Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Divergence]

I find this kind of sensitivity from Pogacar fans a bit silly. Visma keep saying over and over again that Pogacar is the best rider in the world and they need their entire team to beat him, yet if they think they've found a weakness it's suddenly a huge insult.

And yes, they did say that Vingegaard had his best w/kg ever one one of these climbs in 2024, but we should take that with a grain of salt. Firstly because he had simply lost muscle mass after the crash in Pais Vasco, so with lower absolute power he could still maybe push a higher relative power. Secondly because they tried to project confidence, you can't blame them for that. And finally, he quite obviously wasn't at his best ever, how could he be after less than two months of preparation. That's delusional.

Visma should cont their lucky stars because they encountered first an overconfident Pog and then an injured Pog which enabled them to win the TdF. The first is not going to happen again and let us hope for no injuries. Additionally they let go of their best rider so I believe the TdF winning is not happening in the foreseeable future for the yellows.

 

[Red Rick]

Visma should cont their lucky stars because they encountered first an overconfident Pog and then an injured Pog which enabled them to win the TdF. The first is not going to happen again and let us hope for no injuries. Additionally they let go of their best rider so I believe the TdF winning is not happening in the foreseeable future for the yellows.

2 riders basically never stay at the same relative level to each other every year. Vingegaard lost last year, and had a very clear reason why he couldn't be even better.

Much is made of "haha Visma so arrogant" but I guess that "Pogacar is in jured when he loses and when he wins he's just better" is just true humility ofcourse.

 

[Divergence]

2 riders basically never stay at the same relative level to each other every year. Vingegaard lost last year, and had a very clear reason why he couldn't be even better.

Much is made of "haha Visma so arrogant" but I guess that "Pogacar is in jured when he loses and when he wins he's just better" is just true humility ofcourse.

Neither Visma nor UAE are appealing as teams to root for. I was just stating the facts.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

God, do we really need this discussion again?

It's true that they said goodbye to their best rider, but there's no reason to still be hung up on Kelderman's move to Sunweb 10 years ago.

 

[Rockestar_33]

2 riders basically never stay at the same relative level to each other every year. Vingegaard lost last year, and had a very clear reason why he couldn't be even better.

Much is made of "haha Visma so arrogant" but I guess that "Pogacar is in jured when he loses and when he wins he's just better" is just true humility ofcourse.

Pogi fans are starting to sound more and more like LeBron fans (when comparing him to Jordan) from a different sport perspective.

 

[theyoungest]

Visma should cont their lucky stars because they encountered first an overconfident Pog and then an injured Pog which enabled them to win the TdF. The first is not going to happen again and let us hope for no injuries. Additionally they let go of their best rider so I believe the TdF winning is not happening in the foreseeable future for the yellows.

They won the Tour 2023 without Roglic (and let's be fair, in the Tour 2022 he wasn't there for a large part of the race either) yet they can't win the Tour without him... make it make sense.

And yes, Pogacar probably wasn't at his best ever in the Tour 2023... but Vingegaard starting the Tour 2024 pretty much straight out of hospital is not an excuse for a slightly suboptimal performance? Gimme a break.

 

[theyoungest]

Disagree. Beating Remco in the Nice TT was proof he was likely better than in 2022 and 2023.

Lol. Vingegaard delivered a time trial performance for the ages in the Tour 2023. No effing way that Nice TT was better. Remco wasn't exactly flying on that day either.

 

[Froome]

Pogi fans are starting to sound more and more like LeBron fans (when comparing him to Jordan) from a different sport perspective.

Indeed.

 

[topcat]

1. I don't have a horse in the race
2. Anyone with any sort of moral compass would root for the underdog.
3. So we're all going to have to root for Kelderman

 

[Red Rick]

1. I don't have a horse in the race
2. Anyone with any sort of moral compass would root for the underdog.
3. So we're all going to have to root for Kelderman

That is like the universe applying negative evolutionary pressure on people with a moral compass

 

[Netserk]

2. Anyone with any sort of moral compass would root for the underdog.

Enter Barbarika's paradox.

Sometimes, there's nothing more immoral than supporting the weak.

 

[topcat]

Enter Barbarika's paradox.

Sometimes, there's nothing more immoral than supporting the weak.

Like Barbarika, I'm going to sit out the war and let both sides annihilate themselves.

