Jonathan Tiernan-Locke written to by UCI, asked to explain blood values

[Parker]

JTL was doped for the Worlds, hence why his result was annulled.

If you wish to quote the UKAD document it doesn't make any comment that he was doped in any of his races prior to the Worlds, not even the ToB (albeit lack of EPO testing). So if you wish to take the document as virtue then yes he was "clean" all of 2012 until the Worlds.

If they didn't make any comment that he was doped at the ToB, why did they annul that result then?


Point 48 of the report also says that "the abnormalities in the sample were consistent with the use of an erythopoietic stimulant which had benn discontinued approximately 10 to 14 days before the sample was taken". So not only do they actually say that he took EPO before the ToB, but also that he didn't take it after.

 

[thehog]

If they didn't make any comment that he was doped at the ToB, why did they annul that result then?

Correct, just as they annulled the result for the Worlds because he was administered drugs to enhance his performance.

According to your good self, he didn't intend to dope for the Worlds, LOL!

His post Worlds blood test showed Sky all they needed to know. This boy can be a GT rider.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Correct, just as they annulled the result for the Worlds because he was administered drugs to enhance his performance.

On a point of pedantry, he was stripped of the Worlds placing as it came after the fatal test. He was stripped of the ToB victory because, in the opinion of UKAD, the post ToB ABP test suggested he'd doped prior to the ToB.

So UKAD said he doped for the ToB, but they didn't say he doped for the Worlds.

Yes, you can argue he was still gaining an advantage at the Worlds from the pre-ToB doping, but it is inaccurate to suggest he was stripped of the Worlds place because he had doped specifically for it. And that is the inference you have repeatedly made, whether intentionally or not.

 

[thehog]

gulp...

The final verdict of UK Anti-Doping, acting in harness with cycling’s ruling body UCI, has cost South Devon’s popular racer:

1. A two-year ban which may end a brilliant career.

2. His spectacular victory in the 2012 Tour of Britain.

3. A fine of £15,400 (70% of his gross earnings in 2012)

4. Estimated expenses of another £25,000.

5. A possibly immovable stain on his reputation.

The whole case, specifically the blood test which Tiernan-Locke took between his September 2012 Tour of Britain win and his spirited ride in the World Road Race Championships in Holland a week later, rests on the ill-timed night-out in Bristol in which he celebrated with his girlfriend and mates between the two races. For UKAD ACCEPT that he went on the drinks session which his doctor said would have raised his blood-levels to an abnormal level.

But they DO NOT ACCEPT his explanation for still being dehydrated at the blood test only 32 hours later.

UKAD think it is “inconceivable” that Tiernan-Locke wouldn’t have poured water down himself between his night-out and his crucial blood-test, thereby rehydrating and restoring his blood count to more normal levels.

That’s their opinion. It’s not proven fact.

He says he didn’t go down the water route because he didn’t want to risk throwing up in front of his new GB teammates.

But on UKAD’s opinion they have convicted him of breaking anti-doping rules, to the point of accusing him of taking the dreaded EPO drug and/or using ‘blood doping’, and so banning him for two years.

By the way, EPO or ‘blood doping’ was way beyond his financial means at the time. And his Endura Racing team manager Brian Smith has always insisted that there is no way that Tiernan-Locke ‘cheated’ under his care.

No one had ever accused him of that, EPO has never been found in his system and he has never failed any drug test.

But the UCI’s biological passport rules insist that, if you fall outside their blood-level guidelines for any reason they don’t accept, you MUST have done EPO or blood-doping.

You are guilty, because you may not be able to prove you are innocent.

Tiernan-Locke may have been a silly lad. And he will always regret going out that night.

He isn’t the first professional sportsman to go out on the ‘lash’ at the wrong time, and he won’t be the last.

But that doesn’t make him a drug cheat.

The fact is that the UCI’s ‘passport’ system is on the spot almost as much as Tiernan-Locke is.

For if UKAD had gone along with his explanation of the Bristol night-out, as the cause of his blood-level blip, then it could have driven a tank regiment through the UCI’s ‘passport’ rules.

By the way, Tiernan-Locke’s case is the first that UKAD, who were in a difficult position, have had to handle under cycling’s ‘passport’ system.

