Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[YavorD]

More than half his domestiques raced the Giro and one did a heavy spring campaign. Who are the ''several'' domestiques that got injured? Niermann is this you?

To be honest for a domestique doing the Giro isn't a huge problem.
As for "one did a heavy spring*, Almeida's schedule was heavier thar Jorgenson and still has more racing day than him, despite not even completing half the Tour.

 

[Boehmand]

All the reasonings and excuses made for Vingegaard not riding Worlds are bs imo.

Not going to Worlds is either cowardice or selfishness, no matter what other labels you want to throw at it.

 

[Netserk]

From what I can gather it only seems to be the case that Vingegaard has said so in conversations with the Danish national coach.

(https://www.feltet.dk/nyheder/vingegaard_skal_koere_vm/10831147 google translate:
The reports from both the Danish Tour de France winner and his Visma | Lease A Bike team have long pointed to it, and now it is clear: Jonas Vingegaard will race the World Championships in Rwanda at the end of September.

This is what national coach Michael Mørkøv said in an interview with 'Mandsholdet' .

The Field has also been in contact with Mørkøv, who confirms that Vingegaard has signed up for the World Championships in September.

- That's been the plan all along (ed). When I spoke to Jonas last winter, he expressed that he was motivated for the World Cup. It's clear that there are many tasks ahead, and it's not like you pick the team at the start of the season.

- But Jonas is at a point in his career where he has his eyes set on the championships. It's a World Championship that's right up his alley, so it's clear that he's interested in racing it if it fits.

And Vingegaard can rightly have rainbow-striped dreams, the national coach believes.

- It suits him really well. One of the key points is of course that it is at altitude. It is something he has shown in the past that he is really good at with his body composition. Then there are a lot of altitude meters, which makes it a tough race. So I think it is a good route for Jonas.

Announcement:

- Although where he has performed best in the past is on the longer, steeper climbs. But you can sum it up that Jonas is one of the world's best cyclists, and he will be on that route too.

The World Championships are taking place on the African continent for the first time, with the Rwandan capital, Kigali, providing the backdrop for the race.

A city located at an altitude of 1,500 meters.

One could imagine that training in the thin air would be an advantage. But Vingegaard does not have that opportunity, as he is racing the Tour of Spain shortly before the World Championships.

- Those are the conditions. If you're riding in the Vuelta, there's not really an opportunity to train at altitude before that. But I also believe that the Vuelta will be good preparation for the World Championships, and I think that riders like Jonas are well exposed to performing at altitude. That must be good for him.

- With Jonas - and the high level he has - I think he will be razor sharp after three weeks in the Vuelta.



Also,
"I absolutely think he does (ride in Rwanda ed.). He has expressed that he has it as one of his season goals. It is a route that suits him. It is a rider in his prime. He is perhaps the only one in the world who can beat the defending world champion Tadej Pogacar," explains Danish national coach Morkov, in comments to Feltet.dk. "So all the arrows point in the direction that Jonas wants to ride the World Championships."

"All the arrows point in the direction that Jonas wants to ride the World Championship" - Danish coach Michael Morkov expect Vingegaard in Rwanda

Having focused heavily on stage races during his career so far, Jonas Vingegaard is yet to make an appearance racing in the colours of the Danish national team at a World Championships, a European Cha...

cyclinguptodate.com

That doesn't confirm the contested claim.

 

[Pozzovivo]

That doesn't confirm the contested claim.

Never did I argue that it did.

 

[Netserk]

Never did I argue that it did.

As per my previous request, this source also doesn't say that Vingegaard had said so.

 

[Pozzovivo]

As per my previous request, this source also doesn't say that Vingegaard had said so.

No, not literally, but it’s the closest thing to an actual statement from Vingegaard. According to the national coach, Vingegaard told him that the World Championships was one of his season goals. Of course, the coach could be lying or misinterpreting what Vingegaard actually said, but it essentially amounts to the same thing unless you distrust the coach.

