Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[pelotonIQ]

Pogi lost the Tour on Granon and wouldn't have been able to close that gap afterwards even if he had had a better team. However if he hadn't bonked that day, it obviously could have been a different race, but Vingegaard still looked like he couldn't be cracked, but we'll obviously never know.

Vingegaard was surrounded by his team and didn't have to work one bit. 1-2 attacking Pogacar with Roglic. With a better team Pogacar wouldn't be in an isolated position and get attacked like that and lose energy chasing.

I dont know how we ended up talking about TdF2022 for so long. All I said in my first post in this thread is that this years tour UAE has a better team than last year. Jumbo visma doesn't have the luxury of having two leaders which was decisive in stage 11 when Vingegaard and Roglic double attacked Pogacar. This tour Vingegaard is solo leader and Pogacar is the better time trialist and the better bonus second sprinter. I cannot see how Vingegaard will win if Pogacar has good support from his team unlike last tour.

Listen, mcnulty did all the necessary job for pogacar on Peyragudes stage, but pogacar couldn't drop Vingegaard. On hautacam's stage, uae did the necessary job until middle of spandelles but again, pogacar couldn't drop Vingegaard. Then, on hautacam pogacar was spending the same or less energy of Vingegaard, because he was in the wheels of kuss, van aert and vingegaard. Jumbo hardened the race, so pogacar could have followed vingegaard after his attack or counterattack, but simply he didn't have the legs. Majka wouldn't made any difference because his leader couldn't drop Vingegaard. If majka was there, he would do the same that jumbo did on hautacam, make the race hard, but it wouldn't make difference, because in all 21 stages of the tour, pogacar could never drop Vingegaard.

The most strong rider won, just like in 2021 and 2020 pogacar was the most stronger rider.

What necessary job? The Peyragudes stage has 4 mountain tops, do you really think 1 domestique is enough to set a high tempo tiring the legs of Vingegaard that for the most part didn't have to work one bit thus being way fresher than the opposition.

Due to unfortunate circumstances Pogacar was left with a weakened team early in the race and was forced to work, close gaps which he otherwise shouldn't have to meanwhile Vingegaard had his team do the dirty work for him to keep him fresh.

I'll give you a thought experiment, pretend Pogacar and Vingegaard switched teams for the 2022 TdF do you really still think Vingegaard would have won if had to go through what Pogacar had to go through racing with minimal support in key stages? That will tell you if the strongest rider won or the strongest team won.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

What necessary job? The Peyragudes stage has 4 mountain tops, do you really think 1 domestique is enough to set a high tempo tiring the legs of Vingegaard that for the most part didn't have to work one bit thus being way fresher than the opposition.

Due to unfortunate circumstances Pogacar was left with a weakened team early in the race and was forced to work, close gaps which he otherwise shouldn't have to meanwhile Vingegaard had his team do the dirty work for him to keep him fresh.

I'll give you a thought experiment, pretend Pogacar and Vingegaard switched teams for the 2022 TdF do you really still think Vingegaard would have won if had to go through what Pogacar had to go through racing with minimal support in key stages? That will tell you if the stronger rider won or the stronger team won.

I agree regarding Granon stage (where JV overwhelmed Pog, who himself also likely did a nutrition mistake). However, on Peyragudes stage McNulty set a ridiculous tempo, he was a one-man team that day (only the two mutants held his wheel). But he exhausted Pog himself, who couldn't do anything at the end. On Hautacam stage Pogacar threw a kitchen sink at Vingegaard on Spendelles (his accelerations were so impressive) but still he couldn't drop Vinge. One could argue that his fall on the descent affected his Hautacam climbing but he still crushed the rest of GC guys so it was a solid performance anyway. Pog also tried on Alpe d' Huez (he had the possibility of reaching around 38'40'' - 38'30'' there but didn't want to drag Vinge) and also fired a short bazooka in Mende (2070 m/h of VAM) and still no effect. To sum up, I think Vinge was almost impossible to drop last year (except potential cold conditions that would favour Pog but were absent last year) and without Granon collapse it would've been a closer race but still rather difficult for Pog to win (the race dynamics wouldn've been different though, no doubts, so it would be more open).