Let’s face it, if this case were to go before a court of law, it would be thrown out faster than a Mark Cavendish sprint.

http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/UKA...ist-Jonathan/story-22795346-detail/story.html

 

[del1962]

I'm actually not following what you're saying.
.....
Perhaps the conflict is within yourself?

Here is where you did not stick to facts

I'm not sure the relevance of the question.

What we do know from fact is that JTL doped with the BC team under Brailsford at the Worlds and most likely at the Tour of Britain.

Do I take it you wish to argue with the facts?

No the facts are the UKAD document says he doped for the TOB, theHog caught lying again, it is what you do , that is why you are a waste if time who is only interested in conflict.

 

[SundayRider]

gulp...





http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/UKA...ist-Jonathan/story-22795346-detail/story.html

In the interview he hasn't said 'I'm clean and don't dope, never have' or something similar. All he has said is 'It will be hard to clear my name, would cost too much, probably still be found guilty'. Quite telling.

 

[the sceptic]

gulp...





http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/UKA...ist-Jonathan/story-22795346-detail/story.html

the sad thing is taht the bots reading that will think its true.

 

[TheSpud]

Re the blood bags - if you've read the description of Landis and Leiphiemer's DIY transfusions in Juliet Macur's book it's not exactly a highly expensive procedure.

It would have to be a bag though wouldn't it? I mean v high Hemo and almost no Retics. I though the EPO microdose was to get the retics up and fool the off-score?

 

[thehog]

Here is where you did not stick to facts

I am not suprised you can't follow, which village do you come from, they are missing an idiot

No the facts are the UKAD document says he doped for the TOB, theHog caught lying again, it is what you do , that is why you are a waste if time who is only interested in conflict.

Calling another poster an idoit, changing their posts adding to words like "troll" is not causing conflict?

And its "waste of time", not "waste if time".

I've reported your post, mind you. You're not interested in engaging in mature debate. Just personal insults and conflict when another has an alternate opinion than yours.

I will leave it here.

 

[Catwhoorg]

It would have to be a bag though wouldn't it? I mean v high Hemo and almost no Retics. I though the EPO microdose was to get the retics up and fool the off-score?

There are at least two mechanisms for such low ret%, with high HCT, which aren't mutually exclusive, he could conceivable done some EPO boosting, AND dropped a blood bag.

Dosing significant amounts of EPO, getting the HCT up, then suddenly stopping. The EPO use has suppressed the natural production of EPO. New red cell production crashes, low ret%

Dropping a bag, boosting HCT to a level which suppresses new red cell production.


As you said, the microdose of EPO in conjunction with the blood bag, is after taking the bag, to keep some new red cell production going such you don't get flagged for a super-high offscore like 155.

OFF Score = Hb x 10 – 60 (square root of the reticulocyte %)

SQRT 0.15 = 0.387
SQRT 0.30 = 0.547
SQRT 0.50 = 0.707

Its the super- super low ret% that got him into such trouble.

I have little doubt that the doctors around this sport have taken notes and will be reinforcing this message to their clients.
Don't suddenly stop your EPO
Don't forget to micro-dose after a bag


Natural selection of doping, one gets busted, others learn from his mistake, making it harder and harder to keep ahead of them.

 

[jens_attacks]

free le JTL!!!!

let them party like it's 1995!

those interviews after the wins were da bomb from JTL,luved them


jesse pinkman on a bicycle. those were the days

 

[thehog]

the sad thing is taht the bots reading that will think its true.

I don't disagree, this is a terriable article.

I think the bots have written JTL off as an Endura problem. So its ok to throw a small UK team under the bus.

Tiernan-Locke, who hasn’t had the support of Team Sky, can’t mount a similar appeal. He can’t afford it.

The former star of Kingsteignton’s Mid-Devon CC has always supported the fight against drugs in cycling and even the passport programme itself.

It can only be a matter of time before someone somewhere forces the UCI to change or adjust those rules, but it will be too late for Tiernan-Locke, a man whose explosive climbing talent made him one of the most popular riders in the country.

We have now lost him to the sport, at least for another 16 months. And very possibly for ever.

When you think of all the dreadful things going on in the world, tragedy is perhaps too big a word to describe the Tiernan-Locke Affair. But it’s a dreadful shame.

