Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[CyclistAbi]

I don't believe anybody in current peloton is able to win all 3 GT's in a single season. Compete yes, win no. If you can win two GT's in one season you already pushed the limit to extremes and beyond.

 

[pman]

Having the biggest winning margin in Itzulia since 2002 doesn't count as domination?

Also I'm sure Vingegaard would have won P-N without Pogi there, because Gaudu would not have been able to crack him like Pogi did.

I'll give you the first point- he did well in the Basque win (though again, I think the field wasn't anywhere near a Giro field). I disagree on the second point.

 

[pman]

I don't believe anybody in current peloton is able to win all 3 GT's in a single season. Compete yes, win no. If you can win two GT's in one season you already pushed the limit to extremes and beyond.

Part of the problem with even doing the Giro- Tour double is how guys train for the Tour. The amount of time someone like Jonas must spend in a training camp in the mountains during the month of May basically makes the double a non-starter.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I'll give you the first point- he did well in the Basque win (though again, I think the field wasn't anywhere near a Giro field). I disagree on the second point.

Gaudu finished second in P-N, because he rode his own pace on La Loge des Gardes and didn't attempt to follow the two mutants. If Pogačar hadn't been there, then Vingegaard's first attack would have decided the stage.

 

[pman]

Gaudu finished second in P-N, because he rode his own pace on La Loge des Gardes and didn't attempt to follow the two mutants. If Pogačar hadn't been there, then Vingegaard's first attack would have decided the stage.

Maybe or maybe Vingegaard wasn't where he needed to be to win a race like Paris-Nice. Regardless, I understand the idea that fans of a rider would love for them to do the double. I am a Roglic fan, loved the idea for a split moment of him doing the double this year. It's just not how racing is done now. I think the most likely outcome of Jonas doing the double is someone like Pog, Remco or even TGH beating him in the Tour when he shows up with less than ideal form. What makes Jonas such a special rider is his ability to hold a massive peak in July. I just don't see him as some transformational talent that can win the Giro undercooked and then show up to the Tour and win that one overcooked from the Giro. Maybe some of you want him to be that, maybe he'll become that but I just don't see him as that rider right now based off what we currently know about him and how he approaches the Tour plus his other results. Is he a great Grand Tour right? Yes, he looks to be. Is he going to be tremendously difficult to beat in the Tour going forward? You bet. Is he the next Eddy Merckx? I don't see it but that's what I think it would take to do the double based on how these guys train for the Tour currently.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Part of the problem with even doing the Giro- Tour double is how guys train for the Tour. The amount of time someone like Jonas must spend in a training camp in the mountains during the month of May basically makes the double a non-starter.

It's extreme. Still for the best of the best i feel that on special and rare occasions a double is achievable. The triple in my opinion is more of a fantasy then something we can expect anytime soon.

 

[tobydawq]

Pff, this thread title.... I know Roglic has a silly one but isn't Jonas too good for this?

 

[Red Rick]

He's a rider that peaks in June/July. He holds the peak for that period. He has not shown an ability to win major races outside of that window ....

This is the sort of content that causes Netserk to go full vigilante in the Pogacar thread which then makes people very upset.

 

[Netserk]

This is the sort of content that causes Netserk to go full vigilante in the Pogacar thread which then makes people very upset.

I truly have to step the *** up.

 

[pman]

This is the sort of content that causes Netserk to go full vigilante in the Pogacar thread which then makes people very upset.

Hey, not trying to upset anyone. I think Vingegaard is a great champion- one of the best riders in the sport during an era of exceptionally talented riders. I just think part of what makes him so great is his ability and commitment to achieving and keeping one major peak for the most important month in our sport.

 

[pman]

It's extreme. Still for the best of the best i feel that on special and rare occasions a double is achievable. The triple in my opinion is more of a fantasy then something we can expect anytime soon.

The question is- if the Giro moves up a week or two, does the double become easier or more challenging? Less recovery time but less time you have to hold your form. Essentially, come in undercooked, have a good third week and then recover for the Tour. Basically have the kind of Giro Roglic had this year which is why I was amused by the potential of him doing the double.

