Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

[JimmyFingers]

JTL is the new Ricco, amateurishly doping to insane levels, and apparently bouncing off walls in clubs when he isn't. If Sky were dosing him like their other stars, as people think, he wouldn't have got caught. The whole situation stinks of him being a rogue, excessive doper who failed the IQ test. Sky were stupid to sign him, that's about the most muck you can throw at the team. The rest is just trying to make a square pegs fit a round hole.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Indication of Likely Cost of Therapy in Primary Care
NHS Cost of treatment (April 2008):
Epoetin Beta (NeoRecormon®): 2000units twice weekly for 4 weeks = £124.72
Epoetin Alfa (Eprex®): 2000units twice weekly for 4 weeks = £100.56
Darbepoetin alfa (Aranesp®): 20microgram once weekly for 4 weeks=£124.68


Pulled this from an older NICE report.
Puts the cost mentioned above into context, ie more expensive than the NHS cost, but not stupidly so.

 

[gillan1969]

JTL is the new Ricco, amateurishly doping to insane levels, and apparently bouncing off walls in clubs when he isn't. If Sky were dosing him like their other stars, as people think, he wouldn't have got caught. The whole situation stinks of him being a rogue, excessive doper who failed the IQ test. Sky were stupid to sign him, that's about the most muck you can throw at the team. The rest is just trying to make a square pegs fit a round hole.

whilst I probably agree with you...we have heard the one-off rougue excuse from those involved with Murdoch before...and we know where that ended up....

....and, in retrospect how ridiculous a stance it was.....although ridiculous to many at the time

 

[the sceptic]

JTL is the new Ricco, amateurishly doping to insane levels, and apparently bouncing off walls in clubs when he isn't. If Sky were dosing him like their other stars, as people think, he wouldn't have got caught. The whole situation stinks of him being a rogue, excessive doper who failed the IQ test. Sky were stupid to sign him, that's about the most muck you can throw at the team. The rest is just trying to make a square pegs fit a round hole.

JTL is the new Froome. Both doping to ridiculous levels to secure the dream contract.

With a bit more luck, JTL could be living in Monaco too with a grand tour win. Pro cycling can be a cruel game.

 

[gillan1969]

Indication of Likely Cost of Therapy in Primary Care
NHS Cost of treatment (April 2008):
Epoetin Beta (NeoRecormon®): 2000units twice weekly for 4 weeks = £124.72
Epoetin Alfa (Eprex®): 2000units twice weekly for 4 weeks = £100.56
Darbepoetin alfa (Aranesp®): 20microgram once weekly for 4 weeks=£124.68


Pulled this from an older NICE report.
Puts the cost mentioned above into context, ie more expensive than the NHS cost, but not stupidly so.

about the same as a night on the lash in Bristol

 

[Catwhoorg]

about the same as a night on the lash in Bristol

I have (for my sins) been out drinking in Bristol. That EPO is a whole lot cheaper...

 

[thehog]

JTL is the new Froome. Both doping to ridiculous levels to secure the dream contract.

With a bit more luck, JTL could be living in Monaco too with a grand tour win. Pro cycling can be a cruel game.

That was the plan. Kerrison had him on the GT program.

 

[thehog]

Sky were stupid to sign him, that's about the most muck you can throw at the team. The rest is just trying to make a square pegs fit a round hole.

More to the point, I think you mean Sky were stupid to train him from April 2012 and then let him get a unannounced blood draw and not correlate that to their own blood test 2 days later.

They knew his values and had trained him and continued with him into 2013.

 

[thehog]

Immediately after the contract he went on a bender.

Did he stop doping à la everyone else in 2006? That's not suggested. Did he dope specifically for the Worlds? UKAD don't say, they say the test taken before the Worlds indicates doping for the ToB, not based on the sample given the day before the race.

What they say is "probably used from" the end of August - i.e. That's when he began the doping. Its didn't actualy stop.

UKAD don't know how long he doped for but his values were sky (pardon the pun) high for the Worlds, so he doped for the Worlds with BC.

 

[TheSpud]

There are at least two mechanisms for such low ret%, with high HCT, which aren't mutually exclusive, he could conceivable done some EPO boosting, AND dropped a blood bag.

Dosing significant amounts of EPO, getting the HCT up, then suddenly stopping. The EPO use has suppressed the natural production of EPO. New red cell production crashes, low ret%

Dropping a bag, boosting HCT to a level which suppresses new red cell production.

So it could have been Riis type EPO and sudden stop - that is amateurish, and if he was acting along much more plausible and easy to sort out than a bag.

 

[TheSpud]

This effort to distance sky from JTL seems rather silly considering sky had full access and knew everything about him long before the contract was signed.

Full access to what exactly? There were no blood tests other than the Garmin one.

 

[thehog]

Full access to what exactly? There were no blood tests other than the Garmin one.

Lactate tests, which is blood, power files, FTP testing etc. It was all there along with his worlds power data and blood test post ride.

A one of singular blood test with Garmin tells you next to nothing.

