Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

[Escarabajo]

No I haven't; not yet anyway.

Contador's "conclusion" came after a VERY long time. They dismissed his arguments and found that he had doped, albeit probably unintentionally

I'll wait for JTL's "conclusion" before I treat them both the same way.

A better question would be "did I react to both situations the same way?
But Contadors was a failed test of a banned substance.
I'm awaiting developments with JTL, but keeping an open mind just now.
What did you think of my theory about why & who leaked it??

If you compare both cases JTL is worse than the Clen case IMHO. Irregularities with the Bio means no other than Oxygen boosting which is the worse case scenario at this moment.

 

[sniper]

Forgive my "doing a Hog" and quoting myself, but I'm still wondering about this. Does anyone have any thoughts about why UKAD and UCI refused to do the extra testing on JTL? Is there something in the rules that would forbid it? I can't think of anything, or any good reason why they wouldn't have welcomed a team asking for (and paying for) more testing on its rider.

One problem is that in cycling nobody is held accountable for what they say.
It's probably just as easy for Endura to claim this, as it is for UCI to deny it.

 

[DirtyWorks]

If a team is willing to pay for additional testing, why in the world would an anti-doping body (UKAD) or the UCI refuse to do so? Other than a desire to hide doping? What am I missing here?

The sports federation manages the athlete's profile. WADA/NADO do not have a direct relationship with the athlete and no way to manage a direct relationship with the athlete.

There is nothing in the WADA docs that suggests they have a process where an athlete could self-test and just add results to his/her records. Someone from the sports federation, or an event promoter can order samples, not the athlete themselves. It's a good idea though.

Is it possible to self-test in the UK? In the U.S. it's no problem. There are a number of blood analysis services that go direct to a consumer. From there, they could have posted results to the Internet. But, maybe that's too direct.

 

[Beech Mtn]

One problem is that in cycling nobody is held accountable for what they say.
It's probably just as easy for Endura to claim this, as it is for UCI to deny it.

If UKAD is like USADA, the NADO is told what to do in every way by the sports federation. The sports federation manages the athlete's profile. WADA/NADO do not have a direct relationship with the athlete and no way to manage a direct relationship with the athlete.

I'm not sure why a DS doesn't understand this, but they probably didn't even bother reading the NADO/WADA documentation.

Thanks to both - gives me something to think about . . .

 

[Catwhoorg]

Forgive my "doing a Hog" and quoting myself, but I'm still wondering about this. Does anyone have any thoughts about why UKAD and UCI refused to do the extra testing on JTL? Is there something in the rules that would forbid it? I can't think of anything, or any good reason why they wouldn't have welcomed a team asking for (and paying for) more testing on its rider.

Ask lance how his donation worked out.

Having a team or individual paying for their own testing provides the possibility of collusion. Its ethically wrong.

Endura could easily have stepped up internal testing (and paid for that), sharing the results with the bodies (but those results are treated with a bit more caution). There are plenty of labs that can run the tests required.

Paying for the anti-doping bodies to do your testing. Its just a no-no.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...Paying for the anti-doping bodies to do your testing. Its just a no-no.

I'm hijacking the thread but this is something that needs to be sorted out.

Let's argue that JTL is really clean and wants the world to know it. Why shouldn't he be able to fund his own testing through WADA/NADO?

I understand there's not a process for this and there's no process for him to publish his WADA-lab-test values either. But, it seems to me this is an opportunity for WADA and the athlete who is actually clean(ish) to show it. It's a shame there isn't a way for it to happen.

 

[D-Queued]

I'm hijacking the thread but this is something that needs to be sorted out.

Let's argue that JTL is really clean and wants the world to know it. Why shouldn't he be able to fund his own testing through WADA/NADO?

I understand there's not a process for this and there's no process for him to publish his WADA-lab-test values either. But, it seems to me this is an opportunity for WADA and the athlete who is actually clean(ish) to show it. It's a shame there isn't a way for it to happen.

You are a long-time member here. So perhaps this argument is so long ago it may have slipped your mind.