 

[jens_attacks]

can we send money for JTL's lawyer?
if you guys are ok, you send them to me and me to JTL. i will give some to kimmage too. all good

UCI, adjust those damn rules, he only had an off score of over 9000

here is dr. zorzoli looking at JTL values:

 

[SundayRider]

I don't disagree, this is a terriable article.

I think the bots have written JTL off as an Endura problem. So its ok to throw a small UK team under the bus.

It doesn't look good for Sky either way its spun.

 

[Kicker661]

Which suggests that the target for his doping was the Tour of the Britain and the effects lasting through to the Worlds was just a bonus.

My blood would be up 3 weeks after stopping supplements and then drop off a cliff. Depends what he was using though.

TOB 9th-16th September. The World's were on the 23rd September correct?

If one were to take the last shot on 9th September you would still be elevated until around the 30th September give or take.

IMO Parker is on the money here.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

My blood would be up 3 weeks after stopping supplements and then drop off a cliff. Depends what he was using though.

TOB 9th-16th September. The World's were on the 23rd September correct?

If one were to take the last shot on 9th September you would still be elevated until around the 30th September give or take.

IMO Parker is on the money here.

Now work back from a decline to 17.9g/dL Hgb for 2 weeks.

Frightening.

If they told us his "natural" level we could even do a basic straight line extrapolation, but even 16.5 (ie 50% hct) means he was potentially a couple of g/dL higher. Where each g/dL equates to around 3 Hct points.

 

[Kicker661]

Now work back from a decline to 17.9g/dL Hgb for 2 weeks.

Frightening.

If they told us his "natural" level we could even do a basic straight line extrapolation, but even 16.5 (ie 50% hct) means he was potentially a couple of g/dL higher. Where each g/dL equates to around 3 Hct points.

At an estimate, if i raised my H count by 5 points at peak then 3 weeks later i would suggest something like 4-5 points pullback on H count. If you raised it by 4 points then a 3-4 point pullback.

The 3rd week really feels like a cliff.

You guys are the data masters and have all the dates so work from 4 points increase from base, 9th September last shot, 3 weeks later hard decline, 4 weeks base level. Using the assumption he stopped completely.

It doesn't sound like he had much money so using EPO would probably be out of the budget unless be saved like crazy or had someone else pay. AAS is the cheap man's EPO in which case if his H count was 54% then i'd say his base is somewhere around 49/50.

 

[thehog]

Now work back from a decline to 17.9g/dL Hgb for 2 weeks.

Frightening.

If they told us his "natural" level we could even do a basic straight line extrapolation, but even 16.5 (ie 50% hct) means he was potentially a couple of g/dL higher. Where each g/dL equates to around 3 Hct points.

Dear Wiggo, question; how did they come up with the timeframe to assume the "usage" date?

ie UKAD estimated 10-14 days prior to the day of the test.

How is the timeframe derived?

 

[Merckx index]

Dear Wiggo, question; how did they come up with the timeframe to assume the "usage" date?

ie UKAD estimated 10-14 days prior to the day of the test.

How is the timeframe derived?

Very good question.

I have seen your facts before, one of that there was no evidence JTL doped prior to signing for Sky, this fact of yours fly directkly in the face of what is set out in the UKAD doping document which says he doped 10-14 days prior to the test.

Point 48 of the report also says that "the abnormalities in the sample were consistent with the use of an erythopoietic stimulant which had benn discontinued approximately 10 to 14 days before the sample was taken". So not only do they actually say that he took EPO before the ToB, but also that he didn't take it after.

On a point of pedantry, he was stripped of the Worlds placing as it came after the fatal test. He was stripped of the ToB victory because, in the opinion of UKAD, the post ToB ABP test suggested he'd doped prior to the ToB.

None of you seems to understand that offering an explanation that is consistent with the known facts is not the same as saying that explanation is definitely what happened, nor does it rule out the possibility that both that explanation and another one might simultaneously be true.

When it comes to passport irregularities, it’s almost always the case that more than one scenario is consistent with the data. UKAD apparently leaned towards the idea that JTL took EPO some time before the passport sample was withdrawn. Maybe he took it in conjunction with a transfusion, in order to keep his retics up, and they subsequently declined when he stopped taking EPO but had a high and retic-suppressive HT. Or maybe he just took EPO, and as Cat notes, his retics declined following cessation of the EPO.

