Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[CyclistAbi]

Well hello, night owl. Thanks for reminding me it's late.

Good night.

 

[Andy schleck]

The most stronger rider, should always win in cycling, that's my point of view. So it's a shame that vingegaard cannot win this race, because he will give the victory to kuss. Neverthless, kuss is a nice guy.....

 

[Nick2413]

Vingegaard gave away his big gift and now he can hopefully ride the rest of his career in peace not having the expectation to do it again. While neither him or Roglic probably preferred to gift the race, he has way more to gain and less to lose from it and it will help his popularity. From now on he can be a stone cold killer and I’m looking forward to watching it.

 

[saunaking]

Vingegaard gave away his big gift and now he can hopefully ride the rest of his career in peace not having the expectation to do it again. While neither him or Roglic probably preferred to gift the race, he has way more to gain and less to lose from it and it will help his popularity. From now on he can be a stone cold killer and I’m looking forward to watching it.

Yep. He has to tell the team that Primoz isn't to race with him anymore.
Has to lay down the law a la Lance
Although now that I think about it there was the year Contador took him out from the inside

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

My god, reading this and the Roglic thread, this forum is going down fast.

 

[Martinstranger]

Yeah he got gapped in the last big sprint to the line, but that’s not his forte. They were trying to set up a Roglic counter so they stayed put but it didn’t materialize. Unless you think Finn Fisher-Black is significantly better than him on 5km @ 9%.

Fischer-Black, Wout Poels and Michael Storer all went away and didn't get catched. It seemed to me, that neither Kuss or Roglic had eminent legs that day - and then Kuss lost some extra seconds in the sprint. Sorry - don't buy the theory that they could have followed Vingegaard - because then they would have followed either Fishcer-Black, Poels or Storer

 

[bNator]

Yes, some people do get a sense of fullfilment by helping someone else win. That you don't feel like that, or you lack the empathy to imagine some people have a different mindset than yourself, doesn't mean those people don't exist.

(I was one of the strongest advocates of Jumbo fighting it out on the road between themselves, by the way. But what you're posting here is obviously a reaction from a disgruntled Roglic fan. I love Roglic. I wanted him to win this Vuelta. That just shows how much your posts rubbed me the wrong way.)


Knee deep in what exactly? They're on the verge of taking the entire (THE ENTIRE) GC podium, and you're saying he's in deep manure. Now step back and think about that for a minute...

You dancing around the idea of me somehow being a lesser person for believing professional sportsmen want to win will not change the simple truth: Jonas’s words do not reflect his actions.

And if you don’t see where they are knee deep in, maybe it’s you who should step back and think about why it was their GM who had to step in and tell them to stop their shenanigans and ride like a team because it makes them look bad.

 

[Boehmand]

Why not?
He just pace Kuss, and he stays in red. Roglic was more than a minute down on Kuss, he can't gain that in 2km, especially if he helps.
He said he prefer Kuss wins, why he didn't helped then?
Roglic didn't went after him, but Jonas did, twice. He didn't give him an inch. Why did he went then? Roglic wasn't a main threat to red jersey, but he was.
The answer is obvious. Not to all of us though...

In the moment, there is no way to know if Kuss has cracked too much to stay within the margin.

As said they both should have waited, but when one didn't it was a given the other would also not.

 

[Boehmand]

I’m not desparately trying to do anything and I never said it was just his decision. Grischa is knee-deep in this s*** and is the most responsible.

It didn’t make sense tactically. Once you have first 3 spots in the podium by a rather handsome margin, maintaining status quo is what makes sense tactically and not risking to blow the race and possibly put your teammates in trouble. Tactically, you want to keep hard tempo, discouraging any attacks and bring the group back home.

But Vingegaard was racing Kuss and Roglic and his late damage control once he saw there’s some controversy around his actions won’t simply change that.

I won’t be going into a discussion if he had the right to attack or not, because it would be a long one. I would just like to establish he was in fact attacking them which makes his statements afterwards ridiculous. Which is why we started this exchange…

It's been a standard tactic - forever - that when you want to put pressure on your competitors, you have a lieutenant attack early to force the other team to work, especially when you have run out of doms to set a hard tempo.

What nobody could have known was, that in this instance "the other team" just flat out refused to react.

To first say that Niermann is "knee deep in this", and then in the very same post claim that Vingegaard was attacking Roglic and Kuss, is just illogical - why on earth would a DS orchestrate an attack on his own riders?

 

[Peyroteo94]

The most stronger rider, should always win in cycling, that's my point of view. So it's a shame that vingegaard cannot win this race, because he will the victory to kuss. Neverthless, kuss is a nice guy.....

