Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[CyclistAbi]

Is there anything we can do to make him ride the Giro next year? Tour is pretty pointless at this point isn't it?

At best he can do both, still it's the Tour on where he is expected to win.

 

[Red Rick]

So we can have 2 pointless GTs in a row?

I dunno plenty Pog fans prefer he skips the Vuelta to focus on the WC.

 

[jmdirt]

So this is what "risking 2nd place to gain 1st place" looks like?

I don't think so.

Maybe he was risking it all?

 

[jmdirt]

I am a bit disappointed. Jonas had kind of promised that he would go all in for the victory but instead he just sat on Pogi´s wheel and only attacked about 1 km. from the finish line. That didn´t exactly look like a guy who seriously believed that he could win the Tour de France. In my opinion, Jonas has settled for the second place and has sort of given up to win the Tour, even that he declares the opposite....

I am not disappointed that Jonas didn´t beat Pogi, but I am disappointed that he didn´t try it more, as he had promised that he would do. He rode in a very conservative way, just letting his teammates pull. He should have tried to go solo at least from 4-5 km. before the finish line - and probably even earlier.

How do you know that he had more to give? Maybe he doesn't?

EDIT: Quite a few posts assuming that JV had more to give. Maybe he was giving everything that he had today.

 

[bill1109]

I am a bit disappointed. Jonas had kind of promised that he would go all in for the victory but instead he just sat on Pogi´s wheel and only attacked about 1 km. from the finish line. That didn´t exactly look like a guy who seriously believed that he could win the Tour de France. In my opinion, Jonas has settled for the second place and has sort of given up to win the Tour, even that he declares the opposite....

I am not disappointed that Jonas didn´t beat Pogi, but I am disappointed that he didn´t try it more, as he had promised that he would do. He rode in a very conservative way, just letting his teammates pull. He should have tried to go solo at least from 4-5 km. before the finish line - and probably even earlier.

These guys always say all in ... Will risk everything to win.. yada yada. ... And yet they do exactly what it takes to keep second place. Don't forget. They need to shine fans on and most importantly they need to shine on sponsors .. that pay them for second place .. to get their contract for next year. Visma and Jonas know they can't win. They knew it before the tour de France. But they have to keep the salaries going and will say anything to do that. The tour isn't over, my levels are highest ever , yada yada. If say the same things if that is all it takes to keep salary for second place.

 

[bill1109]

These guys always say all in ... Will risk everything to win.. yada yada. ... And yet they do exactly what it takes to keep second place. Don't forget. They need to shine fans on and most importantly they need to shine on sponsors .. that pay them for second place .. to get their contract for next year. Visma and Jonas know they can't win. They knew it before the tour de France. But they have to keep the salaries going and will say anything to do that. The tour isn't over, my levels are highest ever , yada yada. If say the same things if that is all it takes to keep salary for second place.

Jonas etc will do everything to protect second place but will say they will risk everything for first place. This is the sentence and claim that they rehearse with their agent so that they get same salary. It's easy to see. Riders , ds, they all do the same thing. They have to make it sound like they are just a bad day away from winning the tour. If they can convince sponsor to pay them more next year for the daydream that they can cause that bad day of Pog then they justify their increased salary.

 

[Gobbo]

These guys always say all in ... Will risk everything to win.. yada yada. ... And yet they do exactly what it takes to keep second place. Don't forget. They need to shine fans on and most importantly they need to shine on sponsors .. that pay them for second place .. to get their contract for next year. Visma and Jonas know they can't win. They knew it before the tour de France. But they have to keep the salaries going and will say anything to do that. The tour isn't over, my levels are highest ever , yada yada. If say the same things if that is all it takes to keep salary for second place.

I guess you are right. Jonas was bluffing and knew all the time that he couldn´t get four minutes on Pogi, so his big words before the stage were just to please the fans and sponsors. The reality is that he didn´t have the legs to follow his plan and to attack Pogi on the last climb, so therefore he decided to put Yates in the front to pull at a very moderate pace....if he had had the legs to attack earlier, he would have put Kuss in the front instead of letting Yates pull relatively slowly for more or less half an hour...(but maybe also Kuss didn´t have the legs, I don´t know...)

What annoys me a bit is that the journalists didn´t ask him critical questions after the stage. Why did nobody ask Jonas why he was so passive on the last climb and waited to one km. before the finish to attack?

 

[Gobbo]

How do you know that he had more to give? Maybe he doesn't?

EDIT: Quite a few posts assuming that JV had more to give. Maybe he was giving everything that he had today.

It is possible, yes. Probably his tank was simply empty and that´s fair enough if he gave everything and couldn´t do more, of course.

