Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

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Dr. Maserati

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vedrafjord said:
But merely identifying athletes for OOC tests won't cut it. For the last two decades, the two most important means of cheating have been EPO and other stimulants of RBC production, and autologous blood transfusions. The short half-life of microdosed EPO, along with the absence of an effective test for self-transfusions, means that the passport needs to be enough evidence in itself to convict, otherwise it is useless.

We know that athletes have had BP patterns consistent with doping (Hg staying steady or increasing during a 3 week GT, suppressed retics) but haven't been flagged for review by experts.

"We do know that back in 2009 the software was flagging up 10-15 cases a week according to a presentation given by the UCI’s Doctor Zorzoli" (quoting from the Inner Ring website).

We know that the vast majority of those flagged escaped sanction, where being flagged means (direct WADA quote) "it is highly likely that a prohibited substance or prohibited method had been used and unlikely that it is the result of any other cause".
We know that the majority of passport cases happened in its first two years.

We know that climbing speeds are rebounding to vintage EPO era levels following several years of slowdown.

I can only conclude that either a) athletes have learned to blood dope and fly under the passport radar while still getting performance benefits b) doping other than blood doping e.g. metabolic modulators such as AICAR etc. is what's important nowadays or c) both a + b.

It seems that athletes can sail as close to the sun as they like, and if their wax wings melt, they can give some bull**** excuse to the expert panel and the general public is none the wiser. I don't see how the passport can be called effective in any way. Sometimes I wonder would Rasmussen have triggered a passport case if he was around today. One of the most comical dopers of all time, but his haematocrit never even hit 44%.
While I would agree with many of your concerns - but I do not agree that the BP is not effective.

As an example, the highlighted is simply wrong.
The 10-15 Zorzoli mentions is to do with 99% specificity level (ie the very start of the process) while the WADA 'quote' is after the 3 experts have viewed a case near its conclusion.

In fact the 10-15 per week number suggests that deviations from the norm, is the norm - building cases on the BP alone has been done, it will always be on interpretation of data.
 
May 26, 2010
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With McQuaid in charge of the BP, there is no way it was run affectively.

Ashenden stepped down from the BP because it wasn't working.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Benotti69 said:
With McQuaid in charge of the BP, there is no way it was run affectively.

Ashenden stepped down from the BP because it wasn't working.

Ashenden did not step down because it is not working.

You and I have already been through this. To suggest this again is disgraceful on what MA has spent his career doing.
He would be the first to say it is limited and needs constant monitoring but he has NOT said that the BP is not working.
Indeed he is still part of BP with WADA - why would he do this if it is not working?
 
May 26, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Ashenden did not step down because it is not working.

You and I have already been through this. To suggest this again is disgraceful on what MA has spent his career doing.
He would be the first to say it is limited and needs constant monitoring but he has NOT said that the BP is not working.
Indeed he is still part of BP with WADA - why would he do this if it is not working?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vroomen-and-ashenden-criticise-lack-of-biological-passport-testing

He is all for BP, but says it is not working in its current guise.

JV has also said the BP is not working and wants teams to pay big money for anti doping.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Benotti69 said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vroomen-and-ashenden-criticise-lack-of-biological-passport-testing

He is all for BP, but says it is not working in its current guise.

JV has also said the BP is not working and wants teams to pay big money for anti doping.

A link - progress.
Of course nowhere in that does he say it is not working, which was your earlier suggestion - why not just admit you were wrong?

The BP works fine, it has limitations and in particular is underfunded, that leaves gaps in profiles. That is the reason JV wants more money, because it does work.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
A link - progress.
Of course nowhere in that does he say it is not working, which was your earlier suggestion - why not just admit you were wrong?

The BP works fine, it has limitations and in particular is underfunded, that leaves gaps in profiles. That is the reason JV wants more money, because it does work.

Wouldn't a fairer assessment of that be that it "pretty much" works. Otherwise, it isn't underfunded. Or it doesn't work "completely" and IS underfunded. Either way, I'd suggest that your black and white assessment of it "working" isn't quite so black and white?
 
JimmyFingers said:
If they believe he has been doping presumably it would be an expectedly course of action? From their point of view they signed him on a fat contract on the basis of enhanced performances IF he was doping/

Anyway, just a bit more tasty speculation.

i think the sky conspiracy is more related to the fact that should the smoke be the result of a fire and it was seen that he had removed himself from the GB Worlds team for other reasons then questions would be asked of Sky as to why they would not have come clean i.e. that they were trying to cover something up

leak then distance themselves (from a rider who has not performed)...probably best strategy for them...if not for JTL
 
May 26, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
<snipped>



Dr. Maserati said:
The BP works fine, it has limitations and in particular is underfunded, that leaves gaps in profiles. That is the reason JV wants more money, because it does work.


it doesn't work. It didn't catch Wiggins, Contador, Froome, Nibali, Cobo, Hesjedal or Evans.
 
