Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[pelotonIQ]

I think you've misunderstood what Rick posted, but that's up to him to explain

It's ridiculous to argue that last year's Tour somehow fell in Vingegaard's lap thanks to his awesome team, and it didn't have anything to do with him being better than Pogacar in any way. Sure, having a great team helped, but in the end, if Vingegaard didn't have the legs it wouldn't have benefited him one bit. Didn't Pogacar himself demonstrate that when he 'stole' the Tour from Roglic, who had an awesome team but just wasn't good enough when it mattered?

It was very clear Roglic bonked (pale face) which is different from being cooked not having the legs and is a fueling issue rather than a fatigue/recovery issue and not being ''good enough'' issue.

 

[Cookster15]

I don't think he meant so soon.

He wasn't the only one. Nobody was talking about Vingegaard before that Tour.

 

[Cookster15]

Vingegaard attacks in every race more than one time.....

Nothing like Pog. And certainly nothing like what Alberto did.

 

[Boehmand]

I miss Alberto Contador. He makes Pog and Vingo seem boring.

When Vingegaard does multiple repeated attacks at every opportunity as Conti became known for he will be more popular. But I see a strong rider who rides conservatively behind his team then lands a knockout punch with the resulting fresher legs. That Pog can win all year round with likely only 90% shape tells me he is the more talented of these two.

I agree Pog helped his own demise - overconfidence. Hopefully he has learned from that.

I see a change in Vingegaard from last year to this. He seems more confident, he rides with more panache, he dares more, especially at Dauphine, where he didn't even look over his shoulder every 300 metres when out in front.

I still find his lacking ability in the Ardennes and other climby classics odd, but I think his newfound confidence will go some way in fixing that... when you start rubbing shoulders with the big leadout men, to help Laporte win a sprint, you are no longer a shy excuse for yourself politely waiting in line

Pogs strategy for the Tour is the big question, his ruined run in and him running out of gas last year, SHOULD make him choose a more conservative approach... but it is Pogacar

 

[pelotonIQ]

Vingegaard didn't take it easy, he worked as a Dom for Roglic, including a massive time loss waiting for Roglic when he crashed.

Also Pogacar being weaker in week 3 because of expending energy early, is not really the argument you think it to be

Roglic pulled out in the first week, whatever work Vingegaard did was nothing in comparison of the work Pogacar did and he still lost to him.

Your theory of Vingegaard having a better recovery is weak.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Nothing like Pog. And certainly nothing like what Alberto did.

Vingegaard attacks in a calculated manner, whereas Pogacar's attacks are sometimes just plain hairbrained.

 

[Boehmand]

Roglic pulled out in the first week, whatever work Vingegaard did was nothing in comparison of the work Pogacar did and he still lost to him.

Your theory of Vingegaard having a better recovery is weak.

As explained previously in this thread, it's not "my theory" - it's Jumbo Visma's sports science department that arrived at that conclusion.

They said it, not I, they specifically pointed to it as an areas where they believed they could hurt Pogacar, they said it publically ahead of last years Tour.

That you refuse to believe it because you are a fan of Pogacar is fine by me, but I would like to direct your attention to the fact that Jumbo Visma's predictions came true.

 

[pelotonIQ]

As explained previously in this thread, it's not "my theory" - it's Jumbo Visma's sports science department that arrived at that conclusion.

They said it, not I, they specifically pointed to it as an areas where they believed they could hurt Pogacar, they said it publically ahead of last years Tour.

That you refuse to believe it because you are a fan of Pogacar is fine by me, but I would like to direct your attention to the fact that Jumbo Visma's predictions came true.

Gotcha, it's not your theory yet you like to throw it around when you're trying to make your points.

 

[Boehmand]

Gotcha, it's not your theory yet you like to throw it around when trying to make your points.

Dude, this is a thread about Vingegaard, and what I am "throwing around" is what his employer has said about his abilities as a GT rider.

Why on earth would that not be relevant?

Maybe you need to take a chill pill, and go to the Pogacar thread to talk about your boy, instead of getting offended by someone simply relaying factual information about Vingegaard, in the Vingegaard thread

 

[Boehmand]

Vingegaard attacks in a calculated manner, whereas Pogacar's attacks are sometimes just plain hairbrained.

Well in fairnes, Pogacars attacks are often effective.

The interesting thing in this years Tour will be to see, if the hubris that comes with almost always being successful has abated, because of what happened last year, or if he still rides the same way.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Dude, this is a thread about Vingegaard, and what I am "throwing around" is what his employer has said about his abilities as a GT rider.

Why on earth would that not be relevant?

Maybe you need to take a chill pill, and go to the Pogacar thread to talk about your boy, instead of getting offended by someone simply relaying factual information about Vingegaard, in the Vingegaard thread

Dont worry, you're too nice to able to offend someone.

You have a tendency to make statements and then evade the questions that follow but anyways, have a nice day.

 

[Boehmand]

Dont worry, you're too nice to able to offend someone.

You have a tendency to make statements and then evade the questions that follow.

What questions have I evaded?

Feel free to restate them.

 

[Cookster15]

Didn't Pogacar himself demonstrate that when he 'stole' the Tour from Roglic, who had an awesome team but just wasn't good enough when it mattered?

What I don’t get about this quote is the claim Vingegaard has better recovery. Pog ‘stole’ that tour on stage 20 without huge team support that Roglic enjoyed.

