Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[CyclistAbi]

FYI Rogla winning isn't part of that deal, it's only in between Pogi and Jonas and even for that we aren't taking it seriously.

 

[Maxss]

I think Jonas did a good Dauphine, even compared to expectations. The level was extremely high. When was the last time he competed at such a high level? Probably TDF24. I believe it will help him tremendously.
Just the peloton skills themselves...Take stage 6 for example: Just as Sivakov was emptying himself before pulling off, Jonas was out of position and had to make a big effort to move up. That cost him , cause he had no time to recover. Then he made the mistake (not really, cause you want to see where you are) of going too deep and it caused a complete explosion which resulted in a 1 min gap.

Visma and UAE are taking different approaches, So I wouldn't draw too much from the Dauphine, at least regarding the differences between them. The battle ground is the TDF, always has been. Don't forget Tadej killed him in TA22 and PN23 only to lose the Tour on both occasions. It doesn't mean it's gonna happen again, just that these 1 week races are a totally different ball game. Of course Tadej is stronger in those races, he always has been. He is the stronger rider overall, again no surprise there. But the Tour is so much more difficult, this is where Jonas can compensate and has shown it in the past.

I don't think we've seen the best of Jonas yet, he'll probably increase his level further during the next few weeks. This plus the very strong team gives me every reason to be optimistic.

 

[Froome]

I think Jonas did a good Dauphine, even compared to expectations. The level was extremely high. When was the last time he competed at such a high level? Probably TDF24. I believe it will help him tremendously.
Just the peloton skills themselves...Take stage 6 for example: Just as Sivakov was emptying himself before pulling off, Jonas was out of position and had to make a big effort to move up. That cost him , cause he had no time to recover. Then he made the mistake (not really, cause you want to see where you are) of going too deep and it caused a complete explosion which resulted in a 1 min gap.

Visma and UAE are taking different approaches, So I wouldn't draw too much from the Dauphine, at least regarding the differences between them. The battle ground is the TDF, always has been. Don't forget Tadej killed him in TA22 and PN23 only to lose the Tour on both occasions. It doesn't mean it's gonna happen again, just that these 1 week races are a totally different ball game. Of course Tadej is stronger in those races, he always has been. He is the stronger rider overall, again no surprise there. But the Tour is so much more difficult, this is where Jonas can compensate and has shown it in the past.

I don't think we've seen the best of Jonas yet, he'll probably increase his level further during the next few weeks. This plus the very strong team gives me every reason to be optimistic.

He did great in the ITT, considering we are in June. I think he had the power to short and fresh efforts, but he suffered a bit more in the mountains due to lack of racing.

Valmonier he improved, but in Combloux he was stuck in his the level of 2023.

 

[Froome]

FYI Rogla winning isn't part of that deal, it's only in between Pogi and Jonas and even for that we aren't taking it seriously.

It is the same Abi. If roglic beats Vingegaard in the Tour or Vuelta, i will be out of this forum.

 

[Froome]

Vingegaard not Pogacar the favourite for 2025 Tour de France says Jerome Pineau: "He will be more than ready for the challenge come July"

It's fair to say, that after a dominant performance at the recent Criterium du Dauphiné, defending Maillot Jaune Tadej Pogacar heads to the Tour de France in 2025 as the man to beat once again in the...

cyclinguptodate.com

I firmly believe it," Pineau begins in conversation with the Grand Plateau podcast, impressed by the level shown from Vingegaard at the Dauphine, despite the Dane's ultimate defeat by Pogacar in the high mountains. "He’s coming off a long training block, and I think he’s in astonishing form, considering everything he’s been through."
Pineau also looks towards the 2024 Tour de France as evidence to back up his claim, suggesting the performance of Vingegaard twelve months ago after so little preparation bodes well for this year, given he has had time to prepare properly. "I thought he was outstanding last year when he finished second," says Pineau firmly. "He never gave up. He was far behind Pogacar after a serious crash, yet he kept fighting."

And so, despite finishing almost a minute down on Pogacar at the Dauphine, Vingegaard remains the man to beat according to the French ex-pro. "I have him down as the Tour winner because he showed some impressive signs this week — especially in the time trial, where he took 30 seconds out of Pogacar," he explains. "I believe he’ll make huge strides and will be more than ready for the challenge come July."

