like about him. Imagine being the best climber since the 90s but sucking wheels like Leipheimer.

He didn't attack a visibly tired Pogačar once in the Pyrenees. Van Aert had to ride him off his wheel.

I don't think Vinge is marketable outside of Denmark. J-V better hope Roglič is not done yet.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I don't think Vinge is marketable outside of Denmark. J-V better hope Roglič is not done yet.

Rolling Stones will need a new frontman soon, so not all hope is lost for him.

 

[CyclistAbi]

As he has beaten both Slovenians in a single blow. Can he beat Remco?