Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[KZD]

Nobody is talking that last year was the same?
Doctor of Jumbo prepared Jonas for the second part on Tour , there He will reach his peak/ form

No, last year was not the same.

Last year the first mountain stage that could create gaps between the two was stage 7 (they finished st anyway), this year we already had 3 stages where there was actually gaps between the two and there will be no Roglič in the second week.

As for that talk that Vingegård is going to reach the peak in the second part of the Tour, well why would it be any different for Pogačar especially coming from an injury?

This doesn't mean that he can't beat Pogačar of course but circumstances don't favour him as much as last year.

 

[Peyroteo94]

No, look here:

Tadej Pogačar Drops Vingegaard on Puy de Dôme | Tour de France 2023 Stage 9 - Lanterne Rouge

Tadej Pogačar is in the best shape of his career once again dropped Jonas Vingegaard, this time on a climb that suited the Dane perfectly. The UAE Team Emirates superstar is flying and the battle for the yellow jersey will be very exciting in the coming two weeks.

lanternerouge.com

Pogacar had never been above the red line, before yesterday. It was, by some distance, his best performance ever.

Stage 5 was in line with his performances the previous years, but yesterday was way above

Top 10 Climbers for the 2023 Season - Lanterne Rouge

The 2022 cycling season was full of top level climbing performances with many records broken and new climbers bursting onto the scene. The list of Top 10 climbing performances of 2022 was dominated by Evenepoel and Vingegaard but will the same riders dominate the long ascents in WorldTour races...

lanternerouge.com

Some people come with these numbers thinking they are trustworthy. We don't have a clue how many watts Pogacar is doing and we don't know his real weight either. So this is just pure speculation.

 

[Andy schleck]

No, look here:

Tadej Pogačar Drops Vingegaard on Puy de Dôme | Tour de France 2023 Stage 9 - Lanterne Rouge

Tadej Pogačar is in the best shape of his career once again dropped Jonas Vingegaard, this time on a climb that suited the Dane perfectly. The UAE Team Emirates superstar is flying and the battle for the yellow jersey will be very exciting in the coming two weeks.

lanternerouge.com

Pogacar had never been above the red line, before yesterday. It was, by some distance, his best performance ever.

Stage 5 was in line with his performances the previous years, but yesterday was way above

Top 10 Climbers for the 2023 Season - Lanterne Rouge

The 2022 cycling season was full of top level climbing performances with many records broken and new climbers bursting onto the scene. The list of Top 10 climbing performances of 2022 was dominated by Evenepoel and Vingegaard but will the same riders dominate the long ascents in WorldTour races...

lanternerouge.com

I trust a bit more in ammattipyoraily data.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1678115559970357248

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1678115559970357248


There's less 0.3 w/kg in ammattipyoraily result.

 

[Andy schleck]

Some people come with these numbers thinking they are trustworthy. We don't have a clue how many watts Pogacar is doing and we don't know his real weight either. So this is just pure speculation.

They use a standard weight.

 

[Lorzenz08]

I trust a bit more in ammattipyoraily data.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1678115559970357248

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1678115559970357248


There's less 0.3 w/kg in ammattipyoraily result.

Some have found 7w/kg. Someone said what about ammatti, and he replied " I can't tell you why Ammatti has a different value. I have no idea. All I can say is that I am 1000% confident my value is correct. "

https://twitter.com/x/status/1678114661223342080

View: https://twitter.com/NaichacaCycling/status/1678114661223342080

 

[Andy schleck]

Some have found 7w/kg. Someone said what about ammatti, and he replied " I can't tell you why Ammatti has a different value. I have no idea. All I can say is that I am 1000% confident my value is correct. "

https://twitter.com/x/status/1678114661223342080

View: https://twitter.com/NaichacaCycling/status/1678114661223342080

Naichaca overvalue a lot. He also overvalued what vingegaard did on col marie blanque.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676650170522501121

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1676650170522501121

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676712962915192833

View: https://twitter.com/NaichacaCycling/status/1676712962915192833


Ammattipyoraily gave a result of 7 w/kg.
Naichaca gave a result of 7.25 w/kg.

 

[EddyMazzoleni]

For as much as these guys work is interesting, one must remember that they do not have access to precise data about a lot of the paramaters needed for the calculation. If they wanted to present a more scientific work they would have to at least include a interval of confidence (a single number as no scientific value) in which the real value is estimated to be inside with a given (68% or 95% generally) probability, taking in to account how precise the estimate on any of the parameters is. Also Naichaca (whose ego is apparently as big as Vinge VO2 max) uses standard power for a 60 kg rider, so Pogi being heavier partially, but not totally, justifies the lower estimates made by Ammaty

 

[Andy schleck]

If anything it looks like Pog rode at those numbers he can do and was fairly consistent. Stayed within his limits.

Vinge just had a super-day on stage 5. Maybe he can have it again. Maybe he had to pay for that effort, the rest of week.

Pog is really consistent, he did also similar numbers in the last 4 kms of tourmalet.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1677741102420353026

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1677741102420353026


I also believe Vingegaard had to pay for the efforts he did on stage 5 and 6.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Vingegaard is still putting out his best numbers ever (corrected or not) on those types of climbs. Pog is just stronger atm. We'll have to wait and see how it is on the true long climbs as Col de Loze etc

 

[Blobs]

Naichaca overvalue a lot. He also overvalued what vingegaard did on col marie blanque.

