Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard thread: Love in Iberia

[Salvarani]

I think he knew far in advance it wouldn't be feasable to be good here so he opted out of Rwanda, said yes to the Euro's to appease the national coach and checked the "represent Denmark" off his list.

It's not like Almeida, who was his main rival in the Vuelta, set the world on fire at this Euro's.

For Rwanda he could have still kept the form and not go home to sit on the couch, that was his first mistake. Kind of shocking to turn down the chance at Rwanda to do this here at Euros. He shouldnt do something only to appease, I think showing up like this makes him look bad. It would have been better to have been honest that he didnt want to race WC or EC, even though that decision is disappointing from a rider like him.

Almeida was sick and withdrew shortly before the ITT because of feeling under the weather. He said he was unsure on his chances before the road race because of it. I think that is different, rather than someone who did not prepare and didnt really want to race from the beginning.

 

[Cycling111]

In that sense, he's just like Froome. In one-day races, he wasn't even one of the top 50 riders. It's curious, because other riders, even though they're not in their best race, still doing decent performances.

Maybe it's because he suffers from a mental disconnect outside of stage races. He can't just suddenly be so physically mediocre.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I think he knew far in advance it wouldn't be feasable to be good here so he opted out of Rwanda, said yes to the Euro's to appease the national coach and checked the "represent Denmark" off his list.

It's not like Almeida, who was his main rival in the Vuelta, set the world on fire at this Euro's.

Yes, he did the EC to please the Denmark coach after skipping Rwanda (which was logistically too complicated to bother in his current form).

 

[Krzysztof_O]

In that sense, he's just like Froome. In one-day races, he wasn't even one of the top 50 riders. It's curious, because other riders, even though they're not in their best race, still doing decent performances.

Just give him Tour legs and he won't be distanced in the middle of a mountainous race, will he? It was 100% form reason yesterday (not race specificity). I still see him as a contender in hilly/mountainous one-day races if his form allows. His problem might be maintaining intensity in a 250 km race but after this year's early stages at Tour/Dauphine there should be no doubts that he can handle shorter hilly races very well.

 

[Cycling111]

Just give him Tour legs and he won't be distanced in the middle of a mountainous race, will he? It was 100% form reason yesterday (not race specificity). I still see him as a contender in hilly/mountainous one-day races if his form allows. His problem might be maintaining intensity in a 250 km race but after this year's early stages at Tour/Dauphine there should be no doubts that he can handle shorter hilly races very well.

But there are many riders whose class is still evident even if they're not in shape, and they don't always fall behind a pack of 80 in the same one-day races.

Vingegaard's results in Liège and Lombardy are very mediocre. Only a top-20 finish in Liège is a classy result. It's not something exceptional yesterday.
Froome was similar in all those one-day races.

Vingegaard wasn't in shape in Algarve, but he won the race with the bare minimum.

The curious thing is that yesterday's performance wasn't exceptional. 90% of his one-day races have been disastrous.
Liège is in a period of the season where Vingegaard usually performs well in a stage race, but not in Liège 🤔. It's curious.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

But there are many riders whose class is still evident even if they're not in shape, and they don't always fall behind a pack of 80 in the same one-day races.

Vingegaard's results in Liège and Lombardy are very mediocre. Only a top-20 finish in Liège is a classy result. It's not something exceptional yesterday.
Froome was similar in all those one-day races.

Vingegaard wasn't in shape in the Algarve, but he won the race with the bare minimum.

Vingegaard never really peaked for one-day races (keep in mind that he won one in this area a few years back though). He simply prioritized stage-races (his strongest side) but he showed great level in high-intensity early "classics" stages of the Tour/Dauphine, being on par with the best classics riders: Pogacar and MVP.

Maybe Liege and Lombardy are indeed too long for him but I'd like to see him prepared well for them at least once (he should take a shot at Fleche + Liege one season). I see no reason for him not to be a contender in a 200-km long hilly/mountainous race.

 

[Cycling111]

Vingegaard never really peaked for one-day races (keep in mind that he won one in this area a few years back though). He simply prioritized stage-races (his strongest side) but he showed great level in high-intensity early "classics" stages of the Tour/Dauphine, being on par with the best classics riders: Pogacar and MVP.

Maybe Liege and Lombardy are indeed too long for him but I'd like to see him prepared well for them at least once (he should take a shot at Fleche + Liege one season). I see no reason for him not to be a contender in a 200-km long hilly/mountainous race.

But Liège is during a period in which he's in good shape, and his results are still very poor.

