Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Froome]

"It became clear that Jonas lacked the explosiveness to respond to Pogačar" - Visma's head of performance on getting Vingegaard back to his top level

Jonas Vingegaard won the 2022 and 2023 Tour de France editions and as thr 2024 season began, he looked as strong as ever and a Tour de France battle was being highly anticipated. His miraculous return...

cyclinguptodate.com

"There was a big difference. We focused on making him stronger in terms of muscle mass last winter. Last year Jonas was lighter than ever in the Tour de France, but mainly because he had lost so much muscle mass after his injuries,"

 

[Peyroteo94]

I'm looking forward to see him in my home country. Route is not great for him but I still expect him to win the race in the final TT

 

[Cookster15]

"It became clear that Jonas lacked the explosiveness to respond to Pogačar" - Visma's head of performance on getting Vingegaard back to his top level

Jonas Vingegaard won the 2022 and 2023 Tour de France editions and as thr 2024 season began, he looked as strong as ever and a Tour de France battle was being highly anticipated. His miraculous return...

cyclinguptodate.com

"There was a big difference. We focused on making him stronger in terms of muscle mass last winter. Last year Jonas was lighter than ever in the Tour de France, but mainly because he had lost so much muscle mass after his injuries,"

Wishful thinking on Visma's part. Vingegaard will never be as explosive as Pogacar. Impossible.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Wishful thinking on Visma's part. Vingegaard will never be as explosive as Pogacar. Impossible.

Vingo lost substantial time only on one stage (Galibier) due to less explosivity while on stage 11 he managed to bridge back to Pogacar. The biggest losses happened on most difficult climbs - he simply lacked climbing w/kg to match Pog. He can get better with optimal preparation but it's not about explosivity but mainly about 20-45 minute w/kg, as usually.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Vingo lost substantial time only on one stage (Galibier) due to less explosivity while on stage 11 he managed to bridge back to Pogacar. The biggest losses happened on most difficult climbs - he simply lacked climbing w/kg to match Pog. He can get better with optimal preparation but it's not about explosivity but mainly about 20-45 minute w/kg, as usually.

This is true. Even in 2023, Pogacar was more explosive than Vingegaard and could drop him a couple of times. But Vingo lost time in Galibier due to his lack of downhill skills (he was very good but probably regressed a lot due to his crash in Pais Vasco. He needs to rebuild his confidence).

 

[Cookster15]

Vingo lost substantial time only on one stage (Galibier) due to less explosivity while on stage 11 he managed to bridge back to Pogacar. The biggest losses happened on most difficult climbs - he simply lacked climbing w/kg to match Pog. He can get better with optimal preparation but it's not about explosivity but mainly about 20-45 minute w/kg, as usually.

Agree. We have seen Pogacar's explosivity since he arrived on the scene. In the 2020 TdF he out sprinted Roglic on MTFs (Grand Colombier).

Vingo has never been known for explosivity which is why I was surprised to read those comments. Fully agree where Vingo needs to close the gap is in sustained w/kg. Also, what happened in 2022 and 2023 is no longer relevant. I think we all expect Vingo to be much better in 2025 with uninterrupted prep, especially in the 3rd week. But I still doubt he can defeat Pog. It will be a closer fight but I don't see Vingo being able to drop Pog in the mountains or have any advantage in TTs.

 

[James M]

Wishful thinking on Visma's part. Vingegaard will never be as explosive as Pogacar. Impossible.

Personally think the explosiveness is overrated, he will never match it, and its not the main issue.

Vingo lost substantial time only on one stage (Galibier) due to less explosivity while on stage 11 he managed to bridge back to Pogacar. The biggest losses happened on most difficult climbs - he simply lacked climbing w/kg to match Pog. He can get better with optimal preparation but it's not about explosivity but mainly about 20-45 minute w/kg, as usually.

Bingo. Aside from Galibier explosesiveness isnt the case at all, the case is he needs to be able to sustain higher average speed(w/kg its that simple and yet so hard) uphill above anything else,first close that gap. Pogacar didnt attack last 500 meter besides the time he didnt actually even try to win the stage with his team. He attacked 5-6-7-8 km out and just keept riding at a w/kg noone else is close to sustain, explosiveness is not the issue. Well it is a issue but far from the main issue.

 

[Pogacsa]

. But Vingo lost time in Galibier due to his lack of downhill skills (he was very good but probably regressed a lot due to his crash in Pais Vasco..

No, he lost time in the straight pedaled descents where Pogacar's greater weight (64 v 58kg) gave him an advantage. Nothing to do with downhill skills

 

[theyoungest]

Personally think the explosiveness is overrated, he will never match it, and its not the main issue. Jumbo is starting to be more and more like a chihuahua each year, alot of bark little bite, cant even remember the last time they won a cobble monument. To their defense, its literally their job to gasslight their own riders so its understandable.