 

[Merckx index]

I finally found the report. Would have been nice if someone had provided the link. (Edit: OK, Alex did, but quite a bit upthread. It's on the UKAD website, under Rule Violations: UKADvs_TiernanLocke_Decision_341.pdf

As I thought, there is nothing there that supports the conclusion of EPO 10-14 days prior to the sample taken as opposed to a later blood transfusion. In point 4, they say

In the absence of a plausible explanation from the rider it is alleged that the inevitable inference is that he had engaged in some form of doping to increase his haemoglobin levels.

then jump from that to point 48, where as previously noted here, they say the profile is "consistent with the use of an erythropoietic stimulant which had been discontinued approximately 10 to 14 days before the sample was taken." But as I and others have noted before, it's also consistent with a blood transfusion.

Since the method of manipulation is not relevant to whether JTL would be sanctioned, and if so, for how long (except that it includes the TOB), UKAD did not have to document why they concluded it was EPO. But this is very relevant to any argument about whether JTL stopped doping after the TOB.

The only other evidence noted is the very high but not quite over the limit off-score of about 128 from a sample taken on Sept. 24 at Manchester. This suggests the retics were starting to rise, but it's noted the difference is not significant, and the report says they didn't and couldn't use this evidence in coming to any decision. In any case, a slight rise in retics could be consistent with either EPO taken around TOB or a blood transfusion taken later.

I'll only repeat that the evidence in the literature does not offer strong support for the conclusion that 10-14 days following EPO retics would be severely depressed. It might happen, but a blood transfusion a little later is a much more certain way to get there.

And finally, I'm only jumping into this argument for the sake of the science. Unlike some of you, it doesn't matter to me when JTL doped. I thought some of the arguments in the decision were a little questionable, e.g., they said

There is no scientific evidence that acute alcohol intoxication has any effect on reticuloctyes in healthy subjects

This may be correct in a narrow sense, but there is a lot of evidence linking alcohol and reduced reticulocyte synthesis in alcoholics and in folate-deprived patients (the latter was discussed in the decision), and also in vitro. These studies don't prove that acute alcohol may inhibit reticulocyte synthesis in healthy patients, but I would regard this work as evidence for it. I don't have a problem with UKAD dismissing JTL's explanation for lack of strong support, but it's really not out of the question.

As I also pointed out earlier, the decision says he consumed 335 grams of alcohol, or 33 units. But Wiki says in England a unit of alcohol is 7.9 grams, not 10 grams (it is 10 ml). This of course has no bearing on the decision, but to me it's suggestive of sloppiness.

 

[thehog]

I finally found the report. Would have been nice if someone had provided the link.

As I thought, there is nothing there that supports the conclusion of EPO 10-14 days prior to the sample taken as opposed to a later blood transfusion. In point 4, they say



then jump from that to point 48, where as previously noted here, they say the profile is "consistent with the use of an erythropoietic stimulant which had been discontinued approximately 10 to 14 days before the sample was taken." But as I and others have noted before, it's also consistent with a blood transfusion.

Since the method of manipulation is not relevant to whether JTL would be sanctioned, and if so, for how long (except that it includes the TOB), UKAD did not have to document why they concluded it was EPO. But this is very relevant to any argument about whether JTL stopped doping after the TOB.

The only other evidence noted is the very high but not quite over the limit off-score of about 128 from a sample taken on Sept. 24 at Manchester. This suggests the retics were starting to rise, but it's noted the difference is not significant, and the report says they didn't and couldn't use this evidence in coming to any decision. In any case, a slight rise in retics could be consistent with either EPO taken around TOB or a blood transfusion taken later.

I'll only repeat that the evidence in the literature does not offer strong support for the conclusion that 10-14 days following EPO retics would be severely depressed. It might happen, but a blood transfusion a little later is a much more certain way to get there.

And finally, I'm only jumping into this argument for the sake of the science. Unlike some of you, it doesn't matter to me when JTL doped. I thought some of the arguments in the decision were a little questionable, e.g., they said

This may be correct in a narrow sense, but there is a lot of evidence linking alcohol and reduced reticulocyte synthesis in alcoholics and in folate-deprived patients (the latter was discussed in the decision), and also in vitro. These studies don't prove that acute alcohol may inhibit reticulocyte synthesis in healthy patients, but I would regard this work as evidence for it. I don't have a problem with UKAD dismissing JTL's explanation for lack of strong support, but it's really not out of the question.

Excellent summary.

What I also noted was each side gave a short presentation to the panel. Then the panel effectively used the submitted reports from each side to come to their decision. There was no cross examination. Which is very much different than say the burden of proof being on the prosecution to prove doping. Its more the defendant has to prove the anomalies are natural. Thus the points you raised could not be challenged by JTL.

Their did reference some "offline" reports so assume this is both parties sharing their arguments prior to hearing.

Now wonder Roman wants to go to the European Court.

Link here: http://www.ukad.org.uk/anti-doping-rule-violations/current-violations/

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I finally found the report. Would have been nice if someone had provided the link.