First, WADA was not created to provide for-profit services to athletes who want to get a sense of their parameters.

Such a for-profit activity would have direct Conflict of Interest issues with the primary mandate. This COI concern includes with those organizations that fund the not-for-profit enterprise and want certainty that their funds are being used for the purposes intended - and not co-opted or leveraged for a for-profit activity.

Second, and perhaps more importantly, providing any access to athletes for private testing could potentially allow them to game or otherwise beat the tests.

Dave.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Endura Racing previously made attempts to arrange for additional spontaneous testing for its riders through UKAD. Unfortunately this request was rejected however Endura Racing’s willingness to fund additional testing to expose its riders to a more prolific test regime than the mandatory requirements is clear evidence of Endura’s position on the matter.

Why were Endura wanting additional testing ? what prompted this request ? isn't this very unusual ?

 

[Catwhoorg]

Let's argue that JTL is really clean and wants the world to know it. Why shouldn't he be able to fund his own testing through WADA/NADO?

Conflict of interest.
Even the suggestion that a payment for a clean result damages the credibility of the process.

He can arrange testing, through 3rd party labs using WADA approved protocols and release that data. Ideally have a journalist or someone do the releasing on their behalf for a bit more impartiality.

At the end of the day though, these numbers are always going to be treated a little more sceptically as an athlete could 'suppres's a positive in testing arranged on their own.

 

[Catwhoorg]

$25000 donation for anti-doping by Lance in 2002 (for Juniors) (leaving aside the $100K later in his career)

Generous gesture or bribe ?

$250 for a single test, probably doesn't really trip anyones radar.

But $1000, $2500 or $5000 over time?

Do you see how it could be seen to be an issue ?

 

[Benotti69]

Why were Endura wanting additional testing ? what prompted this request ? isn't this very unusual ?

It is a bit like Sky asking to WADA to prove Froome was clean by looking at his power figures.

Asking to pay for official people to test you so you can claim to be clean.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Why were Endura wanting additional testing ? what prompted this request ? isn't this very unusual ?

Because regardless of whether each of the two riders were doping or not, Jonathan Tiernan-Locke is more self-aware than Wiggins and realised that questions were going to be asked about his sudden leap in abilities, and was prepared for the suspicions that followed.

They wanted additional testing in order to try to assuage people's doubts about him in view of the sudden jump in capabilities. This is similar to why previously suspended riders like Ivan Basso have publicised figures, however it is possible that the likes of Endura and JTL didn't have the same resources available to them that Basso did hence the request for the national authority to do the testing (which raises the conflict of interest question) rather than a theoretically independent body.

 

[del1962]

Because regardless of whether each of the two riders were doping or not, Jonathan Tiernan-Locke is more self-aware than Wiggins and realised that questions were going to be asked about his sudden leap in abilities, and was prepared for the suspicions that followed.

They wanted additional testing in order to try to assuage people's doubts about him in view of the sudden jump in capabilities. This is similar to why previously suspended riders like Ivan Basso have publicised figures, however it is possible that the likes of Endura and JTL didn't have the same resources available to them that Basso did hence the request for the national authority to do the testing (which raises the conflict of interest question) rather than a theoretically independent body.

Not want to side track the thread but Wiggins was already in the bio passport scheme.

Anyway ack on topic, there should be a provision for conti teams to opt into the biopassport scheme

 

[Benotti69]

Bio Passport as it is currently 'run' is the equivalent of 50% HcT limit.

 

[DirtyWorks]

there should be a provision for conti teams to opt into the biopassport scheme

This is another good alternative. WADA/NADO set a cost so the sports federation doesn't skim the revenue. That's all.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Anyway ack on topic, there should be a provision for conti teams to opt into the biopassport scheme

Sergio Ribeiro was busted for biopassport violations in August, riding for a Continental level squad.

 

[del1962]

Sergio Ribeiro was busted for biopassport violations in August, riding for a Continental level squad.

You are right, what are the biopassport inclusion regulations?