Bingo. Aside from Galibier explosesiveness isnt the case at all, the case is he needs to be able to sustain higher average speed(w/kg its that simple and yet so hard) uphill above anything else,first close that gap. Pogacar didnt attack last 500 meter besides the time he didnt actually even try to win the stage with his team. He attacked 5-6-7-8 km out and just keept riding at a w/kg noone else is close to sustain, explosiveness is not the issue. Well it is a issue but far from the main issue.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but what made Vingegaard win those two Tours in the first place is that he was able to sustain a higher pace for longer than Pogacar, and recover better from the effort. What separated Pogacar from Vingegaard used to be his explosiveness, not his endurance. He closed the gap last year, in fact probably surpassed what Vingegaard has ever been able to do, but I'd like to see a well-prepared Vingegaard take him on. It will almost certainly be a closer race.

 

[Cookster15]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but what made Vingegaard win those two Tours in the first place is that he was able to sustain a higher pace for longer than Pogacar, and recover better from the effort. What separated Pogacar from Vingegaard used to be his explosiveness, not his endurance. He closed the gap last year, in fact probably surpassed what Vingegaard has ever been able to do, but I'd like to see a well-prepared Vingegaard take him on. It will almost certainly be a closer race.

He is saying this:

the explosiveness is overrated, he will never match it

This is self evident surely. Its Visma's job to motivate their riders. The team radio race highlights on stage 15 of 2024 Tour confirmed this, in summary, if we execute the plan we know Pogacar can't match you. Except he did.

What separated Vingegaard from Pogacar in those two Tours he beat him were a number of factors both in and outside Pogacar's control. Like his silly tactics chasing Roglic on Granon then blowing up. I put that down to over confidence. His LBL crash in 2023 which cost him recovery at the Tour. IMO this was why he collapsed on Loze after riding a great TT at Combloux trying to match Vingo's never repeated before or since effort.

But in 2024 Pogacar certainly surpassed anything we have ever seen from Vingegaard. Like better on long hard stages - no. Better at altitude. No. Better in the heat. No. Better watts/kg on long climbs. No. And all that after riding himself into form by winning the Giro easily.

But Vingegaard was still likely better last year than we have ever seen him including those tours he beat Pogacar. His w/kg certainly were, just as VIsma claimed despite his big crash and injuries. And lets not forget he comfortably beat Remco in the Nice TT so his recovery was still excellent.

I'd like to see a well-prepared Vingegaard take him on. It will almost certainly be a closer race.

I think nearly all fans would agree. Hoping for both riders to have an uninterrupted and healthy preparation for the 2025 showdown.

 

[Froome]

Vingegaard won those Tours because he pushed more watts than Pogacar. Simple as that.

He will have to push more watts than him this year to win the Tour. Simple as that.

Don't confuse explosiveness in a sprint with explosiveness during a attack. Vingegaard had before the severe crash explosiveness to follow the attacks.

 

[YavorD]

Vingegaard won those Tours because he pushed more watts than Pogacar. Simple as that.

He will have to push more watts than him this year to win the Tour. Simple as that.

Don't confuse explosiveness in a sprint with explosiveness during a attack. Vingegaard had before the severe crash explosiveness to follow the attacks.

No, he didn't. I remember him being dropped 3 times in 2023 (okay, one of them was because of his attack on Tourmalet) purely on explosiveness.
He was able to catch up/not lose time because he was able to sustain higher rhythm.

In 2024 he was often losing time because he couldn't match Pogacar's pace not because of acceleration. And Vingegaard himself was extremely strong in that Tour, arguably stronger than he's ever been. Yet, no match for Pogacar.

 

[Offline]

Vingegaard won those Tours because he pushed more watts than Pogacar. Simple as that.

He will have to push more watts than him this year to win the Tour. Simple as that.

Don't confuse explosiveness in a sprint with explosiveness during a attack. Vingegaard had before the severe crash explosiveness to follow the attacks.

You make cycling sounds so boring... Just like Plugge

 

[Froome]

You make cycling sounds so boring... Just like Plugge

That's what cycling is in terms of GT contenders. You have to be the strongest to win, except if you are Wiggins in 2012, but it was an exception.

 

[Offline]

That's what cycling is in terms of GT contenders. You have to be the strongest to win, except if you are Wiggins in 2012, but it was an exception.

You make cycling sounds so boring... Just like Plugge

 

[Netserk]

The team radio race highlights on stage 15 of 2024 Tour confirmed this, in summary, if we execute the plan we know Pogacar can't match you. Except he did.

