JV and Garmin - paragons of cleanER?

[pmcg76]

I don't remember it that way. Hell I'm getting old.

I guess some would still hold it against JV for not helping out Floyd when they knew he was in desperate need. Makes JV look in some folks eyes as a hypocrite. Just my 2 cents.

Also why in the end do all those guys get a pass? We know they were all juiced and all of them were hiding it, regardless of pressure. They did not have the balls to make a stand.

Why would you make a stand if it meant taking a nice two year vacation. People are selfish and will always think of themselves first, human nature.

Why would anyone risk putting their career on the line for someone who had ****ed up time after time and had zero credibility. It is all fine and well to take the moral high ground on a forum and expect others to take a grenade but I would bet 99% of posters would not risk their own careers just to show support for someone else, especially when the hole they were in was of their own making.

 

[Digger]

Why would you make a stand if it meant taking a nice two year vacation. People are selfish and will always think of themselves first, human nature.

Why would anyone risk putting their career on the line for someone who had ****ed up time after time and had zero credibility. It is all fine and well to take the moral high ground on a forum and expect others to take a grenade but I would bet 99% of posters would not risk their own careers just to show support for someone else, especially when the hole they were in was of their own making.

just so you know - those same guys who sh** on him should have been thanking him - because he could have brought it all down, including them, a lot sooner. So a modicum of gratitude for preserving their livelihoods wouldn't have gone astray.
As regards zero credibility - they knew the truth.

 

[pmcg76]

The six month thing is and was a disgrace...at one stage it was zero months - and they even got to ride that years tour - along with George.

Then we had Christian moaning how hard his 'suspension' was as it meant missing a training camp....unreal.

But hey they got lance - who cares right

Then maybe take it up with those who gave out the 6 month suspensions. You act like it was Garmin who handed out those suspensions.

Is it fair that there are countless other riders who never served a suspension of any sort or even had their name tarnished by doping. Fernando Escartin anyone. Not really, but then whoever said life was fair.

 

[Digger]

Then maybe take it up with those who gave out the 6 month suspensions. You act like it was Garmin who handed out those suspensions.
Is it fair that there are countless other riders who never served a suspension of any sort or even had their name tarnished by doping. Fernando Escartin anyone. Not really, but then whoever said life was fair.

Well funny you should say that - because in between my apparent JV and Sky obsession, I have spoken a lot about Travis and spoke to Paul Kimmage about it.

 

[pmcg76]

just so you know - those same guys who sh** on him should have been thanking him - because he could have brought it all down, including them, a lot sooner. So a modicum of gratitude for preserving their livelihoods wouldn't have gone astray.
As regards zero credibility - they knew the truth.

Of course they knew the truth but in the publics eye, Floyd was toxic.

You make Floyd out to be some sort of hero in those whole story, if the shoe had been on the other foot, do you think Floyd would have been so noble? From a guy who had the Floyd fairness fund and doesn't regret doping?

It is like this, without Floyd, the investigation into Lance might never have been started but without the Garmin boys, the investigation might never have shown any results.

 

[pmcg76]

Well funny you should say that - because in between my apparent JV and Sky obsession, I have spoken a lot about Travis and spoke to Paul Kimmage about it.

And what have you achieved in doing so?

Floyd squealed because he had no other option. He had ****ed himself. As I said if Floyd had been in the Garmin position, he would have done the same and take the 6 month suspension if in fact he would have talked at all.

 

[Digger]

Of course they knew the truth but in the publics eye, Floyd was toxic.

You make Floyd out to be some sort of hero in those whole story, if the shoe had been on the other foot, do you think Floyd would have been so noble? From a guy who had the Floyd fairness fund and doesn't regret doping?

It is like this, without Floyd, the investigation into Lance might never have been started but without the Garmin boys, the investigation might never have shown any results.

In JV's own words from Walsh's book - landis is the most non-hypocritical people I know....With Simeoni he refused to chase down...

One thing I can say with certain, he would not have done what they did In the press.

You say it might not have started - exactly how else would it have?

 

[Digger]

And what have you achieved in doing so?

Floyd squealed because he had no other option. He had ****ed himself. As I said if Floyd had been in the Garmin position, he would have done the same and take the 6 month suspension if in fact he would have talked at all.

How do you mean he had no other option?

One option he did have was to say nothing and keep himself from going to prison...something his lawyers warned him could happen...so this Millar line, he had no option or had nothing left to lose is ridiculous.


You seem very definite about what Floyd would or would not have done...either you know him and have asked him this, or you are making this up...ironic considering your posts to me today.

 

[pmcg76]

In JV's own words from Walsh's book - landis is the most non-hypocritical people I know....With Simeoni he refused to chase down...

One thing I can say with certain, he would not have done what they did In the press.

You say it might not have started - exactly how else would it have?

Really, Landis is not hypociritcal but he allowed a fund to be started in his name that was a complete fraud?

I don't get it, Floyd got the ball rolling and the Garmin boys kicked it into the goal without whom it might not have even reached the goal. Not sure how that is hard to understand.

 

[pmcg76]

How do you mean he had no other option?

One option he did have was to say nothing and keep himself from going to prison...something his lawyers warned him could happen...so this Millar line, he had no option or had nothing left to lose is ridiculous.


You seem very definite about what Floyd would or would not have done...either you know him and have asked him this, or you are making this up...ironic considering your posts to me today.

