Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Devil's Elbow]

Fair. The gaps to the rest of the field in the past two days have not been very alien-like though.

This mainly has a lot to do with the not very alien-like lack of attacks on both MTFs. I have a very hard time buying that neither Pogacar nor Vingegaard was capable of going faster today than a Lipowitz who went deeper than anyone yesterday.

I'm still curious about your answer to what Vingegaard should have done differently in this Tour. As I tend to appreciate your insights on things.

Winning the GC was probably impossible, but there is not a single stage that Visma/Vingegaard played well with regards to going for the stage post-GC being decided on Hautacam. On Superbagnères and Ventoux, they automatically put themselves out of contention by giving a breakaway where they didn't have anyone who was remotely in the mix too much rope (although you could argue that they could have expected more of Yates on the former), on Loze they completely mishandled the valley section after Madeleine, and today Vingegaard decided that you can win a mountain stage by making your first move with 20 seconds to go when there's a guy 10 seconds ahead of you.

Oh, and also having Simon Yates of all people drop back to bring back Vingegaard on the flat on Sunday. That's a burnt match Visma could have done with this week.

And yes, Vingegaard does have some influence on Visma's tactics, being the team leader and what not. It also wouldn't have hurt to assert more authority on the way the team is run when his star was at its zenith (both Pogacar and Van der Poel seem to have far stronger positions within their respective teams when it comes to both tactics and personnel), but that ship might have sailed.

Setting that aside, they also did very little in terms of trying to put Pogacar under pressure on a descent. You have a strong descender in your team with Jorgenson, Vingegaard is probably a bit better than Pogacar in this regard, Visma have successfully won a GC against Pogacar on a descent in the past and Pogacar is rather prone to being isolated in valleys without Almeida being there. It's the one area where Vingegaard's cards were at least somewhat better than Pogacar's, and therefore an area that should have been done more with.

Now it's not that unlikely that none of this would have ended up helping with the hand they had, but I don't think either Visma or Vingegaard did a great job playing said hand this Tour.

 

[Red Rick]

Hey, I don't tolerate any slander against Nibali in this thread

Nibali did great numbers even for 2022 and 2025.

 

[Devil's Elbow]

They're definitely looking more prone to fatigue than last year, when the watts missiles were dropping no matter how hard a stage was.

Heat, unexpectedly difficult first 2 hours, and maybe some some undereating because of that the unexpected difficulty may explain some of it. A fewof the guys also really blew up hard due to starting Hautacam too fast.

When nearly everyone drops terrible numbers for 2014, I just have to assume there's some unknown factors that are really poor for a high performance.

By your own logic (in bold), the factors that might have contributed to a slow Hautacam would not have mattered last year. So I don't see how your reasoning holds water.

 

[Red Rick]

By your own logic (in bold), the factors that might have contributed to a slow Hautacam would not have mattered last year. So I don't see how your reasoning holds water.

Yup. As I said I too am grasping for reasons. Hitting the climb straight after the descent is imo pretty bad for the numbers while having a longer flat section often helps the numbers especially if the group is slightly bigger and if the false flat is downhill.

Even today La Plagne was very fast despite riders all locking like ghosts.

 

[Gigs_98]

I command his commitment to the "ultra mythical stage wins only" policy

 

[Gobbo]

I'm just assuming you didn't watch the stage, otherwise your commentary makes no sense. Vingo did go all in on the Madeleine. That was clearly the plan, and it didn't work. Afterwards he was quite obviously tired, didn't really have the legs anymore to do anything. The fact that he barely finished ahead of Onley demonstrates this.

There's a lot of talk about tactics, Visma should have done this, Vingegaard should have done that... but in the end it's the legs that decide, and Pogacar is simply better. They've tried to drop him, on Ventoux, on the Madeleine, on a few other occasions, it hasn't worked. You can have all the tactics in the world, first you need to open up a gap to your opponent, and they haven't managed to do so. That's it.