 

[Gigs_98]

Quintana 2016. Below peak Tour, flying at Vuelta. Valverde in 2012 and 2014 too. Menchov in 2008 was better in Tour than Giro. Wiggins and Armstrong did the Giro in 2009.

The thing with Giro/Tour is the guys who can do it don't try because of opportunity cost.

I guess those are some examples but I don't feel they contradict what I claimed. Menchov got 4th in a Tour with a pretty weak field. Armstrong and Wiggins were alright but not incredible and did either of them even try to ride that Giro for gc?

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Yeah, I guess that's where we disagree. I don't think winning O Gran Camiño and the Tour of Basque Country by just over a minute is dominating non Pog races. Plus, even if Pog sat out Paris-Nice, Jonas would have lost that as well.

You obviously don't watch racing.

His Itzulia level this year was scary good, dominating one of the top wt stage races of the year, winning half the stages with unstoppable attacks.

In Paris Nice he would win without pogacar, he wasted top much energy and went into the red trying to match pogacar repeated attacks. Without that he would easily have the measure of guadu

His dominance in the Dauphine was again absurd.

Yes he is a Tour specialist, but the ability of vingegard to win races easily in spring and then win tdf is underrated for some reason

If he wanted to he could find a close-to-top shape for both Giro and Tour. If anyone can do doubl, it's him. But he won't try soon , because he said it's his goal to have the most TDF wins, to get the 6

 

[pman]

You obviously don't watch racing.

His Itzulia level this year was scary good, dominating one of the top wt stage races of the year, winning half the stages with unstoppable attacks.

In Paris Nice he would win without pogacar, he wasted top much energy and went into the red trying to match pogacar repeated attacks. Without that he would easily have the measure of guadu

His dominance in the Dauphine was again absurd.

Yes he is a Tour specialist, but the ability of vingegard to win races easily in spring and then win tdf is underrated for some reason

If he wanted to he could find a close-to-top shape for both Giro and Tour. If anyone can do doubl, it's him. But he won't try soon , because he said it's his goal to have the most TDF wins, to get the 6

I watch most World Tour races but in all honestly, I missed the Basque race this year. I think I was busy that week. I just remember reading about it and not being super impressed but sometimes reading about a race and watching it are two different things. Maybe if I watched that one race, I'd agree with you but I doubt it.

I did watch Paris-Nice and thought Vingegaard showed up under cooked and it showed. It is possible for people to watch the same race and disagree about it. I think the point we fundamentally disagree on is that you think because of how he's won the Tour the last two years, he's so dominant, that he'll win a race like the Giro for fun as long as Pog isn't there and then turn around and win the Tour with a Giro interrupted training schedule . I fundamentally disagree- I think one of the reasons he's so dominant in the Tour is because it's his one major peak whereas Pog splits his attention. With that said, Vingegaard improved so much from 2022 to 2023, who knows. If he improves as much next year as he did this year, maybe he could do the double. I am just going on what I currently know the rider to be.

 

[tobydawq]

I watch most World Tour races but in all honestly, I missed the Basque race this year. I think I was busy that week. I just remember reading about it and not being super impressed but sometimes reading about a race and watching it are two different things. Maybe if I watched that one race, I'd agree with you but I doubt it.

I did watch Paris-Nice and thought Vingegaard showed up under cooked and it showed. It is possible for people to watch the same race and disagree about it. I think the point we fundamentally disagree on is that you think because of how he's won the Tour the last two years, he's so dominant, that he'll win a race like the Giro for fun as long as Pog isn't there and then turn around and win the Tour with a Giro interrupted training schedule . I fundamentally disagree- I think one of the reasons he's so dominant in the Tour is because it's his one major peak whereas Pog splits his attention. With that said, Vingegaard improved so much from 2022 to 2023, who knows. If he improves as much next year as he did this year, maybe he could do the double. I am just going on what I currently know the rider to be.

Maybe you should not talk about Itzulia if you didn't watch it or didn't hear about the watts he was pushing there...

 

[theyoungest]

I watch most World Tour races but in all honestly, I missed the Basque race this year. I think I was busy that week. I just remember reading about it and not being super impressed but sometimes reading about a race and watching it are two different things. Maybe if I watched that one race, I'd agree with you but I doubt it.

