Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

[coinneach]

Can anyone help me with this:

Has British Cycling any investigative role in this now, or is their job just to hand out the sanctions?

I remain open minded about his guilt or innocence.
I agree about the suspicion.
I guess there will be innocent cyclists found guilty: its not an exact science, this blood passport. But UCI has invested so much of its credibility in it that they cannot afford it to fail.

I suggest JTL releases all his data & correspondence with the UCI like Horner did.
(I thought Horners data looked guilty as hell, but the way he released it made him look clean)

 

[Franklin]

I guess there will be innocent cyclists found guilty: its not an exact science, this blood passport. But UCI has invested so much of its credibility in it that they cannot afford it to fail.

Actually, so far they seem to be really conservative, so I wouldn't be too afraid. And I can't say I'm not understanding why they are conservative, you don't need to see a conspiracy behind this. I can imagine that the doctors involved also are pretty cautious.

I suggest JTL releases all his data & correspondence with the UCI like Horner did.
(I thought Horners data looked guilty as hell, but the way he released it made him look clean)

He won't do that. The circumstances are utterly different.

 

[Ferminal]

Anyway, on topic: JTL most likely raced ToB and the Worlds clean but perhaps his preparation for them was not. It's taken a year to set his baseline and now UCI see a case to answer. This makes Sky look more naive than they did hiring Leinders, Barry, Yates etc but it doesn't point to a team-wide programme.

Well if you have 4% retics or something two days before starting the ToB (hypothetical - but we know it relates to September so it was either during the race or a "Pre-Competition" test) it can't exactly be called racing clean can it? There is no perhaps about it either, unless you want more than 99.9% certainty.

The amount of doping (in numbers and magnitude) which actually goes on during races would be a fraction of what happens outside.

 

[Morbius]

Has British Cycling any investigative role in this now, or is their job just to hand out the sanctions?

They have handed it over to UKAD to investigate

 

[JimmyFingers]

I don't get the use of the word danger. No one is trying to sanction these athletes, they just say that they possibly dope. they are allowed to.

They possibly dope because the last few decades have shown advantages from doping are so high that those who don't dope will not compete with those who do, and anti doping has the whole time found itself well behind those it is chasing on every level and thus has been unable to stop doping being a massive factor.

To say you believe athletes at the very top of endurance sports should be above suspicion is to me not that different from saying that you think next years Nobel prize for chemistry will go to someone did not even complete primary education rather than someone with a number of high level university degrees.

Both statements involve ignoring or limiting one of the major background factors behind success in those respective fields, and replacing it with the vague ethereal quality of "awesomeness".

I'm not saying they are above suspicion, more that the default position should be the benefit of the doubt until there is something more than simply being successful. So rather than assuming guilt from a successful athlete we should hope they are clean, and even assume they are clean, rather than simply go 'the Brownlees, they are triathletes, they win a lot, they are training with Sky, they must be dopers'.

That sort of assumption is massively unfair on an athlete who is doing it clean.

But yes, no athlete can be above suspicion. Not being able to prove a negative cuts both ways.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Correct. Endura have stated they handed over JTL to Sky for the last quarter of 2012 when the doping occurred which just brings up more reg flags.

September 2012 to December 31st 2012 he was effectively a Sky rider.



http://road.cc/content/news/95413-e...ach-pay-bio-passport-testing-jonathan-tiernan

Ok but he was already winning by the last quarter of 2012, so if he was doping if certainly predates Sky involvement. And logic would say Sky had no involvement if he was doping in the last quarter, around the ToB and the WC in Valkenburg. Because if they were involved with him doping when riding for another team, why on earth would that doping cease when they sign the rider? And the BP violations indicate he did stop, and rode for Sky clean, and his results in 2013 certainly point towards that too.

I think the most Sky have to answer for is being mugs in signing a suspicious rider. The rest of it actually casts them in a good light. As for BC, do you hold the Italian cycling federation responsible for Di Luca, or Santa? Riders dope, and they can do that independently of the team they ride for and their national federation. I think there's a desperation to throw some mud at Sky and BC, when really the rider has to shoulder the responsibility. There's a good chance that Sky leaked this to Walsh, when they cottoned on to the fact they had been duped.

 

[MartinGT]

Ok but he was already winning by the last quarter of 2012, so if he was doping if certainly predates Sky involvement. And logic would say Sky had no involvement if he was doping in the last quarter, around the ToB and the WC in Valkenburg. Because if they were involved with him doping when riding for another team, why on earth would that doping cease when they sign the rider? And the BP violations indicate he did stop, and rode for Sky clean, and his results in 2013 certainly point towards that too.