I haven’t read the report, but AFAIK, there is no evidence against the alternative possibility that he transfused just prior to the Worlds. It’s pretty hard to argue that the only possible explanation for a very low value of retics at some point in time is a manipulation 10-14 days earlier. In fact, based on the studies I've seen, I question whether a massive decline in retics occurs following cessation of EPO. Typically, when you give a subject EPO, retics spike followed by a slower, more sustained rise in HT, followed by a fall in retics. But the retics don't necessarily fall below their original level, at least not within two weeks. E.g, check out Figure 2 in this article. I really am not seeing how a very low retic level is a very strong indicator of EPO use rather than blood transfusion.

So why did they conclude it was EPO earlier and not a blood bag later? It doesn't seem that this conclusion could be based on any scientific evidence. Maybe they thought transfusion would be too costly or inconvenient for him. Or maybe, this is a cynical view, they wanted to nail him for the TOB as well as the Worlds.

 

[gillan1969]

Very good question.







None of you seems to understand that offering an explanation that is consistent with the known facts is not the same as saying that explanation is definitely what happened, nor does it rule out the possibility that both that explanation and another one might simultaneously be true.

When it comes to passport irregularities, it’s almost always the case that more than one scenario is consistent with the data. UKAD apparently leaned towards the idea that JTL took EPO some time before the passport sample was withdrawn. Maybe he took it in conjunction with a transfusion, in order to keep his retics up, and they subsequently declined when he stopped taking EPO but had a high and retic-suppressive HT. Or maybe he just took EPO, and as Cat notes, his retics declined following cessation of the EPO.

I haven’t read the report, but AFAIK, there is no evidence against the alternative possibility that he transfused just prior to the Worlds. It’s pretty hard to argue that the only possible explanation for a very low value of retics at some point in time is a manipulation 10-14 days earlier. In fact, based on the studies I've seen, I question whether a massive decline in retics occurs following cessation of EPO. Typically, when you give a subject EPO, retics spike followed by a slower, more sustained rise in HT, followed by a fall in retics. But the retics don't necessarily fall below their original level, at least not within two weeks. E.g, check out Figure 2 in this article. I really am not seeing how a very low retic level is a very strong indicator of EPO use rather than blood transfusion.

So why did they conclude it was EPO earlier and not a blood bag later? It doesn't seem that this conclusion could be based on any scientific evidence. Maybe they thought transfusion would be too costly or inconvenient for him. Or maybe, this is a cynical view, they wanted to nail him for the TOB as well as the Worlds.

exactly...and ToB versus world road race champs as team leader...now let me think...which might be the bigger target??

 

[fmk_RoI]

I haven’t read the report, but

If only you'd opened with that...

 

[Avoriaz]

exactly...and ToB versus world road race champs as team leader...now let me think...which might be the bigger target??

The one that a professional thinks he has a better chance of winning

 

[fmk_RoI]

exactly...and ToB versus world road race champs as team leader...now let me think...which might be the bigger target??

Well with JTL it appears to have been the ToB as it was after that win that Sky actually committed to signing him. If they'd wanted his World's performance to be the deal-maker they would have held the contract over another week.

 

[gillan1969]

merckx index doesn't need me to defend him but the points he raises are irrespective of the details of the report...his point is broader

and re the the target...you guys (avoriaz and fmk_rol) obviously don't race, or if you do you must get off on beating up on sportive riders ;-)

 

[timmers]

Why does he need help ?

EPO (if that's what he took) is not a controlled drug in the UK.
It literally can be got by mail order, a single course is not expensive on its own.
(You can google it yourself I'm not providing links)

HGH also not controlled (neither are most designer peptides).

Get to steroids and those are controlled drugs, so a little harder to get, but really not by much, but at least the police will get involved and talk with the anti-doping authorities here.

If he dropped a blood bag, then there may be a bit more need of some first hand advice/experience, but really not by that much. Knowing how to store it is the key thing.

Well it is has been claimed that it is easy and cheap. So how much will a course of EPO cost me and who do I ask on how to take it? As a UCI licence holder I do not want to search for these topics as they are against the rules.

Lastly will you guarantee, if I take EPO, as you prescribe, that I will win every race I want to?

Thanks. I hope to be in the UK next year and I have some races I would like to win!