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Vingegaard was surrounded by his team and didn't have to work one bit. 1-2 attacking Pogacar with Roglic. With a better team Pogacar wouldn't be in an isolated position and get attacked like that and lose energy chasing.

I dont know how we ended up talking about TdF2022 for so long. All I said in my first post in this thread is that this years tour UAE has a better team than last year. Jumbo visma doesn't have the luxury of having two leaders which was decisive in stage 11 when Vingegaard and Roglic double attacked Pogacar. This tour Vingegaard is solo leader and Pogacar is the better time trialist and the better bonus second sprinter. I cannot see how Vingegaard will win if Pogacar has good support from his team unlike last tour.

We talked about the 2022 Tour so much, because you argued Vingegaard wouldn't be able to beat Pogačar, despite the fact that he was the strongest of the two last year. That doesn't mean he'll win again this year, but it definitely doesn't suggest it'll be a walk in the park for Pogačar either, no matter how strong his team turnes out to be.

 

[Cookster15]

Listen, mcnulty did all the necessary job for pogacar on Peyragudes stage, but pogacar couldn't drop Vingegaard. On hautacam's stage, uae did the necessary job until middle of spandelles but again, pogacar couldn't drop Vingegaard. Then, on hautacam pogacar was spending the same or less energy of Vingegaard, because he was in the wheels of kuss, van aert and vingegaard. Jumbo hardened the race, so pogacar could have followed vingegaard after his attack or counterattack, but simply he didn't have the legs. Majka wouldn't made any difference because his leader couldn't drop Vingegaard. If majka was there, he would do the same that jumbo did on hautacam, make the race hard, but it wouldn't make difference, because in all 21 stages of the tour, pogacar could never drop Vingegaard.

The most strong rider won, just like in 2021 and 2020 pogacar was the most stronger rider.

So you admit Pogacar was stronger in 2021 after Ventoux.

I think peletonIQ makes sense. I am one of those who say last year's TdF outcome was heavily influenced by what happened on Granon and the relative strengths of their teams.

How many mountains after Granon did Pog try to crack Vingegaard to claw back lost time? He started counter attacking the following day to AdH, it wasn't wasn't just Peyragudes. Absolutely he coulnd't crack Vingegaard but those attacks used up his energy and he didn't have the luxury on every other stage and moment of being protected and kept out of the wind by his team, Mcnulty's fleeting help on the Hautacam stage 18 didn't come close to what WvA and the combined might of Jumbo did for Vingegaard for three weeks. Another example was Laporte's pull on the stage to ADH (Croix de Fer, below link).

Time trialing is also heavily influenced by freshness.

I also say if the roles were reversed, that Pog would cope better than Vingegaard. Due to Pogacar's LBL crash and wrist injury I still think Vingegaard is favorite but Pog is a big threat and JV themselves are saying this.

Pidcock claims sensational L'Alpe d'Huez victory on stage 12 of Tour de France

Pogacar unable to shake yellow jersey Vingegaard

www.cyclingnews.com

Behind, Jumbo-Visma did the same. Christophe Laporte had led all the way up

 

[Cookster15]

You're acting like Vingegaard had 7 guys to help him. If you've watched the Tour in its entirety, as apparently you did, you'd know that he had only one climbing domestique left: Sepp Kuss. His team wasn't that much stronger uphill than UAE's. They just rode more smartly.

Also, if not having a lot of help counts for Pogacar, why doesn't it count for Vingegaard on Peyragudes?

If you watched the Tour in its entirety would would have noted the support for Vingegaard from other JV riders - even Laporte eg Col de la Croix de Fer on the ADH stage. And team support doesn't just count on mountain stages. Ask Cadel Evans.

Vingegaard had huge support on every stage and the cumulative effect of this was obvious at Hautacam and then in the TT. Pog still did very well in that TT considering all the energy he expended in the preceding two weeks since Granon. This year Pog's wrist injury means Vingo is still the favorite. But there are factors in 2022 that if not repeated even the chances for Pogacar.