Your right I don't know any of these characters personally but then again I doubt you know them that well either. I am not definite about anything, it is all hypothetical situations but then you know this already.

How much would be prepared to bet that Floyd would have behaved differently in a different situation.

 

[Digger]

Your right I don't know any of these characters personally but then again I doubt you know them that well either. I am not definite about anything, it is all hypothetical situations but then you know this already.

How much would be prepared to bet that Floyd would have behaved differently in a different situation.

Why??????????

 

[pmcg76]

Why??????????

Well how long have you spent in the company of Floyd? If you don't give a proper answer, I will just assume you are talking BS.

 

[MarkvW]

On May, 20, 2010 Floyd underwent his joyous conversion to public truth. On June, 10, 2010, Floyd filed his qui tam, seeking to convert that truth into millions of dollars.

I can do without the holier than thou hypocrisy talk.

 

[djpbaltimore]

On May, 20, 2010 Floyd underwent his joyous conversion to public truth. On June, 10, 2010, Floyd filed his qui tam, seeking to convert that truth into millions of dollars.

I can do without the holier than thou hypocrisy talk.

I think this gets to a bigger point and bears repeating. There are so many shades of gray in terms of ethics. Hero (Floyd) and villain (JV) is oftentimes a false dichotomy.

 

[Digger]

because I don't like Digger. Pretty simple. I think he is the very embodiment of the hypocrisy he runs around complaining about.

I like Alberto, I think he’s a nice guy and an unbelievable talent (JV)

haha!!!!!!!

 

[pmcg76]

haha!!!!!!!

Hasn't Paul Kimmage said that he likes David Millar.

Maybe it's time you drew Kimmage into your big net of hypocrites.

 

[Digger]

Hasn't Paul Kimmage said that he likes David Millar.

Maybe it's time you drew Kimmage into your big net of hypocrites.

he has also slated millar for those words on landis - said it's a big black mark

 

[sniper]

villain (JV)

As far as i can tell, in the cycling world at large (including mainstream cycling media), JV is actually seen as the anti-doping hero he makes himself out to be.
Him posting in here actually strengthens that image.
He's not seldom praised for engaging with fans on the interweb.
JV knows what he's doing.

 

[pmcg76]

he has also slated millar for those words on landis - said it's a big black mark

So Kimmage likes Millar despite his doping and dodgy remarks and JV likes Contador on a personal level despite his doping, and the difference is???

 

[Digger]

So Kimmage likes Millar despite his doping and dodgy remarks and JV likes Contador on a personal level despite his doping, and the difference is???

and you know I haven't addressed this with Paul?

 

[yespatterns]

Why all the mockery from Digger and Sniper? I think JV provides some interesting data points whether you believe him or not. No need to drive off an inside viewpoint with insults.

 

[pmcg76]

and you know I haven't addressed this with Paul?

Well considering how you never answered my question on how much time you have spent with Floyd, I don't really see the point in bothering with what you might or might not have done.

Every time you are asked something, the response seems to be "how do you know I haven't done that". Man up and put it out there instead of expecting people to try and guess what you do.

As I said, if you have some actual info, bring it to the table instead of this childish "Oh, JV said he likes Contador, JV mentioned Indurain". If that is what constitues evidence of wrongdoing, then there is truly no hope for anti-doping. As I said before, everyone in cycling can be made out to be a hypocrite based on your standards.

I would say I have brought more inside info about JV and his team based on what I have l gained from my 'insider soucers' than you have managed in your last 20 posts on the subject.

 

[ChrisE]

On May, 20, 2010 Floyd underwent his joyous conversion to public truth. On June, 10, 2010, Floyd filed his qui tam, seeking to convert that truth into millions of dollars.

I can do without the holier than thou hypocrisy talk.

Of course, after the blast reply to my post on DPF in fall of 2006 about taking GL down in a race to the bottom, which was a reference to future actions in exposing GL's abuse. After his PM's on DPF and his posts proclaiming his innocence, all the while bilking rubes in FFF. After even now when he admits to doping with everything but the kitchen sink in the 2006 TdF, but not testosterone. What a coincidence. He finds a conscious when his options for employment dry up, all the while admitting he doesn't regret doping and digger is here on the forum vouching for FL's character if he was in CVV's shoes. What a crock of **** the last 20 pages of this thread has become.

To slam JV for not running his mouth about dopers, while he is still in the sport, is ludicrous. Nobody would do that in his shoes, but it is easy to say they would behind a keyboard with no skin in the game.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Well unlike others, the reason I give JV credence is that from the start of Slipstream in 2008 he was clear about dopers on his team. He never set out with this mantra of "we will have no contact with dopers" which many have tried to associate him with since.

When the team was launched in Boulder, Vaughters said there would be riders on the team who had doped in the past but there would be no doping whilst at his team. Period. As far as he was concerned, the past was the past and everyone started with a clean sheet with him. He never hid this and was quite open about it, was reported in articles so hardly secretive.

And yet the excuse he used whilst at USPS - that the Sysmex machines were not calibrated properly, still needs to be trotted out now to explain the unexpected blood values his riders display.

In 2008 Millars retics were off the charts.

In 2009, Wiggo's 2nd rest day Hgb jumped.
In 2012, Ryders did the same thing at the same time.

Hiding in plain sight comes to mind.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Why all the mockery from Digger and Sniper? I think JV provides some interesting data points whether you believe him or not. No need to drive off an inside viewpoint with insults.

+1 It's more data.