 

[AmRacer]

Like Barbarika, I'm going to sit out the war and let both sides annihilate themselves.

So Roglic will win his TdF🤩

 

[James M]

but we should take that with a grain of salt.

Disagree. Beating Remco in the Nice TT was proof he was likely better than in 2022 and 2023.

Lets do this very easy cause it is. Go to 38:30 38:45, listen very carefully if ppl still struggle with this, its that easy. You also have Grischa, Jorgenson etc all saying the same thing, if ppl wanne neglect what riders say and take it with a grain of salt thats really weird I dont need to tell you that, but guess what you still have the numbers, and they accros the board comfirms Vingegaard has never been better regardless of what anyone tell themselves, just like this part cause its also funny Steff Crass, who had the same injury as Jonas, at the same time but even suffered worse complication and just like Jonas was better than ever this Tour so its very common in fact and not uncommon, so theres that too. I dont know what people like to tell themselves or why but this is facts, you also have Jonas this Tour stage 20 did his 4 best(3 of em was all this tour..) climbing performance of all time so his recovery was also indeed awesome, cause he did it on stage 20.. again just another fact, it is infact indisputable and nothing to disagree on. And if anything honestly kudos to him, no point to undermine his performances, its really strange.

Just do add and lets not confuse this with ppl saying he cant be better pls, I dont think anyone said that, or hope he dont but lets not run around along the way making up our own facts, thats weird.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iolscfq2K84

 

[James M]

What separated Pogacar from Vingegaard used to be his explosiveness, not his endurance. He closed the gap last year, in fact probably surpassed what Vingegaard has ever been able to do, but I'd like to see a well-prepared Vingegaard take him on. It will almost certainly be a closer race.

Next. I agree, if he improves more than others will, lets see first. Im with you, I certaintly would like that aswell cause its not even remotely close and lets hope he can, but lets see, cause that part is hope, not facts.

That being said it wasnt about that man, we talked about last year and what was his biggest issue towards this year, betwen explosiveness from the article, or w/kg, and its very obvious he needs to adress that issue more, as its a far bigges issue for him. Explosiveness is a issue vs Pogacar indeed but being able to ride higher w/kg on 30-40min climbs is a bigger one, cause Pogacar is currently riding at a w/kg noone is even close to sustain, and thats while their doing their best numbers across the board their ever been able too, and thats a far bigger issue betwen the two. That was all we talked about, which you jumped yourself into and projected all kind of stuff, nothing else..

This shouldnt be upsetting, it literally is the reality.

 

[Cookster15]

Lets do this very easy cause it is. Go to 38:30 38:45, listen very carefully if ppl still struggle with this, its that easy. You also have Grischa, Jorgenson etc all saying the same thing, if ppl wanne neglect what riders say and take it with a grain of salt thats really weird I dont need to tell you that, but guess what you still have the numbers, and they accros the board comfirms Vingegaard has never been better regardless of what anyone tell themselves, just like this part cause its also funny Steff Crass, who had the same injury as Jonas, at the same time but even suffered worse complication and just like Jonas was better than ever this Tour so its very common in fact and not uncommon, so theres that too. I dont know what people like to tell themselves or why but this is facts, you also have Jonas this Tour stage 20 did his 4 best(3 of em was all this tour..) climbing performance of all time so his recovery was also indeed awesome, cause he did it on stage 20.. again just another fact, it is infact indisputable and nothing to disagree on. And if anything honestly kudos to him, no point to undermine his performances, its really strange.

Just do add and lets not confuse this with ppl saying he cant be better pls, I dont think anyone said that, or hope he dont but lets not run around along the way making up our own facts, thats weird.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iolscfq2K84

Thanks, I hadn't seen this and it is both revealing and confirms what I thought.

38:30 - Vingegaard:

I did the performance of my life today

Yes, that means better than anything seen in 2022 or 2023. Better than Col du Granon. Better than Hautacam. Even better than Combloux. Despite his April crash.

Visma genuinely believed that Vingegaard was a better than he has ever been and the data confirmed it. It is also consistent with the rhetoric from the team ever since his crash: Vingegaard will not ride the Tour unless he thinks he can win it.

After PdB Vingo also said there was a chance Pogacar might crack so he had to keep trying - and he did. Kudos to him, a gutsy tour from Vingegaard after all the adversity he had overcome and up against maybe the best rider ever putting in his best ever performances.