Mar 12, 2010
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JimmyFingers said:
A friend of mine knows his sister. She says it's all ******** (predictably) and believes it was Sky that leaked it in order to push him out the team. Personally I think that's far fetched (seems a pretty risky course of action) but I would guess that's what JTL believes as well.

Far fetched? Not at all.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Freddythefrog said:
Horner tells me he likes the BP just fine.
british petroleum, whats not to like?

not like big oil, and big tex from houston

bp the quiet achiever
horner
the bp horner bald quiet achiever. i dont usually like alliteration, but thats not bad ~adam zwar
 
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Benotti69 said:
Thank you for proving my point. BP caught a few minnows.

Point being, the logic you used to call Martin a doper means every rider who wins is one in your eyes.
 
gooner said:
Point being, the logic you used to call Martin a doper means every rider who wins is one in your eyes.

Jeez how long have you been here gooner;) We had Lance bots and now we have SKYbots which are terms people like Benotti like to throw around, the irony being that these posters are also bots, dopingbots. Lots and lots of posts with the exact same analysis free refrain posted over and over and over and over. The very definition of a bot.
 
There seems to a view amongst some of you that if the Bio Passport doesn't catch every doper or even many dopers it is somehow useless. Well the police don't catch every criminal or solve every crime either, but their very presence deters many would be criminals. If they were better funded they would catch more, but they are still worth having.

If the passport reduces the amount of doping possible, deters riders from doping or even gives them a tool to stand up to a dodgy DS then it's doing a good job. The ultimate purpose of anti-doping is not to catch dopers but to reduce and (ideally) eliminate doping.
 
Jul 17, 2012
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TheGame said:
Far fetched? Not at all.

The simplest explanation is usually the right one. That one is rather complicated, risky and an extreme solution to a problem of what, under-performance? How many years does he have left on his contract? One I'm guessing. Sky are a rich team, I'd assume they could carry the wage of an underperforming rider another year.

That said, clearly the Sky theory is the one JTL believes, and he is in a better position to judge then any of us.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Parker said:
There seems to a view amongst some of you that if the Bio Passport doesn't catch every doper or even many dopers it is somehow useless. Well the police don't catch every criminal or solve every crime either, but their very presence deters many would be criminals.

I'd love to see the logic or stats that lead you to this conclusion. It's not one I hold myself. Given the corruption in the police force, everywhere, your analogy is spot on, I'll give you that.


Parker said:
If the passport reduces the amount of doping possible, deters riders from doping or even gives them a tool to stand up to a dodgy DS then it's doing a good job. The ultimate purpose of anti-doping is not to catch dopers but to reduce and (ideally) eliminate doping.

This is not what the anti-doping component of the UCI website says, so again, where are you getting your information?

The UCI anti-doping programme has two objectives:

get rid of cheats (doping detection)
dissuade riders from resorting to doping

http://www.uci.ch/templates/UCI/UCI5/layout.asp?MenuId=MjI0NQ&LangId=1
 
JimmyFingers said:
The simplest explanation is usually the right one. That one is rather complicated, risky and an extreme solution to a problem of what, under-performance? How many years does he have left on his contract? One I'm guessing. Sky are a rich team, I'd assume they could carry the wage of an underperforming rider another year.

That said, clearly the Sky theory is the one JTL believes, and he is in a better position to judge then any of us.

I think the most simple explanation is that the JTL news was leaked to Walsh unintentionally. He'd obviously got to know a lot of people in the British Cycling and Sky set up very well over the last year so it wouldn't surprise me if someone mentioned it to Walsh without really thinking about the consequences.

No doubt Sky aren't happy with JTL (his comments about their training and his underperformance) and vice versa but Sky could simply pay off the remaining year of his contract if they were that desperate to get rid of him. Far less messy.

EDIT - Also I wouldn't say that JTL is the right one to judge. He's obviously in a right state and won't be thinking it through logically.
 

martinvickers

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Dear Wiggo said:
I'd love to see the logic or stats that lead you to this conclusion. It's not one I hold myself. Given the corruption in the police force, everywhere, your analogy is spot on, I'll give you that.

1988 Sampson and Cohen Study
1995 Sherman and Weisburd study.

you're welcome
 
May 26, 2010
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gooner said:
Point being, the logic you used to call Martin a doper means every rider who wins is one in your eyes.

It really is a waste of time expecting fanboys to see the logic. BP doesnt work so why should garmin be able to beat it?

Dan Martin, lovely bloke, just like Indurain, Hamilton, Landis and all those other nice fellas......
 
JimmyFingers said:
The simplest explanation is usually the right one.

Pat opened a case on JTL as some insurance.

That could be right too. This is a tough one to narrow down because there are a bunch of dark forces working including Sky's legendary scientific thoroughness that turns out to really be a legend.
 
DirtyWorks said:
Pat opened a case on JTL as some insurance.

That could be right too. This is a tough one to narrow down because there are a bunch of dark forces working including Sky's legendary scientific thoroughness that turns out to really be a legend.
Your simplest explanation involves Pat handpicking a sacrifical lamb to go after Sky/Cookson, and that lamb being one of Andrew's riders?