 

[pelotonIQ]

To be honest for a domestique doing the Giro isn't a huge problem.
As for "one did a heavy spring*, Almeida's schedule was heavier thar Jorgenson and still has more racing day than him, despite not even completing half the Tour.

What UAE brought is irrelevant, this is about Visma not giving their main man peak shape domestiques,

 

[SHAD0W93]

More than half his domestiques raced the Giro and one did a heavy spring campaign. Who are the ''several'' domestiques that got injured? Niermann is this you?

3 of the 7 races the Giro, everyone else rode a similar schedule as previous years. The big disappointment was WVA and Jorgenson falling apart otherwise Visma was great and set Vingegaard up for success plenty of times, he just wasn’t strong enough. The team was similar to the other years, they just rode against a stronger opponent and wore their own riders out.


2022 - 163 race days
Van Hooydonck - 23 race days including PN, MSR, E3, GW, RVV, AGR, and PR
Van Aert - 22 race days including PN, MSR, GW, LBL, CdD
Laporte - 15 race days including PN, MSR, E3, GW, RVV, AGR, PR, and CdD
Kuss - 27 race days including VaC, TotBC, and CdD
Kruijswijk - 31 race days including PN, VaC, TdRc and CdD
Benoot - 19 race days including SB, E3, GW, RVV, AGR, FW, LBL, and CdD
Roglic - 26 race days including PN, MSR, TotBC, and CdD

2023 - 157 race days
Van Hooydonck - 23 race days including PN, MSR, E3, GW, RVV, PR, CdD
Van Baarle - 19 race days including TA, E3, PR, CdD
Van Aert - 22 race days including TA, MSR, E3, GW, RVV, PR, TdS
Laporte - 16 race days including MSR, E3, RVV, PR, and CdD
Kuss - 35 race days including VaC and GdI
Kelderman- 16 race days including TA and TdS
Benoot - 26 race days including SB, TA, E3, RVV, AGR, FW, LBL, and CdD

2024 - 171 race days
Van Aert - 16 race days including E3
Tratnik- 39 race days including E3, GW, TdR, and GdI
Lemmen - 38 race days including SB, VaC, TdR, and CdD
Laporte - 14 race days including SB, MSR, PR, and GdI
Kelderman - 20 race days including PN and TdS
Jorgenson - 22 race days PN, E3, RVV, AGR, and CdD
Benoot - 22 race days including E3, GW, RVV, AMG, FW, LBL and CdD

2025 - 203 race days
Yates - 35 race days including TA, VaC, and GdI
Van Aert - 35 race days including E3, RVV, PR, AGR, and GdI
Kuss - 27 race days including VaC, TotBC, and CdD
Jorgenson - 22 race days including PN, E3, GW, RVV, and CdD
Campenaerts - 25 race days including PN, MSR, GW, TotBC, and CdD
Benoot - 24 race days including E3, GW, RVV, AGR, FW, LBL, and TdS
Affini - 35 race days including PN, E3, RVV, PR, and GdI

 

[Oldman]

More than half his domestiques raced the Giro and one did a heavy spring campaign. Who are the ''several'' domestiques that got injured? Niermann is this you?

Read back on CN. They'll have the pre-Tour list for JV and probably every other team. Or just look at what Shadow kindly put together.
Missing? Jonas' number of race days.

 

[Red Rick]

Let's think about this more holistically. Vingegaard is a pure stage racer, and the only reason he even contemplates racing the World Championships because it's after his main goals oft the season. So all preperation naturally goes into first the Tour de France, and once you finish the Tour de France you start planning and training towards the Vuelta. It's very likely Vingegaard and Visma come to the conclusion that it's unlikely for him to do a great Vuelta, and to then recover in time and do a great WC.

Vingegaard has nothing to gain by going to the WC, apart from a participation medal, and he doesn't owe it to anyone either. So it's baffling to me to see how much criticism he receives for skipping a race where he's extremely unlikely to do well in, including by posters who also keep saying Vingegaard is *** at one day races.