The Armstrongs and the Horners I'm sure would all have concocted a wonderful tactic to beat Pogacar, but lucky for Pogacar they're just podcasters and not directeurs sportif otherwise Pogi wouldn't win a single race anymore.

Sure, I did watch the entire stage...

And yes, he did attack on the Madeleine, but I am still disappointed that he was so passive on the last climb. Of course you could be right about that he didn´t have the legs, but the fact is that he had told that he would go ALL IN for the victory and since he gave up after the Madeleine, that shows that in the reality he didn´t go all in, because as he started to feel that he was tired, he gave up.

I can follow what you say and partially I agree - yes, probably he didn´t quite have the legs at the end. But still he DID promise to go ALL IN, so therefore I think it is fair to make a comment like mine where I express a bit of disappointment by the fact that he gave up before the last big climb. At least I think he should have tried to attack Pogi 3-4-5 km´s from the finish line. Instead he waited until 1 km. before the end. What would he have risked if he had attacked 2-3 km´s before? Nothing, since his second place was already pretty much secure...

Also after the stage Vingegaard claimed that he felt very very well, so that indicates that maybe he could have tried a bit more at the end. Yes, he did have problems to get rid of Onley, but still he did beat Onley at the end, so he wasn´t THAT weak....

Again today Vingegaard was a bit to passive at the end, what allowed Arensman to win the race. Had Vingegaard attacked just 10-20 seconds before, he and Pogi would have catched up Arensman. Sure, we don´t know if Vingegaard could have beaten Pogi. Maybe not. But by waiting too long, he was sure that he would not catch up Arensman. So it was a pretty bad idea to wait so long.

Vingegaard overall has done a good Tour, but he has been to passive and defensive IMO to deserve a stage win. He should have been more coragious, but his carefull and defensive attitude probably costed him a stage win. But thumbs up to riders like Arensman, Healey and Abrahamsen who have been very agressive and coragious through the whole Tour and all were rewarded with stage wins.

 

[Gobbo]

What an incredibly boring cyclist

I don´t know if generally he is boring, but I agree that he should have been more coragious in this Tour. He was too passive on various ocasions where he had the chance to either win the stage or to test Pogi.

Of course it is NO SHAME to lose to Pogi who is better than Vingegaard. But it is a shame that he was so passive and didn´t try more to test Pogi or to win a stage. Yesterday he basically gave up after the Madeleine and today he just sat behind Pogi´s wheel, when he could maybe have won the stage by just helping Pogi at least a tiny little bit...

 

[Gobbo]

Once again, didn't watch the stage. Vingegaard did go all in, at about 80 k from the finish. What did you want him to do after that? Ride all through the valley with Pogi on his wheel?

To be honest he did go all in for five minutes on the madeleine. For the rest of the stage he sat behind his teammates that did the work for him at at pretty moderate pace sat by Yates. So I don´t agree with you if you think he could not have tried a little bit more. He attacked ONE time for five minutes on the madeleine and after that he attacked on the last km. after sitting on his teammates and UAE´s wheels for an hour where the pace was relatively slow. So slow that at least ten riders where able to stay in the group with Vingo and Pogi.

 

[Valv.Piti]

If Vingegaard doesnt go the Spain, its effectively a worthless season, but maybe Trine has the final say?

 

[Rou]

If Vingegaard doesnt go the Spain, its effectively a worthless season, but maybe Trine has the final say?

He'll be there but maybe she will be his roommate?

 

[jmdirt]

Incredible how you can say ,I‘m going to try‘ for GC and then not even try to win the stage in the final k. This has to be the saddest effort ever. Too afraid to lose nothing.

Or too exhausted...

 

[jmdirt]

Solid day JV!

Give it a go on Thesy tomorrow if you can!

 

[Red Rick]

I command his commitment to the "ultra mythical stage wins only" policy

No mountain sprinting allowed.

 

[YavorD]

Obviously the climb was not long enough for Jonas. He was going good, but.. but only if it was 500 metres longer..
Doesn't matter, longer climbs are still to come. The Tour isn't over yet. He doesn't care about the second place and he will try to win it.