 

[CyclistAbi]

It is the same Abi. If roglic beats Vingegaard in the Tour or Vuelta, i will be out of this forum.

Nah, we won't let you off that easily, Jonas will need you. Plus Rogla was never part of the deal in the first place and Jonas did hit the deck in spring, so 2025 is out of the question anyway, all riders need to be riding healthy.

 

[Oldman]

Even his team said Vingegaard doesn't need to race a lot and how he can be really good with obly altitude training. Every indicator points to a boring Tour.

They've defended that philosophy for awhile. I don't think that works after a significant absence due to injury. Simulate all you want but there is no replacement for digging deeper than the comfort level and then finding the recovery time for that effort. He simply hasn't had enough time to accomplish that. Like you, I think his resources may not elevate that enough to make the Tour super exciting.

 

[Oldman]

Vingegaard not Pogacar the favourite for 2025 Tour de France says Jerome Pineau: "He will be more than ready for the challenge come July"

It's fair to say, that after a dominant performance at the recent Criterium du Dauphiné, defending Maillot Jaune Tadej Pogacar heads to the Tour de France in 2025 as the man to beat once again in the...

cyclinguptodate.com

I firmly believe it," Pineau begins in conversation with the Grand Plateau podcast, impressed by the level shown from Vingegaard at the Dauphine, despite the Dane's ultimate defeat by Pogacar in the high mountains. "He’s coming off a long training block, and I think he’s in astonishing form, considering everything he’s been through."
Pineau also looks towards the 2024 Tour de France as evidence to back up his claim, suggesting the performance of Vingegaard twelve months ago after so little preparation bodes well for this year, given he has had time to prepare properly. "I thought he was outstanding last year when he finished second," says Pineau firmly. "He never gave up. He was far behind Pogacar after a serious crash, yet he kept fighting."

And so, despite finishing almost a minute down on Pogacar at the Dauphine, Vingegaard remains the man to beat according to the French ex-pro. "I have him down as the Tour winner because he showed some impressive signs this week — especially in the time trial, where he took 30 seconds out of Pogacar," he explains. "I believe he’ll make huge strides and will be more than ready for the challenge come July."

It seems Pineau is glossing over much of the tactical rope-a-doping in the Dauphine. While some riders showed great form it's also clear not everyone committed as deeply as they could. Vindegaard has made great post-injury strides but, like last Tour; it's unknown if it 3 weeks worth of upgrade.

 

[YavorD]

Vingegaard not Pogacar the favourite for 2025 Tour de France says Jerome Pineau: "He will be more than ready for the challenge come July"

It's fair to say, that after a dominant performance at the recent Criterium du Dauphiné, defending Maillot Jaune Tadej Pogacar heads to the Tour de France in 2025 as the man to beat once again in the...

cyclinguptodate.com

I firmly believe it," Pineau begins in conversation with the Grand Plateau podcast, impressed by the level shown from Vingegaard at the Dauphine, despite the Dane's ultimate defeat by Pogacar in the high mountains. "He’s coming off a long training block, and I think he’s in astonishing form, considering everything he’s been through."
Pineau also looks towards the 2024 Tour de France as evidence to back up his claim, suggesting the performance of Vingegaard twelve months ago after so little preparation bodes well for this year, given he has had time to prepare properly. "I thought he was outstanding last year when he finished second," says Pineau firmly. "He never gave up. He was far behind Pogacar after a serious crash, yet he kept fighting."

And so, despite finishing almost a minute down on Pogacar at the Dauphine, Vingegaard remains the man to beat according to the French ex-pro. "I have him down as the Tour winner because he showed some impressive signs this week — especially in the time trial, where he took 30 seconds out of Pogacar," he explains. "I believe he’ll make huge strides and will be more than ready for the challenge come July."

Wasn't Pineau the one who messed up his team B&B hotels?
I wouldn't put a lot of credibility on him.

 

[hayneplane]

Like i said before the end of the Giro, Visma will win the three Grand Tours this year, but this time the Tour will be a close call like a gap 1 min and half/ 2 min, not like in the last years.

I stand by what i said, but remember the conditions, "no bad luck or crashes".

Bad luck is a very broad term. Does that include the misfortune of bad timing to be up against the ascending best rider of the last 50 years.