In addition, he's racing the full season, winning Algarve in February, then gets a concussion in Paris-Nice, before going very hard in the Dauphine before the Tour already. He's gonna end the season with the most race days out of all the top riders.

Meanwhile, Pogacar gets 0 criticism for skipping the Vuelta, a race he can win. Van Aert gets 0 criticism for riding a meme schedule after the Tour, and generally ghosting most of the season after a few 4th places at the cobbles. Van der Poel ghosts every Tour and it's considered normal by just about everybody. Evenepoel gets to ragequit the TdF and the Vuelta is never even a discussion.

 

[Rou]

Meanwhile, Pogacar gets 0 criticism for skipping the Vuelta, a race he can win.

Good to see you back, Rick. I agree with you. Jonas already pointed out his two main goals in January - TDF and Vuelta.
As a Pogacar fan to see him skip the Vuelta is a pill I won't swallow and I don't give a damn about him farming in Canada and Italy for more wins.

 

[HashRouge]

Let's think about this more holistically. Vingegaard is a pure stage racer, and the only reason he even contemplates racing the World Championships because it's after his main goals oft the season. So all preperation naturally goes into first the Tour de France, and once you finish the Tour de France you start planning and training towards the Vuelta. It's very likely Vingegaard and Visma come to the conclusion that it's unlikely for him to do a great Vuelta, and to then recover in time and do a great WC.

Vingegaard has nothing to gain by going to the WC, apart from a participation medal, and he doesn't owe it to anyone either. So it's baffling to me to see how much criticism he receives for skipping a race where he's extremely unlikely to do well in, including by posters who also keep saying Vingegaard is *** at one day races.

In addition, he's racing the full season, winning Algarve in February, then gets a concussion in Paris-Nice, before going very hard in the Dauphine before the Tour already. He's gonna end the season with the most race days out of all the top riders.

Meanwhile, Pogacar gets 0 criticism for skipping the Vuelta, a race he can win. Van Aert gets 0 criticism for riding a meme schedule after the Tour, and generally ghosting most of the season after a few 4th places at the cobbles. Van der Poel ghosts every Tour and it's considered normal by just about everybody. Evenepoel gets to ragequit the TdF and the Vuelta is never even a discussion.

Agree with all of this, although Remco definitely got criticised for "ragequitting" the Tour, and gets criticised for pretty much everything he ever does.

I think some posters clearly view the WC as a matter of national pride - as Denmark's best climber, he ought to go and represent his country, even if he doesn't win. Whereas Vingegaard seems to be viewing it more from a racing perspective and has clearly decided that he won't be competitive enough to make it worthwhile. I feel like that's fair enough given that he doesn't do a lot of one day races and will be fatigued after Tour-Vuelta. It's obvious that the Tour-Vuelta-WC combo is actually really hard to do - Pogacar has decided to prioritise the WC, whereas Vingegaard has decided to prioritise the Vuelta. I think both decisions are fair. Vingegaard also has a really good chance of winning all three GTs before Pogacar, if he wins the Vuelta this year and then goes to the Giro next year.

 

[Red Rick]

Agree with all of this, although Remco definitely got criticised for "ragequitting" the Tour, and gets criticised for pretty much everything he ever does.

I think some posters clearly view the WC as a matter of national pride - as Denmark's best climber, he ought to go and represent his country, even if he doesn't win. Whereas Vingegaard seems to be viewing it more from a racing perspective and has clearly decided that he won't be competitive enough to make it worthwhile. I feel like that's fair enough given that he doesn't do a lot of one day races and will be fatigued after Tour-Vuelta. It's obvious that the Tour-Vuelta-WC combo is actually really hard to do - Pogacar has decided to prioritise the WC, whereas Vingegaard has decided to prioritise the Vuelta. I think both decisions are fair. Vingegaard also has a really good chance of winning all three GTs before Pogacar, if he wins the Vuelta this year and then goes to the Giro next year.