 

[Parker]

Sergio Ribeiro was busted for biopassport violations in August, riding for a Continental level squad.

That might have been something to do with him being a previously banned rider though.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That might have been something to do with him being a previously banned rider though.

António Amorim, on the other hand, was not a previously banned rider when he was busted on the bio-passport in June. However both cases dated way back (Amorim to 2010, Ribeiro to 2011), and both had their suspicious values dating back to time with the team that is now Efapel (then Barbot-Siper). Whether this is that Barbot were on the biopass then (I know that Liberty Seguros Continental mark 2, the aborted 2011 project, were going to be biopassport compliant) or that LA-Antarte and Louletano (their respective 2013 teams) were and Barbot weren't, but the differences have caused it to be flagged up like has happened to Tiernan-Locke, I don't know, but I presume the length of time is due to fewer races and fewer tests taking place.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You are right, what are the biopassport inclusion regulations?

"Registered testing pool":

Road / Route:
Riders included inthe Biological Passport / Coureurs inclus dans le passeport biologique
Top ranked riders in Asiantour Men and Men U23
Top ranked riders in Europeantour Men and Men U23
Top ranked riders in Americantour Men and Men U23
Top ranked riders in Af ricantour Men and Men U23
Top ranked riders inOceaniatour Men and Men U23
Top ranked women riders
Track/ Piste:
Top ranked ridersIndividual Pursuit Men and Women
Top ranked riders Keirin Men and Women
Top ranked ridersTimeTrial Men and Women
Top ranked riders Madison
Top ranked riders Points Race Men and Women
Top ranked riders Scratch Men and Women
Top ranked riders Sprint Men and Women
MTB:
Top ranked riders Cross-countryOlympic Men and Women
Top ranked riders Downhill Men and Women
Top ranked riders 4X Men and Women
Top ranked riders Cross-country Marathon Men and Women
Cyclo-Cross:
Top Ranked Riders Men and Women
BMX:
Top Ranked Riders Men and Women
Trial:
Top Ranked Riders Men and Women
Para-cycling Track:
Gold Medalists in all events inthe previous ParalympicsGames.
Para-cycling Road:
Gold Medalists in all events inthe previous ParalympicsGames.
Other riders asdetermined by the UCI Antidoping Commission / Autres coureurs
déterminésparla Commission Antidopage

 

[Dear Wiggo]

That's what they publish as the criteria, but I struggle to see how they can do any sort of random testing given the criteria are results-oriented.

Also doubting the consistency of the selection for testing.

 

[D-Queued]

"Registered testing pool":

Is it just me, or does that seem like a very short list?

Dave.

 

[blackcat]

The goal in bike racing is to win and not test positive. Why would a team/athletes who is/are doing whatever it takes to win spend any resources on anti-doping compliance besides never testing positive? Unless you are JV/Garmin, it doesn't seem to matter to team owners.

The contradiction of Sky-scientific-decisions-is-what-makes-Sky-team-all-powerful and the fact JTL was hired on apparently without any "Sky science" make some sense if Brailsford does not care one scintilla about clean riders.

but remember, Wiggins had his break out at the Giro and Tour on Slipstream, and those fuzzy Giro blood numbers, and JV was happy to sell him to Brailsford from 2millionGBP

seems to me, sometimes it matters to JV. sometimes, he has it that it seems to matter to JV, and it oscillates somewhere betwixt pending circumstances.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Is it just me, or does that seem like a very short list?

Dave.

The first line in the list is all the pros - so all the people in the ABP. The rest are the "additional" bits and pieces. For some reason I was under the impression people who won major continental / national races were also tested, but perusing that list did not give me the same conclusion.

 

[Morbius]

Does anyone have figures for how often UCI ask riders to explain the BP scores? Do they write to dozens of riders or just a small number?

We know that failed A sample is > 95% likely to result in failed B sample, but I'm not clear how often suspicious or questionable BP scores lead to anything further. It could be that JTL is one of many people who go through this process but was just 'unlucky' to have had his name leaked. Alternatively there could be very few that get to this stage.