 

[Froome]

Nah, we won't let you off that easily, Jonas will need you. Plus Rogla was never part of the deal in the first place and Jonas did hit the deck in spring, so 2025 is out of the question anyway, all riders need to be riding healthy.

Roglic have reasons for not being in top shape during the Tour after what happened with the crashes.

Vingegaard will be fine in July. The concussion had influence in the Dauphine in the sense of lack of racing. It will not be a problem in July.

My point is similar to what sainz said, in terms of what kind of preparation Vingegaard is doing.

A Manolo Saiz no le impresionó Pogacar en la Dauphine y señala que "¡hay mucho Tour, pero mucho! y lo va a ganar Vingegaard"

Para el legendario director del equipo ONCE el Tour va a estar muy igualado y ve más favorito a Vingegaad que a Pogacar.

diariodeltriatlon.es

I will not leave the forum Abi, i trust 100% in what Jonas will do in the Tour.

 

[Tonton]

If I'm Jonas Vingegaard, clearly the second best GT rider today, I'm just fine...no reason to be panicking. Can I field the dominant team in this Tour? He's super dangerous, but without the best team, odds are tiny.

There's no shame being second to Tadej Pogacar, and at least, Jonas is not hiding, and I hope that it stays that way. I'd rather have three more TdF 2nd places and faced the dragon with courage and bravery than Rominger my way to GT wins.

Vingegaard will give it his best. Better than all the rest. Better than anyone, anyone but Pogacar. Yeah, I love Tina Turner .

Allez Jonas! Only you and Paul Seixas can do it, but he won't be there...

 

[Tonton]

Amazing how the last post in the thread, mine, is now two days old. Having been on this forum for some time, it's like mou are giving up on him. My observation.

 

[Gratemans]

Vingegaard will be fine in July. The concussion had influence in the Dauphine in the sense of lack of racing. It will not be a problem in July.

This. Both Jonas and Primoz will be at peak shape at the Tour. Something we haven't seen for two years, mind you. No excuses this time for either of them.

 

[Berniece]

Amazing how the last post in the thread, mine, is now two days old. Having been on this forum for some time, it's like mou are giving up on him. My observation.

Most rider threads aren’t that active anymore, I think most people are in racing threads, but not sure how this was 10 years ago

 

[pelotonIQ]

Pogacar had a massive jump in performance in 2024, at 25 years of age;

Vingegaard has been improving his numbers every single year, but Vingegaard is 28 already.
If we have to assume, we can confidently assume that his gains year-on-year will become increasingly diminished. So, even if he can improve again this year as much as he improved in the last 2 years combined, that still won't be enough to match Pogacar's 2024.

So, you must account for the possibility that the 2024 version of Pogacar (likely his 2025 version as well) is just better and stronger than Vingegaard could ever be.
If that's the case, there's no amount of coach changes that is ever going to be enough.
A silver medal in the Tour might be his ceiling, no matter what his coach his.

Pogacars massive jump in performance was mainly because of correcting the mistakes of his previous coach (San Millan) he had Pogacar doing Z2- training 80% of training days but with his new coach Sola he is doing more high intensity training, more intervalls, he fixed Pogacars problem with heat and restructured the altitude camps so to not overload Pogacar. Vingegaard have nothing to lose if he tries a new coach that can help him find different ways of training to unlock more potential also 28 years old is perfect age, still room for improvement.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Amazing how the last post in the thread, mine, is now two days old. Having been on this forum for some time, it's like mou are giving up on him. My observation.

It's even worse for Rogla and Remco.

 

[RedheadDane]

Amazing how the last post in the thread, mine, is now two days old. Having been on this forum for some time, it's like mou are giving up on him. My observation.

Mou has never claimed knowledge about Vingegaard?

 

[Cycling111]

Aside from correcting some things, age also plays a role.
There are some cases where some riders' peak performance was between 20 and 22 years old, but the normal trend is between 25 and 28.
Roglic's case is also exceptional, for example, but in his case, because he performed better after that age.

Vingegaard made a huge leap in level in 2022 at the age of 25; he turned 26 that year.
In 2022, Vingegaard was the same age as Pogacar in 2024.

Remco performed at his best climbing level last year and is likely to continue improving for a couple of years.

My doubt arises regarding the current junior riders, who are now so professional. Many are now in development teams with pro-level training and equipment.