It's also important to note that he did commit to the European championships. It's obviously way less prestigious, but it's a one day race on a route that's reasonably difficult enough, and it actually fits in the schedule much better.

I think if the WC had not been in Rwanda with the logistical issues that come with that, I would expect him to at least show up, and quite likely just be bad there.

And if there was more time inbetween, I think there would be a good argument for just taking a shot at the TT rather than the road race.

 

[Netserk]

No, not literally, but it’s the closest thing to an actual statement from Vingegaard. According to the national coach, Vingegaard told him that the World Championships was one of his season goals. Of course, the coach could be lying or misinterpreting what Vingegaard actually said, but it essentially amounts to the same thing unless you distrust the coach.

I think you missed some context.

Please provide a source where he states it's a bigger goal than the Vuelta or words to that effect.

He literally said the main targets are the Tour and the Vuelta.
What are you talking about?

 

[Pozzovivo]

where he's extremely unlikely to do well in,

Vingegaard would be 3rd favorite for this course behind Pog and Remco in the markets. Pretty confident of that.

 

[pelotonIQ]

3 of the 7 races the Giro, everyone else rode a similar schedule as previous years. The big disappointment was WVA and Jorgenson falling apart otherwise Visma was great and set Vingegaard up for success plenty of times, he just wasn’t strong enough. The team was similar to the other years, they just rode against a stronger opponent and wore their own riders out.


2022 - 163 race days
Van Hooydonck - 23 race days including PN, MSR, E3, GW, RVV, AGR, and PR
Van Aert - 22 race days including PN, MSR, GW, LBL, CdD
Laporte - 15 race days including PN, MSR, E3, GW, RVV, AGR, PR, and CdD
Kuss - 27 race days including VaC, TotBC, and CdD
Kruijswijk - 31 race days including PN, VaC, TdRc and CdD
Benoot - 19 race days including SB, E3, GW, RVV, AGR, FW, LBL, and CdD
Roglic - 26 race days including PN, MSR, TotBC, and CdD

2023 - 157 race days
Van Hooydonck - 23 race days including PN, MSR, E3, GW, RVV, PR, CdD
Van Baarle - 19 race days including TA, E3, PR, CdD
Van Aert - 22 race days including TA, MSR, E3, GW, RVV, PR, TdS
Laporte - 16 race days including MSR, E3, RVV, PR, and CdD
Kuss - 35 race days including VaC and GdI
Kelderman- 16 race days including TA and TdS
Benoot - 26 race days including SB, TA, E3, RVV, AGR, FW, LBL, and CdD

2024 - 171 race days
Van Aert - 16 race days including E3
Tratnik- 39 race days including E3, GW, TdR, and GdI
Lemmen - 38 race days including SB, VaC, TdR, and CdD
Laporte - 14 race days including SB, MSR, PR, and GdI
Kelderman - 20 race days including PN and TdS
Jorgenson - 22 race days PN, E3, RVV, AGR, and CdD
Benoot - 22 race days including E3, GW, RVV, AMG, FW, LBL and CdD

2025 - 203 race days
Yates - 35 race days including TA, VaC, and GdI
Van Aert - 35 race days including E3, RVV, PR, AGR, and GdI
Kuss - 27 race days including VaC, TotBC, and CdD
Jorgenson - 22 race days including PN, E3, GW, RVV, and CdD
Campenaerts - 25 race days including PN, MSR, GW, TotBC, and CdD
Benoot - 24 race days including E3, GW, RVV, AGR, FW, LBL, and TdS
Affini - 35 race days including PN, E3, RVV, PR, and GdI

Nice list that only proves my point. A key ingredient for Jonas previous two Tour wins was having a team in super shape and for Visma to give Jonas the best chance at beating Pogacar he needs to have domestiques in peak condition. Racing Giros and all of the spring classics, believe it or not, takes away from team strength.