 

[theyoungest]

If you watched the Tour in its entirety would would have noted the support for Vingegaard from other JV riders - even Laporte eg Col de la Croix de Fer on the ADH stage. And team support doesn't just count on mountain stages. Ask Cadel Evans.

Vingegaard had huge support on every stage and the cumulative effect of this was obvious at Hautacam and then in the TT. Pog still did very well in that TT considering all the energy he expended in the preceding two weeks since Granon. This year Pog's wrist injury means Vingo is still the favorite. But there are factors in 2022 that if not repeated even the chances for Pogacar.

Pogacar wasn't on his own either... far from it. Mikkel Bjerg had some amazing days, as did McNulty, and Majka. Somehow for his staunchest fans Pogacar has such an unbeatable aura that if he's beaten every factor counts, except that Vingegaard was maybe just a little better.

 

[Cookster15]

Pogacar wasn't on his own either... far from it. Mikkel Bjerg had some amazing days, as did McNulty, and Majka. Somehow for his staunchest fans Pogacar has such an unbeatable aura that if he's beaten every factor counts, except that Vingegaard was maybe just a little better.

Not unbeatable, just pointing out some gaps in facts, logic and reason. But no way were UAE as strong for Pog as JV were for Vingegaard - on flat and intermediate stages too.

But much of this discussion includes differences of opinion and our personal biases. As I said, too bad about Pog’s injury interruption we may be robbed. But he isn’t out of contention. Far from it.

 

[Netserk]

Another example was Laporte's pull on the stage to ADH (Croix de Fer, below link).

Pidcock claims sensational L'Alpe d'Huez victory on stage 12 of Tour de France

Pogacar unable to shake yellow jersey Vingegaard

www.cyclingnews.com

Behind, Jumbo-Visma did the same. Christophe Laporte had led all the way up

Laporte did not pull over the top of Croix de Fer. He pulled until Saint-Sorlin-d'Arves. Then Van Hooydonck took over (Image).

 

[Boehmand]

What are you trying to argue? Hautacam was Van Aert and Vingegaard vs Pogacar

Van Aert?

All he did was pace with Vingegaard on his wheel, while Pogacar was on Vingegaards wheel - Pogacar just couldn't hack the tempo.

If he had not already been cooked, he would have just stayed on Vingegaards wheel, and Van Aert would not have made a lick of difference.

The only reason Van Aert was able to pace Vingegaard to crack Pogacar, was because Vingegaard was better on the day, so he could stay on the wheel while Pogacar could not - otherwise none of it would have happened.

 

[Red Rick]

Generally, if I attack you 15 times but I cant put 10 cm into you, and you attack twice and gain more than a minute both times, I would be inclined to admit you were the stronger rider

 

[pelotonIQ]

Generally, if I attack you 15 times but O cant put 10 cm into you, and you attack twice and gain more than a minute both times, I would be inclined to admit you were the stronger rider

Sure, only if it's a 1 vs 1 race without teams, both with fresh legs or else other factors will be in play. Only then can I objectively say that I'm the better rider but in the context of the tour you have to also consider fatigue levels between the riders. Except for stage 1, they dont start the stages with equal level of fatigue and in this particular tour Vingegaard was fresher, specially in the third week due to having a functioning team doing every piece of work for him unlike UAE that was struck with bad luck (covid).

If you haven't followed the thread I initially wrote that barring any crashes, covid or double leader tactics, I see no realistic way for Vingegaard to win this years tour. I only brought up the 2022 (which took over the discussion) tour to illustrate how Vingegaard GC win came with a lot of things going his way in regards to UAE covid situation and the utilization of the double leader tactic which Jumbo wont have at their disposal in this years tour.

 

[theyoungest]

Sure, only if it's a 1 vs 1 race without teams, both with fresh legs or else other factors will be in play. Only then can I objectively say that I'm the better rider but in the context of the tour you have to also consider fatigue levels between the riders. Except for stage 1, they dont start the stages with equal level of fatigue and in this particular tour Vingegaard was fresher, specially in the third week due to having a functioning team doing every piece of work for him unlike UAE that was struck with bad luck (covid).