But the thing that annoys me is that no journalist asked him after the race WHY he waited so long to attack, so we never really got any answer to our question. Was Jonas´tank empty and didn´t he have more to give? Or he just didn´t believe that he could beat Pogi and therefore gave up?...

 

[Ancalagon]

I think Jonas and Visma’s plan was to try and drop Pogi on the Madeleine, just to see if he was vulnerable. But once it became clear he wasn’t, the goal shifted to taking the stage win and locking down second place overall.

That would explain Jorgenson’s behavior before the Loze and Vingo’s passive attitude afterwards. I also believe Jonas was simply tired — he didn’t have the legs to launch an earlier attack on the Loze.

It all lines up with Visma’s overall strategy this Tour: they’ve been focused from day one on testing Pogi in the hope that he cracks like he did on the Loze in 2023. Hence all the attacks, in different terrains, spread out over the three weeks.

 

[Red Rick]

They're playing the long game. Make Pogacar mildly tired so he doesn't want to race Vuelta anymore.

 

[SHAD0W93]

They're playing the long game. Make Pogacar mildly tired so he doesn't want to race Vuelta anymore.

Live view of Pogacar at the end of the Tour.

View: https://youtu.be/PVtUlEcIoG4?si=SQ8xvDLMQVYzS_TO

 

[theyoungest]

I guess you are right. Jonas was bluffing and knew all the time that he couldn´t get four minutes on Pogi, so his big words before the stage were just to please the fans and sponsors. The reality is that he didn´t have the legs to follow his plan and to attack Pogi on the last climb, so therefore he decided to put Yates in the front to pull at a very moderate pace....if he had had the legs to attack earlier, he would have put Kuss in the front instead of letting Yates pull relatively slowly for more or less half an hour...(but maybe also Kuss didn´t have the legs, I don´t know...)

What annoys me a bit is that the journalists didn´t ask him critical questions after the stage. Why did nobody ask Jonas why he was so passive on the last climb and waited to one km. before the finish to attack?

I'm just assuming you didn't watch the stage, otherwise your commentary makes no sense. Vingo did go all in on the Madeleine. That was clearly the plan, and it didn't work. Afterwards he was quite obviously tired, didn't really have the legs anymore to do anything. The fact that he barely finished ahead of Onley demonstrates this.

There's a lot of talk about tactics, Visma should have done this, Vingegaard should have done that... but in the end it's the legs that decide, and Pogacar is simply better. They've tried to drop him, on Ventoux, on the Madeleine, on a few other occasions, it hasn't worked. You can have all the tactics in the world, first you need to open up a gap to your opponent, and they haven't managed to do so. That's it.

The Armstrongs and the Horners I'm sure would all have concocted a wonderful tactic to beat Pogacar, but lucky for Pogacar they're just podcasters and not directeurs sportif otherwise Pogi wouldn't win a single race anymore.

 

[Ancalagon]

I'm just assuming you didn't watch the stage, otherwise your commentary makes no sense. Vingo did go all in on the Madeleine. That was clearly the plan, and it didn't work. Afterwards he was quite obviously tired, didn't really have the legs anymore to do anything. The fact that he barely finished ahead of Onley demonstrates this.

There's a lot of talk about tactics, Visma should have done this, Vingegaard should have done that... but in the end it's the legs that decide, and Pogacar is simply better. They've tried to drop him, on Ventoux, on the Madeleine, on a few other occasions, it hasn't worked. You can have all the tactics in the world, first you need to open up a gap to your opponent, and they haven't managed to do so. That's it.

The Armstrongs and the Horners I'm sure would all have concocted a wonderful tactic to beat Pogacar, but lucky for Pogacar they're just podcasters and not directeurs sportif otherwise Pogi wouldn't win a single race anymore.

It’s wild how many commentators and pundits still act like “smart tactics” are enough to beat or even endanger someone like Pogacar.

When a rider simply can’t be dropped, no tactic is going to work.

If Visma had two Vingegaards, sure — that could create real pressure and force Pogi into hard choices with rolling attacks (which VLAB was kind of hoping for with Jorgenson early in the Tour).
But let’s be honest — that’s pure science fiction.

 

[hayneplane]

It’s wild how many commentators and pundits still act like “smart tactics” are enough to beat or even endanger someone like Pogacar.

When a rider simply can’t be dropped, no tactic is going to work.

If Visma had two Vingegaards, sure — that could create real pressure and force Pogi into hard choices with rolling attacks (which VLAB was kind of hoping for with Jorgenson early in the Tour).
But let’s be honest — that’s pure science fiction.

UAE with Pogacar vs La Vie Claire 85/86 if Hinault and Lemond rode with united tactics would be an interesting spectacle especially with the presence of a serious home contender.