But we still need the 2025 Tour to play out. I think Visma and Vingegaard will look at their challenge logically just as they took a logical approach to dealing with his losses in the Tour. They know he must be capable of better with a better injury free preparation.

 

[Cookster15]

This thread has turned into rubbish [[deleted content]]

Not sure what you are reading because this isn't what the discussion has been about.

 

[Cookster15]

if Pog can even replicate his 24 version which while likely isnt a given either from a factual standpoint.

True. I am interested to see if not doing the Giro beforehand helps or hinders Pogacar. Logically he should be better with fresher legs but that is not a given. He did seem to win that Giro without pushing himself except for a few decisive moments and clearly restrained his efforts on some stages. As others have said, rather than become fatigued during the Giro he actually rode himself into optimal form for the Tour.

 

[Peyroteo94]

3 days to go. I'm excited to see his 2025 level and I'm intrigued to see what he will do in Foia.

 

[Froome]

3 days to go. I'm excited to see his 2025 level and I'm intrigued to see what he will do in Foia.

He will not do anything in foia, because he will attack on Pomba.

 

[Lorzenz08]

I personally think of it this way.
Last year out of the 6:17 minutes advance.
Pogi took 3:28 on 3 stages. Which are usually the favorites of Vingo (long HC finish climbs).
0:39 secs, 1:08 secs, 1:42 secs.

In an hypothetical scenario, in my opinion, Pogi can be 35-50 secs better this year than last year on each of these 3 stages. Lets average 40 secs. So compared to 2024 Vingo that would give 1:20, 1:48, 2:20.

In my opinion, Vingo can be 1min faster on each of these climbs this year than last year. Bringing the gap to 0:20, 48 secs, 1:20. So about 2 minutes.
If Pogi doesnt progress, Vingo is 29 secs behind. On these 3 stages.

Of course this is all hypothetical, and this is not to be taken at face value since race dynamic change whether they get no gap or not etc. also this year TdF profile is not the same. But this is just to mean that it is reasonable to think Vingo can at least get his engine to be competitive IMO.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Wishful thinking on Visma's part. Vingegaard will never be as explosive as Pogacar. Impossible.

That's not what he said.

And he doesn't to be as explosive as Pogi to beat him in the TdF.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Vingegaard proposes 2 potential co-leaders from his team as possible Tour tactics against Pogacar

Jonas Vingegaard starts his season on Wednesday in Portugal in the Tour of the Algarve. We will see the Dane in action again for the first time since August 18, 2024. "I am confident that I can do eve...

www.idlprocycling.com

 

[Froome]

Vingegaard proposes 2 potential co-leaders from his team as possible Tour tactics against Pogacar

Jonas Vingegaard starts his season on Wednesday in Portugal in the Tour of the Algarve. We will see the Dane in action again for the first time since August 18, 2024. "I am confident that I can do eve...

www.idlprocycling.com

"In cycling terms, the Tour de France was the highlight, with a stage win and second place in the GC. "I was good on the tour but not at my best level. I am confident that I can do a lot better. Particularly in terms of preparation, the three months in the run-up to the Tour. It is challenging to say the difference, but with seven or eight weeks of training, you cannot be at your best on the tour."

Nevertheless, just lost 6 minutes.

 

[Tanakka]

Vingegaard proposes 2 potential co-leaders from his team as possible Tour tactics against Pogacar

Jonas Vingegaard starts his season on Wednesday in Portugal in the Tour of the Algarve. We will see the Dane in action again for the first time since August 18, 2024. "I am confident that I can do eve...

www.idlprocycling.com

Yeah, whatev...

Matteo and Simon can also be co-leaders. Of course, it depends on the tactics; we still have to figure that out. We plan to win the Tour, but I can't tell you exactly how we will pull it off yet."

No matter what, I don't see Pogi replying to Matteo's, let alone Simon's, attacks the way he did in 2022 with Roglic.

It was already considered a big mistake in 2022, but Pogi was 3 years younger and Rogla - arguably - still "could" have been seen as a pretty serious threat.
Cooking himself to follow Simon Yates would be just crazy: their pace isn't even supposed to be close; plus Yates isn't getting any younger either (at least Jorgenson is born in 1999, so you never know 100%).