 

[Cookster15]

Visma have successfully won a GC against Pogacar on a descent in the past

2022 Tour? Which stage was this? I tended to think Pogacar and Vingegaard are quite close on pure descending ability.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

2022 Tour? Which stage was this? I tended to think Pogacar and Vingegaard are quite close on pure descending ability.

2021 Itzulia, back then the TV pictures were still black and white.

 

[Didinho]

He really wanted the whole stage, too short now. He tired Pogi out today and tomorrow he’ll go from the first mountain. All Visma doms went easy today because they knew he wasn’t planning on doing anything and will be fresh tomorrow.

I’m just guessing. Trying to find an explanation. Hope for some more action tomorrow.

 

[Unchained]

If Vingegaard doesnt go the Spain, its effectively a worthless season, but maybe Trine has the final say?

Going to Spain might also carry great risks for Vingegaard and Remco if another quality 3 weeks can be pieced together by Pogacar..
Tadej is doing lots of stuff alone in France, Almeida and others will be at Vuelta to possibly further emasculate Remco and Ving..if they are going to Spain for redemption, confidence boost.. Looks like bad plan

 

[Jagartrott]

When you're paid a very high salary to basically focus on only 1 race - this one - then I think it's extremely disappointing that this is all we viewers got. He is supposed to fade less than Pogacar in a 3-week race, and that may be true, but he didn't really use this. He didn't really test how good Pogacar still was. Over 5 HC climbs the past 2 days, he attacked for about 2 km. 2!

To read here and elsewhere that "Vingegaard gave it his all" and "he couldn't have done more", that is properly mind-boggling to me.

 

[P4rthen0n]

Vingegaard has been trying everything, in every mountain stage since Hautacam, but Pogacar has never conceded anything.

But win or lose, Vingegaard can hold his head up high. He tried as best he can, better than everyone else.

 

[proffate]

When you're paid a very high salary to basically focus on only 1 race - this one - then I think it's extremely disappointing that this is all we viewers got.

Fair criticism if you are the CEO of Bigma. Are you?

 

[jmdirt]

When you're paid a very high salary to basically focus on only 1 race - this one - then I think it's extremely disappointing that this is all we viewers got. He is supposed to fade less than Pogacar in a 3-week race, and that may be true, but he didn't really use this. He didn't really test how good Pogacar still was. Over 5 HC climbs the past 2 days, he attacked for about 2 km. 2!

To read here and elsewhere that "Vingegaard gave it his all" and "he couldn't have done more", that is properly mind-boggling to me.

How do you, or any of us, know what's in his legs?

 

[Jagartrott]

The team was constantly blabbing about Jonas' biggest strength being his relative freshness in the 3rd week of a GC, they manage to isolate Pogacar twice from any teammates in the past two days to go man-to-man, but then basically nothing ensues - then I cannot comprehend how that would not be disappointing as a spectator. There was never any proper duel even though the opportunity was there, because Vingegaard didn't have the guts to really risk blowing up. If you're not willing to risk that, then don't tell the world the exact opposite. Walk the talk, or don't talk at all.

 

[Red Rick]

The team was constantly blabbing about Jonas' biggest strength being his relative freshness in the 3rd week of a GC, they manage to isolate him twice from any teammates in the past two days to go man-to-man, but then basically nothing ensues, then I cannot comprehend how that would not be disappointing as a spectator. There was never any proper duel even though the opportunity was there, because Vingegaard didn't have the guts to really risk blowing up. If you're not willing to risk that, then don't tell the world the exact opposite. Walk the talk, or don't talk at all.

The opportunity for a duel was there yesterday? What duel?

There was no opportunity for a GC duel because it was already lost, and the fight for the stage win was a chess game rather than a boxing match.

Both are natural outcomes.

 

[Jagartrott]

If Vingegaard doesnt go the Spain, its effectively a worthless season, but maybe Trine has the final say?

Perhaps there's a bathroom renovation coming up, so Jonas had better be prepared for that!