I think the most Sky have to answer for is being mugs in signing a suspicious rider. The rest of it actually casts them in a good light. As for BC, do you hold the Italian cycling federation responsible for Di Luca, or Santa? Riders dope, and they can do that independently of the team they ride for and their national federation. I think there's a desperation to throw some mud at Sky and BC, when really the rider has to shoulder the responsibility. There's a good chance that Sky leaked this to Walsh, when they cottoned on to the fact they had been duped.

Does one of the key men for the Italian cycling fediration also work for Vini etc? Do these teams have an relationship similar to that of Sky and BC? Its very incestuous

 

[JimmyFingers]

Likely to be banned shortly so I'd like to take this opportunity to say goodbye and thanks for all the fish.

 

[Ferminal]

I always knew you were thehog.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Well I received an infraction and my response was 'bite me' so not sure I'll last long. Odd place to say it but if I am to go I didn't want to without saying goodbye. I've knocked heads with plenty of people here but also enjoy and respect a lot of the posters here. I won't miss the frustrations here, but I will miss the intelligence, humour and debating skills of the more coherent members of the forum.

 

[Lanark]

preceded by...

"I really do think the best thing to do with the whole doping culture of the sport, to move past that image that we've had in the past, is to talk about it, be completely open and say: 'Listen, this was is what happened in the sport back then but it's definitely not happening any more, and these are the reasons. It needs to be talked about and we need to move on from that."

You can't take one quote and ignore the context (well you can, but you have zero credibility for doing so).

Actually, this context is just as ***. 'This is what happened back then, but definitely isn't happening any more?' What? Ok, this might be an appropriate response when the headline is 'Laurant Jalabert caught in 1998', then you can say that is was a long time ago.

But when your own teammate is suspected of doping in the last 18 months, talking about 'we have to move on, it was a long time ago' is not an appropriate response. It makes you sound like a con man who just regurgitates some empty PR-line. But then again, that is exactly what he is doing, so appearances aren't deceiving in this case.

 

[Lanark]

Well I received an infraction and my response was 'bite me' so not sure I'll last long. Odd place to say it but if I am to go I didn't want to without saying goodbye. I've knocked heads with plenty of people here but also enjoy and respect a lot of the posters here. I won't miss the frustrations here, but I will miss the intelligence, humour and debating skills of the more coherent members of the forum.

That's a shame Jimmy. I don't often agree with you, but it's nice to have someone from the 'other side' who is willing to engage in a civil debate.

 

[Franklin]

Well I received an infraction and my response was 'bite me' so not sure I'll last long. Odd place to say it but if I am to go I didn't want to without saying goodbye. I've knocked heads with plenty of people here but also enjoy and respect a lot of the posters here. I won't miss the frustrations here, but I will miss the intelligence, humour and debating skills of the more coherent members of the forum.

Oh don't be a drama fish. In the worst case you get a temp ban unless you have been ruder than you tell us. Nothing wrong with an infraction followed with a cool down period.

Helps keeping perspective and get a breather. Besides, you haven't been banned yet, so meh.

 

[JimmyFingers]

This much is true. Wasn't trying to be dramatic, it honestly was a heartfelt goodbye. Just found an infraction for reacting to being insulted...insulting.

Anyway not banned yet, so sorry for the off-topicness.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Is there a link or a poster who can provide a succint timeline for the transfer, good/bad performances, and likely test dates for his in competition tests and BP tests?

 

[simoni]

Seeems to me theres three possible implications here.

1 - JTL doped in 2012 and continued with his illness used as the explanation (Sky are cheating scum/hopeless incompetents)
2 - JTL doped pre Sky, then stopped explaining his BP violation (Sky are hopeless incompetents)
3 - JTL is brilliant and has never doped - his illness caused the violation (Sky are in the clear)

Given that proceedings have been opened option 3 looks the least likely. If either 1 or 2 are true then Sky, at best, looks like idiots who aren't capable of "walking the walk", at worst, complete liars. Either way, this punches an enormous hole in their credibility. Even with the best of intentions they aren't trustworthy.

 

[wirral]

Torquay Herald has broken 2 stories (new info or new angle) both highly supportive of JTL, in fact more than that, positively laying out a defence for him, but both articles state the rider is not making any comment at this time. It is hard to believe that this very small regional newspaper is not acting as the PR outlet for JTL whilst not acknowledging this role.