But we can't say he was stronger than Roglic. Maybe he was but I think Roglic was held back on Tourmalet and specially in the stage he lost 1.10 minutes to Vingegaard (he would never lose more than 20 seconds there. FisherBlack lost 43 seconds). However, Vingegaard could possibly beat Roglic on Angliru but we will never know.

 

[Andy schleck]

But we can't say he was stronger than Roglic. Maybe he was but I think Roglic was held back on Tourmalet and specially in the stage he lost 1.10 minutes to Vingegaard (he would never lose more than 20 seconds there. FisherBlack lost 43 seconds). However, Vingegaard could possibly beat Roglic on Angliru but we will never know.

Vingegaard without being in top shape, showed that he is stronger in the mountains than everybody else in this vuelta. He just showed some weaknesses in the ITT. Roglic couldn't even drop Mas and ayuso in biejes, and tourmalet, he could have gone more faster on angliru.

 

[Netserk]

Vingegaard without being in top shape, showed that he is stronger in the mountains than everybody else in this vuelta. He just showed some weaknesses in the ITT. Roglic couldn't even drop Mas and ayuso in biejes, and tourmalet, he could have gone more faster on angliru.

On Tourmalet, I think Rogla could have sucked Vingegaard's wheel to the line.

 

[Andy schleck]

On Tourmalet, I think Rogla could have sucked Vingegaard's wheel to the line.

That's what he does better. Sucking wheel's of everybody, and then just attack in the last 500m/1 km/ 2 km. He doesn't have the guts to attack from far, and then his fanboys cry that he "couldn't do anything" because of Vingegaard.
He couldn't even drop Mas and ayuso on tourmalet.

 

[pman]

That's what he does better. Sucking wheel's of everybody, and then just attack in the last 500m/1 km/ 2 km. He doesn't have the guts to attack from far, and then his fanboys cry that he "couldn't do anything" because of Vingegaard.
He couldn't even drop Mas and ayuso on tourmalet.

I don't really want to respond to this but you know that's not fair. He's won races/stages going long and you know it. He's a bike racer. Plus what you're describing is how the sport worked in the era between the 90s/early 200s and a year or so ago. You use your teammates and pick up marginal gains at the end.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

That's what he does better. Sucking wheel's of everybody, and then just attack in the last 500m/1 km/ 2 km. He doesn't have the guts to attack from far, and then his fanboys cry that he "couldn't do anything" because of Vingegaard.
He couldn't even drop Mas and ayuso on tourmalet.

Roglič didn't do an all out attempt until the final km of Tourmalet, where he did manage to drop the others, but he had of course also spent less energy than Vingegaard, Kuss, Mas and Ayuso by that point, so it's difficult to judge how strong he was.

 

[Blanco]

In the moment, there is no way to know if Kuss has cracked too much to stay within the margin.

As said they both should have waited, but when one didn't it was a given the other would also not.

Roglic is 1.33 behind Kuss, and 1.04 behind Vingegaard.
Again, why didn't he stayed with Kuss and paced him when all he wants is a Sepp Kuss win?!
If Sepp starts to crack badly, and he sees that he can't keep the jersey, only then he could go full gas and keep the jersey away from Roglic, if that was his main concern.

 

[Andy schleck]

I don't really want to respond to this but you know that's not fair. He's won races/stages going long and you know it. He's a bike racer. Plus what you're describing is how the sport worked in the era between the 90s/early 200s and a year or so ago. You use your teammates and pick up marginal gains at the end.

How roglic was going to take the red jersey from kuss attacking always in the end of the stages?
What's the problem with vingegaard attacking from far, if Roglic waits always for final meters? He can also attack in the final meters, and do his thing.

 

[pman]

How roglic was going to take the red jersey from kuss attacking always in the end of the stages?
What's the problem with vingegaard attacking from far, if Roglic waits always for final meters? He can also attack in the final meters, and do his thing.

I am not saying what Vingegaard did was wrong. I actually think he is probably the strongest rider in the race. I am just saying, you know very well that Roglic has won going long at times in his career. I know emotions are high, apparently with us fans as well but lets keep it civil. We're fans, we love the sport. Those guys are busting it for us and I think we should dial down the attacks a bit.

 

[Blanco]

Fischer-Black, Wout Poels and Michael Storer all went away and didn't get catched. It seemed to me, that neither Kuss or Roglic had eminent legs that day - and then Kuss lost some extra seconds in the sprint. Sorry - don't buy the theory that they could have followed Vingegaard - because then they would have followed either Fishcer-Black, Poels or Storer

Yeah that trio is really strong, it was a really big battle on Angliru tomorrow between this three and Kuss and Roglic. Man couldn't tell who of them is stronger..