If you haven't followed the thread I initially wrote that barring any crashes, covid or double leader tactics, I see no realistic way for Vingegaard to win this years tour. I only brought up the 2022 (which took over the discussion) tour to illustrate how Vingegaard GC win came with a lot of things going his way in regards to UAE covid situation and the utilization of the double leader tactic which Jumbo wont have at their disposal in this years tour.

Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe Vingegaard handles fatigue better, and maybe that's the reason he won this Tour? That maybe he has a better recovery than Pogacar? So the fact that you say Pogi would have won the Tour if he was less fatigued is moot, because that was exactly the point of the tactic that Jumbo used. It's like you're saying a good recovery isn't a valid characteristic to have.

 

[Boehmand]

Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe Vingegaard handles fatigue better, and maybe that's the reason he won this Tour? That maybe he has a better recovery than Pogacar? So the fact that you say Pogi would have won the Tour if he was less fatigued is moot, because that was exactly the point of the tactic that Jumbo used. It's like you're saying a good recovery isn't a valid characteristic to have.

Jumbo even alluded to pre-Tour last year, that they had seen some weaknesses in Pogacar in week 3 of 2021, that they thought they could exploit because of Vingegaard's ability for recovery late in a GT.

Most people just wrote it off as wishful thinking from a team with no chance to beat Pogacar.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe Vingegaard handles fatigue better, and maybe that's the reason he won this Tour? That maybe he has a better recovery than Pogacar? So the fact that you say Pogi would have won the Tour if he was less fatigued is moot, because that was exactly the point of the tactic that Jumbo used. It's like you're saying a good recovery isn't a valid characteristic to have.

Jumbo wouldn't have been able to use that tactic to full effect if it wasnt for UAE losing domestiques early on to covid. This tour no Roglic though.

Saying Vingegaard recovers better is a big reach from you since he never had to work like Pogacar worked to begin with, if the roles were reversed and Vingegaard still came up on top then i'd agree.

 

[Cookster15]

Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe Vingegaard handles fatigue better, and maybe that's the reason he won this Tour? That maybe he has a better recovery than Pogacar? So the fact that you say Pogi would have won the Tour if he was less fatigued is moot, because that was exactly the point of the tactic that Jumbo used. It's like you're saying a good recovery isn't a valid characteristic to have.

Well that never crossed my mind having followed last year's Tour.

How can you say this knowing the firepower Jumbo had to protect Vingegaard since the Tour began? To paraphrase Red Rick, generally, if I attack 15 times and spend more time in the wind, closing gaps etc, then yes, it wears you down by the 3rd week (result: Hautacam and TT). I don't think anyone here can argue that Vingegaard would have copped better had the roles been reversed. We already knew Pogacar had excellent third week recovery from 2020.

 

[pelotonIQ]

Jumbo even alluded to pre-Tour last year, that they had seen some weaknesses in Pogacar in week 3 of 2021, that they thought they could exploit because of Vingegaard's ability for recovery late in a GT.

Most people just wrote it off as wishful thinking from a team with no chance to beat Pogacar.

Are you missing the fact that Pogacar invested his energy and went on solo missions early on in TdF2021 whilst Vingegaard didn't?

Despite Pogacar doing more work than Vingegaard he still beat him and took stages 17 & 18.

 

[theyoungest]

Well that never crossed my mind having followed last year's Tour.

How can you say this knowing the firepower Jumbo had to protect Vingegaard since the Tour began? To paraphrase Red Rick, generally, if I attack 15 times and spend more time in the wind, closing gaps etc, then yes, it wears you down by the 3rd week (result: Hautacam and TT). I don't think anyone here can argue that Vingegaard would have copped better had the roles been reversed. We already knew Pogacar had excellent third week recovery from 2020.