Pogacar in 2018 was on a continental team that didn't even use a time trial bike. They didn't do altitude training like most do now, and even if you look at photos, he was "overweight".

We'll see what professional margin Seixas or Widar have, who have been on teams like Decathón since they were 16, training like the first team members since they were 16.

 

[ppanther92]

It's like saying Evenepoel races too little. Without injuries and concussions, both would probably race more than Pogi.

In terms of race days maybe, for sure not in terms of peaks/races targeted

 

[theyoungest]

Aside from correcting some things, age also plays a role.
There are some cases where some riders' peak performance was between 20 and 22 years old, but the normal trend is between 25 and 28.
Roglic's case is also exceptional, for example, but in his case, because he performed better after that age.

Vingegaard made a huge leap in level in 2022 at the age of 25; he turned 26 that year.
In 2022, Vingegaard was the same age as Pogacar in 2024.

Remco performed at his best climbing level last year and is likely to continue improving for a couple of years.

My doubt arises regarding the current junior riders, who are now so professional. Many are now in development teams with pro-level training and equipment.

Pogacar in 2018 was on a continental team that didn't even use a time trial bike. They didn't do altitude training like most do now, and even if you look at photos, he was "overweight".

We'll see what professional margin Seixas or Widar have, who have been on teams like Decathón since they were 16, training like the first team members since they were 16.

If you compare him to Vingegaard, Pogi was better at a younger age because he was actually more professional and didn't spend time at a fish factory. In Pogi's case it was obviously not his age that made him so much better from one year to the next in 2024. It's clearly the new coach.

 

[hayneplane]

Aside from correcting some things, age also plays a role.
There are some cases where some riders' peak performance was between 20 and 22 years old, but the normal trend is between 25 and 28.
Roglic's case is also exceptional, for example, but in his case, because he performed better after that age.

Vingegaard made a huge leap in level in 2022 at the age of 25; he turned 26 that year.
In 2022, Vingegaard was the same age as Pogacar in 2024.

Remco performed at his best climbing level last year and is likely to continue improving for a couple of years.

My doubt arises regarding the current junior riders, who are now so professional. Many are now in development teams with pro-level training and equipment.

Pogacar in 2018 was on a continental team that didn't even use a time trial bike. They didn't do altitude training like most do now, and even if you look at photos, he was "overweight".

We'll see what professional margin Seixas or Widar have, who have been on teams like Decathón since they were 16, training like the first team members since they were 16.

Jonas should potentially still have some room for development as it wasn’t until he was 22/23 that he really started to show anything in terms of significant results so it’s not as though he was a high level junior or U23 rider already functioning like a world tour rider.

 

[TrekCyclist]

Vingegard probably should try not to waste more energy than absolutely needed on hilly / punch stages. Let Pogacar take 10s here and there, if he really is forcing it.
Vindegaard should spend his energy on the long mountain stages, and hope that Pogacar has a not so good day or two. Like in 2022-23. If Pogacar is in top shape every single day, well that's it. But given the last TdFs, thats far from certain.

 

[Red Rick]

Like Van der poel said, you can't replicate in training what you do in intensive racing, that's why Vingegaard already improved a lot the day after combloux.

My point is, a lot of things happened to Vingegaard since April 2024 who prevented to continue his evolution. That's why i think he can still improve more than Pogacar in the next month. Pogacar will improve a bit more until the Tour, but he didn't had any trouble since last year, so he could do a evolution/ being in better shape than Vingegaard, because he didn't came from a more deep place like Vingegaard.

I've never really believed in the psychological aspect of not going being able to simulate racing efforts in training. I think it has much more to do with the irregularity and specificity of races that happen due to parcours, tactics and positioning. Also, coming down from altitude and having a few days of low intensity detraining before UAE launches a bazooka on Domancy.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I've never really believed in the psychological aspect of not going being able to simulate racing efforts in training. I think it has much more to do with the irregularity and specificity of races that happen due to parcours, tactics and positioning. Also, coming down from altitude and having a few days of low intensity detraining before UAE launches a bazooka on Domancy.

Nah, most riders (even Pogacar) said the stage before Combloux was a proper TdF stage. I think Vingegaard lost so much time because he blew himself when he tried to follow Pogacar. It was a rookie mistake.