 

[TrekCyclist]

I fear same procedure as every day:
Expect: Vingegaard to go all in early.
Get: one acceleration within the last 4km

 

[theyoungest]

I fear same procedure as every day:
Expect: Vingegaard to go all in early.
Get: one acceleration within the last 4km

Once again, didn't watch the stage. Vingegaard did go all in, at about 80 k from the finish. What did you want him to do after that? Ride all through the valley with Pogi on his wheel?

 

[Rackham]

Once again, didn't watch the stage. Vingegaard did go all in, at about 80 k from the finish. What did you want him to do after that? Ride all through the valley with Pogi on his wheel?

To be fair he hasn't cultivated his rivalry with Pog particularly effectively over the years. There's been too many instances where he sat on Pog's wheel and marked him when he had the legs to do a few pulls. Point being: yesterday he could absolutely have found himself in a mano-à-mano versus Pog over the summit of the Madeleine and gone all in.

And despite what anyone might think about Pog (love, hate, neutral or absolutely nothing) he's a rider who has demonstrated he does actually ride even when it would tactically make more sense not to. I mean he swapped turns with VdP in Roubaix just because of 'racing'. So Pog would have really poisoned Vinge's attack yesterday if he'd gone on the Madeleine because the history between them isn't great but there's a parallel universe in which both get on much better and actually swapped turns - at which point it could have been a stage for the ages.

Cycling is a funny and ironic sport like that. Almost every sport out there benefits from having rivals locked in a death match of mutual loathing - except cycling because a lot of the time these rival riders really do have to cooperate otherwise they risk stinking up the spectacle.

 

[hayneplane]

Once again, didn't watch the stage. Vingegaard did go all in, at about 80 k from the finish. What did you want him to do after that? Ride all through the valley with Pogi on his wheel?

He went sort of all in for about 1km until he hooked up to the back wheel of Jorgensen and then never left that wheel the rest of the climb.

 

[theyoungest]

He went sort of all in for about 1km until he hooked up to the back wheel of Jorgensen and then never left that wheel the rest of the climb.

Yeah, because he knew he wasn't able to drop Pogi so what's the point of riding 70 k with Pogi on your wheel.

To be fair he hasn't cultivated his rivalry with Pog particularly effectively over the years. There's been too many instances where he sat on Pog's wheel and marked him when he had the legs to do a few pulls. Point being: yesterday he could absolutely have found himself in a mano-à-mano versus Pog over the summit of the Madeleine and gone all in.

No, actually Pogi seems to have learned from past mistakes and doesn't pull when it doesn't really benefit him. He rode all of the Ventoux on Vingegaard's wheel and sprinted away at the end. If Vingo would have done anything remotely similar, the internet would have been out for blood...

Roubaix is like a playground for him, just a little side hustle if you like. He's not afraid to bonk there. In the Tour he is.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Taking Pogačar with him over Madeleine and pulling with him afterwards would definitely have earned him more praise. However, since what he did do zapped him of energy, it wouldn't have been very smart to do. His comments about wanting to risk it all have been taken way too litterally by some people. There was no way him and the team would ever risk throwing all their hard work away for a very, very slim chance of gaining time.

They probably hoped to have riders up the road after Madeleine, but since that didn't happen and Vingegaard wasn't as powerful as Poseidon on the day, a non UAE stage win was the best possible result in the end.

 

[Rackham]

No, actually Pogi seems to have learned from past mistakes and doesn't pull when it doesn't really benefit him. He rode all of the Ventoux on Vingegaard's wheel and sprinted away at the end. If Vingo would have done anything remotely similar, the internet would have been out for blood...

It's pretty clear that the gap to the breakaway was way too small for Vinge's plan to work yesterday. And who's to blame for that? Visma of course. They're the ones who pulled.

Vingegaard basically needed to break Pog on the Madeleine with a satellite rider up the road. In the end he gave himself a few hundred meters to drop Pog because once they hooked up with the Jorgenson group there was no way to make the plan work.

It's Visma's really hard pull which closed the breakaway down before the attack that really ensured the plan would fail. He should have just let UAE dictate a tempo with the Jorgenson group 2-3 minutes up the road and then launch it towards the summit. That would have given him a few km's to Hail Mary something into existence.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

They're playing the long game. Make Pogacar mildly tired so he doesn't want to race Vuelta anymore.

Not that long. Vingo might still want to attack on that Champs Elysees hill, given his great explosivity and softened Pogacar's legs. He will get the yellow jersey then and repeat Jean Robic's feat.

 

[Skalman]

What an incredibly boring cyclist

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Incredible how you can say ,I‘m going to try‘ for GC and then not even try to win the stage in the final k. This has to be the saddest effort ever. Too afraid to lose nothing.

 

[Red Rick]

Perfect race today. Unironically. 10/10.