I think you've misunderstood what Rick posted, but that's up to him to explain

It's ridiculous to argue that last year's Tour somehow fell in Vingegaard's lap thanks to his awesome team, and it didn't have anything to do with him being better than Pogacar in any way. Sure, having a great team helped, but in the end, if Vingegaard didn't have the legs it wouldn't have benefited him one bit. Didn't Pogacar himself demonstrate that when he 'stole' the Tour from Roglic, who had an awesome team but just wasn't good enough when it mattered?

 

[Boehmand]

Are you missing the fact that Pogacar invested his energy and went on solo missions early on in TdF2021 whilst Vingegaard didn't?

Despite Pogacar doing more work than Vingegaard he still beat him and took stages 17 & 18.

I'm pretty sure I watched the same Tour you did, so no I'm not missing anything.

That Pogacar added to his own problem, by expending a lot of energy early in the Tour - 2 years in a row - is not really helping your case that he is the better GT rider

Either way, this debate is pretty much pointless, as they are clearly very evenly matched overall, both with elements where they are better than the other, that they both try to exploit when they can.

What people oppose, is your assertion that Pogacar is clearly better, when everyone can see they are exitingly evenly matched.

How boring would the Tour be, if one of them wasn't there?

 

[Cookster15]

I think you've misunderstood what Rick posted, but that's up to him to explain

It's ridiculous to argue that last year's Tour somehow fell in Vingegaard's lap thanks to his awesome team, and it didn't have anything to do with him being better than Pogacar in any way. Sure, having a great team helped, but in the end, if Vingegaard didn't have the legs it wouldn't have benefited him one bit. Didn't Pogacar himself demonstrate that when he 'stole' the Tour from Roglic, who had an awesome team but just wasn't good enough when it mattered?

I never said the Tour fell in Vingegaard's lap. Let me be clear that I agree Vingegaard was strong but he was also fresher thanks to his team - you cannot argue otherwise.

They are completely different types of riders but the help provided by Jumbo to Vingegaard from day one in last years TdF reminded me of the help Cadel received from BMC in 2011. Cadel was in super shape but he was also fresher thanks to his team protecting him on non mountain stages for three weeks. Its the little things which add up every day in a grand tour we don't see in time sheets or on the television - including on flat and intermediate stages.

I recall Pog attempting to attack many times after his losses on Granon. I don't know if it was 15 times as RR wrote, but certainty he tried on multiple occasions - beginning with the Alpe on stage 12. These attacks accumulate fatigue more than responding does. But I don't think you are being objective in admitting how a strong team around you can save energy in a Grand tour. It seemed clear to me that Pog ran out of bikkies on Hautacam - he had been fighting since stage 11. It is clear to me the Jumbo schemed how to beat Pogacar after their shock in 2020. Pog won that tour without much team help. Well JV, found a new talent and upped the ante on the same team strategy.

Bottom line is the circumstances of 2022 won't be easy to repeat. Vingegaard is still a clear favorite in my mind but only thanks to Pog's LBL crash and subsequent wrist injury.

 

[pelotonIQ]

I'm pretty sure I watched the same Tour you did, so no I'm not missing anything.

That Pogacar added to his own problem, by expending a lot of energy early in the Tour - 2 years in a row - is not really helping your case that he is the better GT rider

You brought up TdF2021 saying Vingegaard recovers better in the third week.

Care to explain how that happened when Pogacar invested his energy early attacking whilst Vingegaard took it easy and yet somehow still lost stages to Pogacar in the third week?
If you're going to be dishonest atleast try to make it less obvious.

 

[Hugh Januss]

It is clear to me the Jumbo schemed how to beat Pogacar after their shock in 2020. Pog won that tour without much team help. Well JV, found a new talent and upped the ante on the same team strategy.

I get a kick out of this idea that Jumbo went out and got (or if you're in the clinic built in a lab) Vingegaard after Roglic's loss in 2020. Vingegaard was already in the team since 2019 and Roglic was already talking him up as a possible successor, though I don't think he meant so soon.

 

[Boehmand]

I never said the Tour fell in Vingegaard's lap. Let me be clear that I agree Vingegaard was strong but he was also fresher thanks to his team - you cannot argue otherwise.