 

[Samu Cuenca]

How roglic was going to take the red jersey from kuss attacking always in the end of the stages?
What's the problem with vingegaard attacking from far, if Roglic waits always for final meters? He can also attack in the final meters, and do his thing.

There was nothing wrong with Vingegaard's attack on Tourmalet, but on Bejes he was allowed to change the original plan. Not that there was anything wrong with that, but it happened late without Kuss and Roglič (allegedly) being able to influence it. No DS will tell a defending Tour champion that he can't try to win for his good friend and teammate (although I don't know the exact words he used when asking for permission).

Roglič and/or Kuss and their supporters would probably have come to terms with it, if Vingegaard had gained 30 seconds at best, but that wasn't what happened. Whether Vingegaard is a manipulative, calculating bastard, an emotional, naive, big-hearted do-gooder, or something in-between, I can't say, but the result of his actions ended up hurting the team in more ways than one, no matter what his intentions were.

 

[Boehmand]

Roglic is 1.33 behind Kuss, and 1.04 behind Vingegaard.
Again, why didn't he stayed with Kuss and paced him when all he wants is a Sepp Kuss win?!
If Sepp starts to crack badly, and he sees that he can't keep the jersey, only then he could go full gas and keep the jersey away from Roglic, if that was his main concern.

All in the space of 1.8 K?

You have a vivid imagination

Also it's quite funny you keep harping on about Vingegaard not waiting for Kuss, while being completely fine with Roglic riding away from Kuss at the same time - it's a crystal clear double standard born out of apparent fandom.

 

[Blanco]

That's the point precisely. Roglic can't take 1.30 in just 2km, so why was Vinge glued to his wheel? Maybe because he was only 29 down, what you think?

 

[Boehmand]

There was nothing wrong with Vingegaard's attack on Tourmalet, but on Bejes he was allowed to change the original plan. Not that there was anything wrong with that, but it happened late without Kuss and Roglič (allegedly) being able to influence it. No DS will tell a defending Tour champion that he can't try to win for his good friend and teammate (although I don't know the exact words he used when asking for permission).

Roglič and/or Kuss and their supporters would probably have come to terms with it, if Vingegaard had gained 30 seconds at best, but that wasn't what happened. Whether Vingegaard is a manipulative, calculating bastard, an emotional, naive, big-hearted do-gooder, or something in-between, I can't say, but the result of his actions ended up hurting the team in more ways than one, no matter what his intentions were.

What are you on about with Rolic and Kuss not being able to influence the choice to attack?

They are all on the same radio channel. When Vingegaard called up the car to ask if he should attack, they obviously both heard it and could have chimed in if they disagreed.

Also everyone seems to forget that at that point JV was out of Doms, Valter was the last one and he was cooked, so JV either had to attack to force the other teams to chase, or possibly comprome 1 of their leaders to ride tempo and run the risk of getting planted when others attacked.

So from a tactical perspective it was the right choice for JV to attack at that point - it might as well have been Roglic or Kuss - but apparently Vingegaard got the idea and was first to call it.

Forget about "calculating bastard" or "naive do-gooder" - it was the right call TACTICALLY.

The only problem was, which nobody could have forseen, that the other teams just flat out refused to chase, but blaming Vingegaard or JV for that makes no sense.

 

[kn0s]

There was nothing wrong with Vingegaard's attack on Tourmalet, but on Bejes he was allowed to change the original plan. Not that there was anything wrong with that, but it happened late without Kuss and Roglič (allegedly) being able to influence it. No DS will tell a defending Tour champion that he can't try to win for his good friend and teammate (although I don't know the exact words he used when asking for permission).

Roglič and/or Kuss and their supporters would probably have come to terms with it, if Vingegaard had gained 30 seconds at best, but that wasn't what happened. Whether Vingegaard is a manipulative, calculating bastard, an emotional, naive, big-hearted do-gooder, or something in-between, I can't say, but the result of his actions ended up hurting the team in more ways than one, no matter what his intentions were.

This is finally a reasonable take, thank you. This topic has been bugging me, because it has gone way out of proportions.

The result was bad for the fans of Roglic in particular, and any reason went out the window. Kuss fans probably had a chock also.

This was a bad climb for Kuss the team as well as us following cycling would know that. Constant attacks from the top 10 for 4km straight would be bad. Kuss, Jonas and Roglic would have to close again and again or trust in others to do so and look how that went.

The tactics used was textbook, but the result was extreme.

 

[Boehmand]

That's the point precisely. Roglic can't take 1.30 in just 2km, so why was Vinge glued to his wheel? Maybe because he was only 29 down, what you think?

I see you ignoring the point about Roglic attacking Kuss and riding away from him - I wonder why