The top 20 was in Lombardy; I wrote it wrong

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Not really strange. I actually expected his poor showing. He has zero form right now, 3 weeks after completing exhausting GT double. He said he was too tired to train and prepare properly for this one.

In that case it was without a question a pick by Mørkøv at amateurism level.

 

[Peter von]

In that case it was without a question a pick by Mørkøv at amateurism level.

Idk about that, did he leave anyone out who would have top 10'ed?

It's not like he killed Skjelmose helping Vingegaard or anything. He just picked a lottery ticket that could podium if he got very lucky, instead of someone who could have made a top 10 if he was equally lucky.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Idk about that, did he leave anyone out who would have top 10'ed?

It's not like he killed Skjelmose helping Vingegaard or anything. He just picked a lottery ticket that could podium if he got very lucky, instead of someone who could have made a top 10 if he was equally lucky.

Picks of lottery tickets is amateurism and way too lazy take by a national coach. And a big insult to riders excluded in the short list, really having it as a serious dream. And not just as a vacation ride without professional preparations.

 

[Cycling111]

Picks of lottery tickets is amateurism and way too lazy take by a national coach. And a big insult to riders excluded in the short list, really having it as a serious dream. And not just as a vacation ride without professional preparations.

Well, let's not be naive either. We know how condescending sports are toward stars. Vingegaard isn't just another rider in Denmark, and he'll always have a place reserved for him in the national team even if he can't even walk. And the restwon't be offended by it.
If Remco or Pogacar want to participate one day with a cast in their national teams, they will be allowed to.

Is it unfair? But when an athlete achieves a certain status, we know they usually have more leeway because they've earned the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Well, let's not be naive either. We know how condescending sports are toward stars. Vingegaard isn't just another rider in Denmark, and he'll always have a place reserved for him in the national team even if he can't even walk. And the restwon't be offended by it.
If Remco or Pogacar want to participate one day with a cast in their national teams, they will be allowed to.

Is it unfair? But when an athlete achieves a certain status, we know they usually have more leeway because they've earned the benefit of the doubt..

This isn't a celebrity miss world contest.

Through cycling history several big patrons have been persona non grata at big championships.

OK, so very rarely ditched by the national coach, except for a few delicate situations, but feedback from the riders themselves about maybe only at 85% and if of no use for other riders, writing themselves off the list.

If Remco or Pogaçar put themselves up for a start number they make sure to know exactly where their body health and shape is, and prepare the body for a huge challenge.

Pogi admitted that the Canadian classics and multible jetlag, going directly into the Rwanda 25 ITT at altitude, was a bad idea.
But at least he had some races before the championships, knowing exactly where his form was, compared to his competitors.

On the contrary;
IF he'd been completely off his bike for a couple of weeks followed by a single week of a few solo training rides in flat terrains, you'd be sure he wouldn't have become 4th in the WC ITT rankings - or won two significant RR championships, within just one week. Not even if you're Pog-Man and normally eats everything.

You don't do that without maintaining your shape.

In general, I like Vingegaard and think his fragile family spirit vs. a tough man's world is likeable and I don't like to be patronizing towards him.

I think many more well-known personalities feel the same way and are indulgent towards him.

But it's different to me when we're speaking championships and national squids.

Where the riders gets a single chance a year.

And here I like to see riders in top form on the shortlist and very much like surprises in between. And with Jonas' nation's talent pool, I think it's a direct insult.

I'm also sure that this was a huge lesson for Mørkøv and Jonas and that we will not witness this again.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I think Vingegaard just doesn't believe he can win, which means he isn't properly motivated, which means he isn't properly prepared, which further fuels his lack of belief that he can't win, which also gets in the way of performing at the level he is capable of, which is definitely better than he has displayed.

 

[Danskebjerge]

When you let go of the gas pedal, you'll still have something left to bring you forward. But you're decelerating, so you want to spend the force you've built up very soon.

It seems Vingegaard had a window right after the Vuelta, but saying no to Rwanda and saying yes to the EC a week later was probably the wrong way of doing things. The gap between Madrid and France was too big. (According to Michael Rasmussen - who is extremely critical of Vingegaard's handling of the EC - it was even visible on Vingegaard's body that he had gained weight since the Vuelta.)