And this is me, I root for Pogacar and I can put rivalry aside and acknowledge Visma didn't do enough for their man. They didn't put all the eggs in one basket for the Tour. If I'm Jonas and realize this and I know other teams are dying to sign a good GC rider I know where I'm going.

 

[Pozzovivo]

I think you missed some context.

I think you are just moving the goalpost here. The disputed claim was whether WC was a season goal for Vingegaard and that he intended to race it. Which the danish national coach confirmed in media after speaking to Vingegaard directly.

@Cycling111 said: But he said it was his second goal of the season after the Tour. In preseason, he said his goals were the Tour and the World Championship. It's not like he's skipping the race like he did in Catalunya. This was one of his two main goals.
You respond:

Please provide a source where he states it's a bigger goal than the Vuelta or words to that effect.

@Cycling111 said: It's not what the fans want. This year, it was Vingegaard who was saying he'd go to the World Championships.
In fact, during preseason, he said his goals were Tour and WC

Please provide a source.

Anyway...

 

[Red Rick]

Vingegaard would be 3rd favorite for this course behind Pog and Remco in the markets. Pretty confident of that.

And Vingegaard himself would very happily bet against himself in that case.

 

[Pozzovivo]

And Vingegaard himself would very happily bet against himself in that case.

As he has shown multiple times in the early tour stages, he's the only threat to Pogacar in these kind of races. Explain logically why he can perform at that level on the first stage or stages in stage races but can't in a one day race.

Of course he is one of the best hilly one-day racers in the world if he prioritized that.

 

[Peyroteo94]

As he has shown multiple times in the early tour stages, he's the only threat to Pogacar in these kind of races. Explain logically why he can perform at that level on the first stage or stages in stage races but can't in a one day race.

Of course he is one of the best hilly one-day racers in the world if he prioritized that.

Tell me when and where he raced 6 hours against Pogacar in a first stage?

 

[tobydawq]

It's also important to note that he did commit to the European championships. It's obviously way less prestigious, but it's a one day race on a route that's reasonably difficult enough, and it actually fits in the schedule much better.

The worst part is that he then already now decides to not stick around for Lombardia six days later.

 

[YavorD]

What UAE brought is irrelevant, this is about Visma not giving their main man peak shape domestiques,

But as I said, having a Giro in your legs isn't a massive problem for the domestiques. Kuss had the Giro in 2023 and he was still amazing.
Jorgenson had the same schedule as last year and he was okay back then. He was very good in the first 2 weeks, until he got sick.
Yates' level was also very good.
Van Aert's general level recently (at least as a helper) isn't very high, so his performance isn't down to the Giro.
Affini did his job.

You can criticise the overall level of the team, if you want, but you can't blame the schedules for that. And of course it matters what UAE brought. If Visma has the better team anyway, it's up to Vingegaard to drop Pogacar.

 

[Netserk]

The disputed claim was whether WC was a season goal for Vingegaard and that he intended to race it

You didn't make the claim not did you dispute it. You are not in a position to tell me what I disputed. Look at the context of the exchange in this thread and the full extent of the exchange, and it's clear that you are now insisting on your own assumptions. It's okay to wander in and misunderstand what's going on, but at least be the least bit humble.

None of what Mørkøv has said supported the disputed claim. I was of course well aware of that when I asked for a source.

 

[Netserk]

Yates' level was also very good.

Eh, I don't think so. But I also blame the team for how he was used.

I think he should have rested far more (like Kuss), and after Soulor already it should've been clear that he was worse than Kuss and had to pull before him.

 

[YavorD]

Eh, I don't think so. But I also blame the team for how he was used.

I think he should have rested far more (like Kuss), and after Soulor already it should've been clear that he was worse than Kuss and had to pull before him.

Yes, I can agree on Yates' usage.
But then again, his level throughout the year, except for Finestre (and perhaps San Valentino), wasn't very impressive, so I don't put his performance down to the Giro.

And even then, his level was high enough to be 5th in the train, which might've been enough if Jorgenson didn't get sick.