They are completely different types of riders but the help provided by Jumbo to Vingegaard from day one in last years TdF reminded me of the help Cadel received from BMC in 2011. Cadel was in super shape but he was also fresher thanks to his team protecting him on non mountain stages for three weeks. Its the little things which add up every day in a grand tour we don't see in time sheets or on the television - including on flat and intermediate stages.

I recall Pog attempting to attack many times after his losses on Granon. I don't know if it was 15 times as RR wrote, but certainty he tried on multiple occasions - beginning with the Alpe on stage 12. These attacks accumulate fatigue more than responding does. But I don't think you are being objective in admitting how a strong team around you can save energy in a Grand tour. It seemed clear to me that Pog ran out of bikkies on Hautacam - he had been fighting since stage 11. It is clear to me the Jumbo schemed how to beat Pogacar after their shock in 2020. Pog won that tour without much team help. Well JV, found a new talent and upped the ante on the same team strategy.

Bottom line is the circumstances of 2022 won't be easy to repeat. Vingegaard is still a clear favorite in my mind but only thanks to Pog's LBL crash and subsequent wrist injury.

Yes you can also argue, that Pogacar killed his own chances, by contesting pointless secondary sprints, and doing solo attacks for very little gain, in the first 10 days. His team, however good, could not have dragged him up Granon or Hautacam or ridden the last ITT for him, when he was cooked.

I don't think they are that different rider types, and the notion Pogacar received no protection from his team is just plain wrong, it was only when they were down to 5-6 guys that happened, and most times Majka was still there.

Yes a team helps you reel in attacks, if they can ride faster than the attacker. - That Pogacar was getting reeled in by Doms, should tell you something about why he lost the race.

I only think Vingegaard is the clear favourite, if Pogacar is not in top condition. The route still favours Pogacar, because of the many short explosive finishes, because of the TT being after a rest day, because of only 1 final mountain being above 1700 meters (and that even ends in a descent), and because of the relatively easy week 3.

 

[Cookster15]

I'm pretty sure I watched the same Tour you did, so no I'm not missing anything.

That Pogacar added to his own problem, by expending a lot of energy early in the Tour - 2 years in a row - is not really helping your case that he is the better GT rider

Either way, this debate is pretty much pointless, as they are clearly very evenly matched overall, both with elements where they are better than the other, that they both try to exploit when they can.

What people oppose, is your assertion that Pogacar is clearly better, when everyone can see they are exitingly evenly matched.

How boring would the Tour be, if one of them wasn't there?

I miss Alberto Contador. He makes Pog and Vingo seem boring.

When Vingegaard does multiple repeated attacks at every opportunity as Conti became known for he will be more popular. But I see a strong rider who rides conservatively behind his team then lands a knockout punch with the resulting fresher legs. That Pog can win all year round with likely only 90% shape tells me he is the more talented of these two.

I agree Pog helped his own demise - overconfidence. Hopefully he has learned from that.

 

[Boehmand]

You brought up TdF2021 saying Vingegaard recovers better in the third week.

Care to explain how that happened when Pogacar invested his energy early attacking whilst Vingegaard took it easy and yet somehow still lost stages to Pogacar in the third week?
If you're going to be dishonest atleast try to make it less obvious.

Vingegaard didn't take it easy, he worked as a Dom for Roglic, including a massive time loss waiting for Roglic when he crashed.

Also Pogacar being weaker in week 3 because of expending energy early, is not really the argument you think it to be

 

[Andy schleck]

I miss Alberto Contador. He makes Pog and Vingo seem boring.

When Vingegaard does multiple repeated attacks at every opportunity as Conti became known for he will be more popular. But I see a strong rider who rides conservatively behind his team then lands a knockout punch with the resulting fresher legs. That Pog can win all year round with likely only 90% shape tells me he is the more talented of these two.

I agree Pog helped his own demise - overconfidence. Hopefully he has learned from that.

Vingegaard attacks in every race more than one time.....