They never said that they knew that he couldn't follow. They hoped for it, as it was their best play. Thus the expressed belief in the plan.

Grischa: "But of course still a hard fight to drop Pogačar, eh. We need a big pull of Matteo for the first 20 minutes, and then Jonas you just have to do your TT after that, and we believe he will get in problems, eh."

Cookster: Visma team car said to Vinge on the radio that Pogacar couldn't match the watts in the heat Vingegaard was doing on PdB.

I don't think you summed up the radio message very well. I also fail to see what the alternative should have been to such an encouragement before their attack on the climb.

 

[Peyroteo94]

It would be priceless to see their face in the team car after Pogacar took off his hands to fresh his head with water 1 minute after Vingegaard's attack.

 

[Froome]

It would be priceless to see their face in the team car after Pogacar took off his hands to fresh his head with water 1 minute after Vingegaard's attack.

Still a better face than "i'm gone, i'm dead".

 

[AmRacer]

I like to see Jonas at Remco's wheel again.
Jonas, 'Remco what are you doing?'
Remco, 'I'm attacking you.'
Jonas, 'I show you how to attack'

 

[Cookster15]

They never said that they knew that he couldn't follow. They hoped for it, as it was their best play. Thus the expressed belief in the plan.

This is true. But I took those team car comments in the context of what Visma have said before. Richard Plugge made similar comments in 2022 and 2023. Visma always seemed to think they had it all worked out and knew Pogacar's watts. But cycling isn't like that. Riders can have better preparation and tactics and circumstances on the road can hide true abilities. I also mentioned that it is the teams responsibility to encourage riders. But in doing so publicly they can also insult their rival. Noteworthy that Pogacar himself never took this personally.

we believe he will get in problems, eh

This exact phrase reminded me of the arrogance of Sky in the 2012 Tour when they predicted if they rode at a certain watts the outcome was inevitable. Anyway, I am sure Visma, like everyone, were shell shocked after PdB. I think Vingegaard was placed under immense pressure to deliver the plan after all he had come back from. The emotional effect became obvious after Bonnette when he was consoled by Jorgenson.

But despite the apparent inevitability of his defeat Vingegaard fought on and still beat Remco in the Nice TT. This certainly earned my respect. We all wait with baited breath for the next installment of this rivally in July.

 

[theyoungest]

This is true. But I took those team car comments in the context of what Visma have said before. Richard Plugge made similar comments in 2022 and 2023. Visma always seemed to think they had it all worked out and knew Pogacar's watts. But cycling isn't like that. Riders can have better preparation and tactics and circumstances on the road can hide true abilities. I also mentioned that it is the teams responsibility to encourage riders. But in doing so publicly they can also insult their rival. Noteworthy that Pogacar himself never took this personally.

I find this kind of sensitivity from Pogacar fans a bit silly. Visma keep saying over and over again that Pogacar is the best rider in the world and they need their entire team to beat him, yet if they think they've found a weakness it's suddenly a huge insult.

And yes, they did say that Vingegaard had his best w/kg ever one one of these climbs in 2024, but we should take that with a grain of salt. Firstly because he had simply lost muscle mass after the crash in Pais Vasco, so with lower absolute power he could still maybe push a higher relative power. Secondly because they tried to project confidence, you can't blame them for that. And finally, he quite obviously wasn't at his best ever, how could he be after less than two months of preparation. That's delusional.

 

[Cookster15]

but we should take that with a grain of salt.

Disagree. Beating Remco in the Nice TT was proof he was likely better than in 2022 and 2023.

 

[Netserk]

Disagree. Beating Remco in the Nice TT was proof he was likely better than in 2022 and 2023.

Tour de France 2022 Stage 20 (ITT) results

Wout van Aert is the winner of Tour de France 2022 Stage 20 (ITT), before Jonas Vingegaard and Tadej PogaÄar. Jonas Vingegaard was leader in GC.

www.procyclingstats.com

Tour de France 2023 Stage 16 (ITT) results

Jonas Vingegaard is the winner of Tour de France 2023 Stage 16 (ITT), before Tadej PogaÄar and Wout van Aert. Jonas Vingegaard was leader in GC.

www.procyclingstats.com

 

[Froome]

Disagree. Beating Remco in the Nice TT was proof he was likely better than in 2022 and 2023.

You want to believe in what you said, but deep down you know is not true.

Yes, Vingegaard is so good he just finished just 6 min behind the best Pogacar version ever, after all those severe injuries he had.

 

[Red Rick]

Hot take, but I think that ITT was actually more encouraging than his climbing performances.

Meanwhile, Algarve should be interesting. It looks from the profile that they're climbing Foia from a different side this time, shallower overall but steeper final 1.5km, and Malhao is an ITT this time.