I did watch Paris-Nice and thought Vingegaard showed up under cooked and it showed. It is possible for people to watch the same race and disagree about it. I think the point we fundamentally disagree on is that you think because of how he's won the Tour the last two years, he's so dominant, that he'll win a race like the Giro for fun as long as Pog isn't there and then turn around and win the Tour with a Giro interrupted training schedule . I fundamentally disagree- I think one of the reasons he's so dominant in the Tour is because it's his one major peak whereas Pog splits his attention. With that said, Vingegaard improved so much from 2022 to 2023, who knows. If he improves as much next year as he did this year, maybe he could do the double. I am just going on what I currently know the rider to be.

If you take just Paris-Nice as your example that he can't perform when he's not on absolute top form, as a lot of people do by the way, you need to take into account that his team has said that he wasn't good there because of a family situation. He flew back to his family when he was already in the team hotel, to return just in time for the race start.

He was absolutely dominant in Pais Vasco. As dominant as anything we've seen this year. If you say the competition there wasn't at Giro level, well maybe, but not far below it. Just an example of his domincance in the final stage, where he attacked at 30 k to go and soloed to the finish:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_gYWLV3oDk

 

[The Clogger]

But he won't try soon , because he said it's his goal to have the most TDF wins, to get the 6

Vingegaard never said he wanted to win TDF 6 times and take the record. The source behind this quote is claiming they have it from "Danish TV" but I've looked it up and it isn't true.

 

[CyclistAbi]

All in all i am rather happy that Jonas and partially Remco are doing the double this year. Pogi will i guess do it eventually. So we should get our answers that are not based on speculations. On who of the top GC guys in the current peloton is capable of winning or finishing high in a GT double. So far only one of them has a rather good track record when it comes to actual racing.

 

[KZD]

This Vuelta we will already get an idea if Vingegård can win two Grand Tours in the same season. I believe he can but Giro-Tour will always be more difficult than Tour-Vuelta especially if the Giro is moved forward in the calendar like it was proposed.

However winning all three Grand Tours in the same season is impossible.

 

[Peyroteo94]

He had no chance of doing Giro-Tour if Pogacar is only focusing on winning the Tour

 

[Andy schleck]

He had no chance of doing Giro-Tour if Pogacar is only focusing on winning the Tour

Why not? Vingegaard can always win the tour with 1 min of advantage instead of 4 or 7 minutes 😂

 

[pman]

I am glad I came into this thread because it has made my views of Vingegaard more nuanced. The next time he does a stage race like the Basque one, I'll try and watch it. It's much better for the sport if you guys here are correct and he's just a star year round as opposed to a Tour de France phenome who goes easy the rest of the year. I am still skeptical about the Giro-Tour double but who knows.

 

[Cookster15]

Would be good to see him go to the Giro. But Pog might be salivating if he attempts the double. Vingo is good but he is no Contador who couldn’t do it.

 

[Bolder]

Would be good to see him go to the Giro. But Pog might be salivating if he attempts the double. Vingo is good but he is no Contador who couldn’t do it.

Question for the experts: Froome 2018 was the best Giro-Tour double attempt since? TD put in an amazing effort too. The 2 best GC riders both going for the hardest double... That was a great GT year imo.

 

[Andy schleck]

Would be good to see him go to the Giro. But Pog might be salivating if he attempts the double. Vingo is good but he is no Contador who couldn’t do it.

Contador never was so dominant like vingegaard in the tours that he won. Contador never faced an opponent in grand tours with the talent of pogacar. The greatness of vingegaard in underestimated. You need to be a special rider to beat someone like pogacar and dominate a rider like him. You never saw contador doing a performance like vingegaard did in this last TT of the tour 2023. In terms of performances we are probably speaking about the best climber since pantani. He is obviusly better than contador in the TTs.
Obviously contador has a better palmares than Vingegaard(but vingegaard is still young), but we are talking about who is the best/most complete rider in his peak shape, so i think vingegaard would have a better chance of doing the double giro/tour. Vingegaard also has a great team to help him.