If he can only muster the Torquay Herald, I would say he is not connected enough in the cycling world to get off this charge.

 

[BroDeal]

Seeems to me theres three possible implications here.

1 - JTL doped in 2012 and continued with his illness used as the explanation (Sky are cheating scum/hopeless incompetents)
2 - JTL doped pre Sky, then stopped explaining his BP violation (Sky are hopeless incompetents)
3 - JTL is brilliant and has never doped - his illness caused the violation (Sky are in the clear)

Given that proceedings have been opened option 3 looks the least likely. If either 1 or 2 are true then Sky, at best, looks like idiots who aren't capable of "walking the walk", at worst, complete liars. Either way, this punches an enormous hole in their credibility. Even with the best of intentions they aren't trustworthy.

That is the genius of Brailsford. You see when anything goes right it is because he is a brilliant micromanager who pays attention to every detail, no matter how small, and plans things to a degree no other cycling manager in the world would think of doing. When anything goes wrong it is because he is a dupe, too trusting, or just downright incompetent. Evidently this Inspector Clouseau-like job performance is good enough to get one a knighthood in Jolly old England.

 

[mudplugger]

Is there a link or a poster who can provide a succint timeline for the transfer, good/bad performances, and likely test dates for his in competition tests and BP tests?

If there is some naughtiness it is difficult to establish when it may have begun. My recollection of 2011 is that he had a decent start to the season with Rapha Condor Sharp (RCS), won an odd Premier but nothing consistently outstanding compared to many other riders in those races. Stepped up performance levels noticably in Aug/Sept with stage win and second overall at Leon and 5th overall and mountains jersey at Tour of Britain. Winter training then took place while still contracted to Rapha CS. Arrived at first camp with new team Endura in January? and blew the whole squad away on the climbs...which is why he went into Tour Med and Haut Var in Feb as team leader. Much stronger than guys he was not riding away from the previous Spring/Summer. Although these improvements were noted with some skepticism at the time, I believe it was attributed to things like greater commitment and training over winter, significant weight loss, longer /different types of climbs and an intention to peak for early races.

Although the rogue test may have been in Sept 2012 his significant physiological improvement came at least 9 -12 months earlier.

 

[thehog]

Torquay Herald has broken 2 stories (new info or new angle) both highly supportive of JTL, in fact more than that, positively laying out a defence for him, but both articles state the rider is not making any comment at this time. It is hard to believe that this very small regional newspaper is not acting as the PR outlet for JTL whilst not acknowledging this role.

If he can only muster the Torquay Herald, I would say he is not connected enough in the cycling world to get off this charge.

Snowden is now in touch with the Tourquay Herald.

 

[gooner]

Shane Stokes on Newstalk last night.

"When the story was first reported by the Sunday Times in September, it was said that the erroneous blood value related back to last year's Tour of Britain prior to joining Team Sky. The suggestion has been that since that blood value, things have been different," said Stokes.

"The inference was that something was going on last year and that his blood values have been more normal this year. The suggestion was that perhaps he was behaving himself this year and wasn't last year. I spoke to his Endura team manager Brian Smith and he said that he has issues with the story that was put out that the blood value came from last year's Tour of Britain. He said that Tiernan-Locke wasn't blood tested at all in last year's Tour of Britain nor was he tested in any of his races last year. He was competing for a continental team that wasn't part of the biological passport. So he failed to see how it could be the case that the Tour of Britain threw up the erroneous reading."

http://www.newstalk.ie/tiernan-locke-team-sky-reputation

 

[thehog]

Shane Stokes on Newstalk last night.



http://www.newstalk.ie/tiernan-locke-team-sky-reputation

Well if that is true it does change things substantially. My theory proves incorrect.

Appears Brailsford has been attempting to shift the blame to Endura but the kid as been dying from the dope all year.

Also someone has told Walsh a pork pie that it was the ToB.

Interesting times.

 

[Morbius]

It's hard to believe the overall winner of the ToB was not tested, whatever Brian Smith says.

 

[SundayRider]

I think its just a classic case of dope to get on a big team knowing that your chance of being caught at continental level is quite small then reign it back once you get the big contract. Simplest theory usually being the most accurate and all that.

 

[SundayRider]

Or maybe miraculously he was clean last year and the sky dope has caused the red flag and possibly the illness, more of a long shot though.