How do you know?

 

[BillyTwinner]

Naichaca overvalue a lot. He also overvalued what vingegaard did on col marie blanque.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676650170522501121

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1676650170522501121

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676712962915192833

View: https://twitter.com/NaichacaCycling/status/1676712962915192833


Ammattipyoraily gave a result of 7 w/kg.
Naichaca gave a result of 7.25 w/kg.

Andy Schleck why do you say JONAS IS ARROGANT?
)

 

[bNator]

They use a standard weight.

what does standard weight mean? Where do they get that data? Is there any weighing before the event?

 

[bNator]

I really don't trust these calcualtions at all. I've actually done an algorithm to calculate power and compared calculations with measurements. Done it on quite a wide range of samples, couple of tens of rides. I used completely theoretical approach (which means that I calculated all the factors - drag, wind resistance, etc.) and what I can say is that average calculated power is within 5% of average measured powerm, depending on the ride specifics. Rule of thumb is the steeper the climb, the better the results.

The problem are coefficients - wind resistance coefficient in particular. These coefficients mean that for the duration of the calculation, effect of air resistance, rolling resistance etc. remain unchanged. Change your position on the bike slightly and you get completely different results. Use different gearing and your transmission resistance will change. Use different air pressure... well, you get the idea. And I even used coefficient correction based on my past rides and measured power which those guys can't do cause they have no measured power data...

 

[Blobs]

Naichaca overvalue a lot. He also overvalued what vingegaard did on col marie blanque.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676650170522501121

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1676650170522501121

https://twitter.com/x/status/1676712962915192833

View: https://twitter.com/NaichacaCycling/status/1676712962915192833


Ammattipyoraily gave a result of 7 w/kg.
Naichaca gave a result of 7.25 w/kg.

It doesn't matter. The numbers are in relation to Naichagas own previous estimations. Pogacar is putting out better numbers than previous years, which is also evident since he can now drop uncrashed Vingegaard, which he hasn't been able to in previous years.

 

[Andy schleck]

How do you know?

You can find than answer in the topic "power data estimates for the climbing stages". Naichaca is very sensacionalist.

Pogacar is in the same shape of the last 2/3 years. He didn't do nothing that he hadn't done in the past. Pogacar doing 6.7/6.8 w/kg in 14/15 min is normal for him.

 

[Blobs]

You can find than answer in the topic "power data estimates for the climbing stages". Naichaca is very sensacionalist.

Pogacar is in the same shape of the last 2/3 years. He didn't do nothing that he hadn't done in the past. Pogacar doing 6.7/6.8 w/kg in 14/15 min is normal for him.

But like I said in the above post, these numbers are compared to his own estimations from previous years. Or did he only start overestimating them this year?

 

[Andy schleck]

But like I said in the above post, these numbers are compared to his own estimations from previous years. Or did he only start overestimating them this year?

Look, naichaca thinks that remco is a better climber than pogacar. He is delusional.
His numbers are not credible. Sometimes he overestimate more or less, but he always overestimate.

 

[Andy schleck]

Andy Schleck why do you say JONAS IS ARROGANT?
)

When i said that?! I actually like him.

 

[BillyTwinner]

When i said that?! I actually like him.

THE REAL ANDY SCHLECK SAID THAT I WAS JUST KIDDING BRO!

 

[Andy schleck]

THE REAL ANDY SCHLECK SAID THAT I WAS JUST KIDDING BRO!

I'm not even a big fan of schleck. It's just a name that came to my mind when i signed up on this forum.

 

[bNator]

I'm not even a big fan of schleck. It's just a name that came to my mind when i signed up on this forum.

You should have gone with Tadej Pogačar😂

 

[Andy schleck]

You should have gone with Tadej Pogačar😂

I don't dislike pogacar. It would be also a good choice, even if i prefer vingegaard or van der poel, my two favourite riders.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I don't dislike pogacar. It would be also a good choice, even if i prefer vingegaard or van der poel, my two favourite riders.

You should have called yourself Mathieu ving der Gaard instead (although some German probably already uses that on Twitter).

 

[Andy schleck]

You should have called yourself Mathieu ving der Gaard instead (although some German probably already uses that on Twitter).

Great idea. Unfortunately is not possible to change the name.....

 

[nightowl]

You always have to take watts estimates with a grain of salt, but from the climbing performances in the first week it actually looks like Pogacar is going better when there’s more fatigue in the legs.

On the last ~15 minutes of stage 9, Pogacar did a very similar (probably slightly better) performance to stage 5, while Vingegaard was significantly worse. The main difference being that Puy de Dôme is a 35min climb over-all and Marie Blanque is a 20min in climb.

On stage 6, Vingagaard’s Tourmalet effort was right in line with what he did on Marie Blanque, with Pogacar again slightly better. Then on Cautarets both riders understandably saw a bit of a drop-off because of the very hard stage they had had, but Vingegaard again had a much bigger drop in level compared to Pogacar.

So overall it would seem Pogacar did have a bit of an off day on stage 5, but otherwise has been much better at maintaining his numbers with more fatigue in the legs, even though that is contrary to the general assumption of their respective abilities.