However, in the broader perspective, I kind of find it reassuring that Vingegaard's level dropped after his GT win. It corresponds nicely to what would generally be expected from a top rider who has fought for the GC win in two consecutive three week long stage races. It's Pogacar (and to some extent Evenepoel) that has made us believe that you can compete at your highest level both in spring, summer and fall. In the old (and perhaps more credible) days, it would be regarded as perfectly normal that a rider's top form lasted 2-3 months. Thus, Vingegaard's failure at the European Championship might just show us that he's human.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

When you let go of the gas pedal, you'll still have something left to bring you forward. But you're decelerating, so you want to spend the force you've built up very soon.

It seems Vingegaard had a window right after the Vuelta, but saying no to Rwanda and saying yes to the EC a week later was probably the wrong way of doing things. The gap between Madrid and France was too big. (According to Michael Rasmussen - who is extremely critical of Vingegaard's handling of the EC - it was even visible on Vingegaard's body that he had gained weight since the Vuelta.)

However, in the broader perspective, I kind of find it reassuring that Vingegaard's level dropped after his GT win. It corresponds nicely to what would generally be expected from a top rider who has fought for the GC win in two consecutive three week long stage races. It's Pogacar (and to some extent Evenepoel) that has made us believe that you can compete at your highest level both in spring, summer and fall. In the old (and perhaps more credible) days, it would be regarded as perfectly normal that a rider's top form lasted 2-3 months. Thus, Vingegaard's failure at the European Championship might just show us that he's human.

Where do you read/listen to that full MR interview?
I certainly tend to agree

 

[Danskebjerge]

Where do you read/listen to that full MR interview?
I certainly tend to agree

Voldsomt angreb på Vingegaard: 'Overvægtig' og 'fede lårbasser'

Læs mere her

ekstrabladet.dk

 

[Samu Cuenca]

It sounds like they should have sent that gravel guy who's lost 60 kg instead, but he probably wouldn't have made it further into the race.

 

[KoopaCycling]

If half of the articles are true, Vingegaard can only fucntion as part of a team following a plan.
Meaning take the team behind him away and he reduces himself to a decidedly average cyclist.
Kinda scary. People always saying he is almost like a robot. But when i read current day articles, they seem to claim that's half true.

 

[aphronesis]

If half of the articles are true, Vingegaard can only fucntion as part of a team following a plan.
Meaning take the team behind him away and he reduces himself to a decidedly average cyclist.
Kinda scary. People always saying he is almost like a robot. But when i read current day articles, they seem to claim that's half true.

Do you have links? I can only 2/3 read Scandinavian, so something else might be easier.

 

[AmRacer]

Do you have links? I can only 2/3 read Scandinavian, so something else might be easier.

Is it Danish you struggle with? Translate the page.

Link from post above.

Voldsomt angreb på Vingegaard: 'Overvægtig' og 'fede lårbasser'

Læs mere her

ekstrabladet.dk

 

[Sciatic]

But it's different to me when we're speaking championships and national squids.
.

This is new to me—I guess only countries with ocean coastlines have them?

 

[aphronesis]

Is it Danish you struggle with? Translate the page.

Link from post above.

Voldsomt angreb på Vingegaard: 'Overvægtig' og 'fede lårbasser'

Læs mere her

ekstrabladet.dk

Thanks. I was pretty sure my descriptor covered the range. Struggle and unfamiliar aren’t the same. Specifically, I don’t know the syntax and some non-germanic forms.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

This is new to me—I guess only countries with ocean coastlines have them?

OK, I'm busted.
Can't hide I like squids on the telly food channel, but even more in a saucepan with lightly boiling dry white wine.

Regarding Pogi I think he just like plain roasting the squids he looses on the roads. Well roasted, all of them

 

[Danskebjerge]

While there are some fair explanations for Vingegaard's weak performance in France, he did do something quite inexcusable which was to put in an enduring ride the day before the RR. As he said before the race: "What I'm hearing is that many actually train quite hard the day before a one-day race. Now I've tried training a little harder than I have done other times, and we'll see if it works." He explained that Skjelmose - among others - advised him to do so.

Now, I wouldn't take advice from a guy like Skjelmose in general. But even so, why would you do something like that when you know that your body is tired and you're running on fumes? And why didn't the team manager stop this amateurish approach?

Former coach on Astana (for Fuglsang and others) is clear: "If you're going to ride in a one day race like the European Championship, you just don't train hard right up to race day." (tv2.dk)

As it is, not only Vingegaard, but also Skjelmose had problems on the short and steep climbs. Isn't that exactly what happens when you've dug deep the day before and haven't recovered enough?

It could be it was an act of desperation. They all saw Vingegaard's weakness, and then they came up with an idea that might bring a miracle. It probably did the opposite.