Unless Jumbo have Pog’s blood lactate and other physiological data then their sport’s scientists are hypothesising about Pog’s 2021 weakness or even the reason fir this supposed weakness - reminds me of Dave Brailsford’s hubris?

2020 TdF Pog had way less protection than Roglic and then still did pulled out that astonishing stage 20 TT. If there is any superiority in Vingo in the 3rd week recovery then it would be negligible. The only possible weakness I see in Pog is altitude >2000m. But again due to his broken wrist we may be robbed of a fair fight this year which would be a big shame.

 

[Extinction]

What I don’t get about this quote is the claim Vingegaard has better recovery. Pog ‘stole’ that tour on stage 20 without huge team support that Roglic enjoyed.

Unless Jumbo have Pog’s blood lactate and other physiological data then their sport’s scientists are hypothesising about Pog’s 2021 weakness or even the reason fir this supposed weakness - reminds me of Dave Brailsford’s hubris?

2020 TdF Pog had way less protection than Roglic and then still did pulled out that astonishing stage 20 TT. If there is any superiority in Vingo in the 3rd week recovery then it would be negligible. The only possible weakness I see in Pog is altitude >2000m. But again due to his broken wrist we may be robbed of a fair fight this year which would be a big shame.

Jumbo saw that Pog can be dropped in the mountains in 2020 and 2021, that they didn't beat him in those editions is irrelevent. They didn't have to have his lacate data to know that in Vingeggard (whose lactate data they have) they have a rider who feasably could go better than Pog and they were right.

If Vingeggard wins the Tour again this time, I don't think Pog's broken wrist will have been the main cause, but the Dane's superiority.

 

[Cookster15]

Jumbo saw that Pog can be dropped in the mountains in 2020 and 2021, that they didn't beat him in those editions is irrelevent. They didn't have to have his lavate data to know that in Vingeggard (whose lactate data they have) they have a rider who feasably could go better than Pog and they were right.

If Vingeggard wins the Tour again this time, I don't think Pog's broken wrist will have been the main cause, but the Dane's superiority.

Pogacar was dropped once for a 15 second time loss in 2020 - by Roglic at altitude (Lotz, 2400 metres). That climb reappears in 2023 so will be interesting to see how Pog copes. Every other climb in 2020, long or short he was equal or better than the rest.

In 2021 Pog won by 5 minutes. Ventoux was brief and most conjecture I read was in YouTube.

Jumbo were right in 2022 because Pog fell for the trap on stage 11. Not because of their sports scientists hypothesis.

Your reasoning is sound but neither of us can be certain. As I’ve said IMO Vingegaard is the favourite for this Tour but only because of Pog’s LBL crash and resulting loss of conditioning.

 

[Extinction]

Pogacar was dropped once for a 15 second time loss in 2020 - by Roglic at altitude (Lotz, 2400 metres). That climb reappears in 2023 so will be interesting to see how Pog copes. Every other climb in 2020, long or short he was equal or better than the rest.

In 2021 Pog won by 5 minutes. Ventoux was brief and most conjecture I read was in YouTube.

Jumbo were right in 2022 because Pog fell for the trap on stage 11. Not because of their sports scientists hypothesis.

Your reasoning is sound but neither of us can be certain. As I’ve said IMO Vingegaard is the favourite for this Tour but only because of Pog’s LBL crash and resulting loss of conditioning.

Right, my point was that they saw he could be dropped, not by much, but dropped. And with the data they had on Vingeggard they said he's got the numbers to defeat him and they were right. Once.

Naturally I don't have a crystal ball, but it seems those numbers are back. Now, Pog also was the unwitting catalyst of his own demise (in part) last year. So doubtless he won't make the same mistakes this time, for which, bar incident, we'll hopefully get to see who between them is stronger.

 

[Lequack]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDKAU8SMC-Y

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I get a kick out of this idea that Jumbo went out and got (or if you're in the clinic built in a lab) Vingegaard after Roglic's loss in 2020. Vingegaard was already in the team since 2019 and Roglic was already talking him up as a possible successor, though I don't think he meant so soon.

Yeah Primoz was right twice (Pogi and Vingegaard) but thought he had a free years of dominance. But these kids man…

 

[Mlarsen]

Video of Jonas training on Pike 🙂👍
https://m.feltet.dk/video/eurosport/8846

 

[Rob5091]

Is family Vingegaard following Jonas around as per normal?

 

[RedheadDane]

Is family Vingegaard following Jonas around as per normal?

Not quite as much. It was revealed after the Tour last year, that Frida didn't take all the constant changes very well.

 

[theyoungest]

Video of Jonas training on Pike 🙂👍
https://m.feltet.dk/video/eurosport/8846

He looks to be going faster than Wout. Belgian media in a panic.

 

[Netserk]

I hope a good result today will make him reconsider aiming for Liège. Sure, today is a much fresher effort and more suited to climbers, but the last ~15 km are similar.

 

[Rob5091]

Not quite as much. It was revealed after the Tour last year, that Frida didn't take all the constant changes very well.

So he'll be on phone as soon as a stage is over?

 

[Red Rick]

Final km reminded me of Longwy last year. He can do a decent sprint, but a 1km 6% uphill sprint he's actually surprisingly *** at considering his normal sprint is okay for a climber.