I did originally but it was 15 pages ago or so and easily missed if you came in on subsequent days. I saw link originally via inrng twitter feed so figured I'd update this thread as I noticed it wasn't on here at the time I saw it.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1551656&postcount=1746

 

[TheSpud]

Lactate tests, which is blood, power files, FTP testing etc. It was all there along with his worlds power data and blood test post ride.

A one of singular blood test with Garmin tells you next to nothing.

What exactly do lactate tests tell you about hemoglobin & reticulocytes?

What do power files tell you about them?

Nothing, nada, nought, zilch ...

So they didn't know all about him long before the contract was signed (which rules out the post worlds test as well). People really should stop trying to twist the truth.

 

[thehog]

What exactly do lactate tests tell you about hemoglobin & reticulocytes?

What do power files tell you about them?

Nothing, nada, nought, zilch ...

So they didn't know all about him long before the contract was signed (which rules out the post worlds test as well). People really should stop trying to twist the truth.

And again, what does a one blood test measuring Hemoglobin & reticulocytes, tell you? Nothing, nada. You need a baseline. If your Hemoglobin is 14.8 what does this mean? Nothing.

That's what lactate tests do. They create a baseline of potential power output and it can estimate vo2 max. When you also have several power files from training and racing you have a very good profile of what a rider is "naturally" capable of.

Now JTL was impressing Kerrison with his power numbers so much so, Kerrison wanted him to be a GT rider. Which would mean JTL was doping at Sky training camps?

 

[the sceptic]

What exactly do lactate tests tell you about hemoglobin & reticulocytes?

What do power files tell you about them?

Nothing, nada, nought, zilch ...

So they didn't know all about him long before the contract was signed (which rules out the post worlds test as well). People really should stop trying to twist the truth.

Martin, I thought you had quit the clinic? Hows it going?

 

[thehog]

Martin, I thought you had quit the clinic? Hows it going?

Is that Martin?

Can't help self. Makes sense though. Same style.

 

[TheSpud]

And again, what does a one blood test measuring Hemoglobin & reticulocytes, tell you? Nothing, nada. You need a baseline. If your Hemoglobin is 14.8 what does this mean? Nothing.

That's what lactate tests do. They create a baseline of potential power output and it can estimate vo2 max. When you also have several power files from training and racing you have a very good profile of what a rider is "naturally" capable of.

Now JTL was impressing Kerrison with his power numbers so much so, Kerrison wanted him to be a GT rider. Which would mean JTL was doping at Sky training camps?

Ok, that makes sense. I think I was more referring to the fact that they didn't know all about him from a blood profile (ABP style) point of view. In fact not even Garmin did from that one test.

Sorry if it came across abruptly - I had, as we can now say, been on a quick visit to Bristol before that post ....

 

[thehog]

Ok, that makes sense. I think I was more referring to the fact that they didn't know all about him from a blood profile (ABP style) point of view. In fact not even Garmin did from that one test.

Sorry if it came across abruptly - I had, as we can now say, been on a quick visit to Bristol before that post ....

You see Martin, it took the UCI one year to build a blood profile on JTL. What makes you think Sky or Garmin could do better with one test? Or gain anything meaningful from it?

Regardless, just about every pre-hire has a passport. JTL was a special case who had no blood profiling in his history.

Sky had his power data & lactate. They knew what he was. Thus made him a GT rider.

You'll be banned again soon, so no need to reply

 

[the sceptic]

Is that Martin?

Can't help self. Makes sense though. Same style.

The nada, nothing, zilch line is classic Martin.

Anyway back to JTL, McQuaid comments.

McQuaid last October confidently expressed his view that anomalies detected in Tiernan Locke’s biological passport could be explained and that the case would go no further.

Said McQuaid when news of the controversy broke: “We are currently planning to answer the questions raised by the UCI and we’re extremely confident that, once we present our answers, the case won’t go any further.”

sounds good!

I run a private business and as such am under no obligation to comment on how I run my business, and to be honest I do not feel the need to, or have the desire to.”

oops.

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-...-role-with-doped-tiernan-locke-cites-privacy/

 

[The Hitch]

Martin, I thought you had quit the clinic? Hows it going?

Quite generous of you to euphemise getting life banned for several counts of trolling, as "quitting"

 

[TailWindHome]

Sky had his power data & lactate.

What would Sky have seen in JTL's testing which would have said 'doper' as opposed to 'talented rider'?

 

[thehog]

What would Sky have seen in JTL's testing which would have said 'doper' as opposed to 'talented rider'?

Correct. Why do testing? To weed out the dopers? Of course not.

Performance testing is to define a baseline of performance and provide a consist, medium to long term view of an athletes potential.

Teams are not going around performing anti-doping tests on riders. They rely on the passport to provide that data in a long term format. That's why it's there. JTL was an exception to the norm as he had no passport data, nor any BC data apart from his junior years. Sky knew that.

But from his power numbers over a good period of time along with his lactate testing they saw a rider who was what he said he was. They saw nothing that warned them away from signing him.

If JTL was the hack that most believe he is then Sky would have seen this in his numbers. Unless he was doping with Sky at their training camps and in preparation for the Worlds. Brailsford had told JTL he wanted him part of the team in May.