JV and Garmin - paragons of cleanER?

[Benotti69]

All the times JV has posted here he has not demonstrated, with facts, that the sport has indeed gotten to a point where so called clean athletes can compete and win the big races.

Anti doping is still a joke and Cookson has shown how serious he is about it that he will not be making announcements, but that will appear on a page deep somewhere within the UCI website.

Cookson made a lot of promises about what he would do. He is in the sport 11months. Anti doping was to be a priority to bring credibility to the sport. That has not happened.

So again, for those defending so called clean team Garmin, why and how could could they be clean in a dirty sport. 2 Monuments and a GT does not seem possible to be won cleanly, when so many teams are out there plying their trade in the manner which they have done so for so many years.

JV is, IMO, pulling our legs because he can and he gets a kick out of it.

At the end of the day professional cycling is a sport where sponsors (investors) want a return, ie podiums and more importantly wins. To achieve that goal one must pull out all the stops. It is a business to JV, it is how he earns a living, same as for Riis, Martinelli, Lefevere etc etc.

We may wish for a clean sport, but until proper amounts of money is put into proper independent anti doping we are being laughed at from a height.

JV, i dare say gets his kicks pulling 12 posters legs in an echo chamber. Whatever turns him on is fine, but he talks the talk as is the business minded thing to, but remember the sport does not walk the walk when it comes to anti doping.

JV may be a nice guy, great, but so is Indurain and loads of other unrepentant dopers. This does not mean they cannot be called out on their cheating!

Also for those crying about so called abuse JV is getting, grow up, he is a business man and what he gets in here is kindergarden school stuff compared to what real world throws!

I have not seen too much inside info coming from JV for all the time he spends in here. Lots of obfuscation, abuse and name calling from JV, but not many nuggets nor would i expect any, as his competitors no doubt read his posts. It then begs the question why does JV post? becuase as i said it appears to be an itch he likes to scratch and play with the clinic 12. Take it with a pinch of salt or maybe a glass of your favourite dram, say Bruichladdich

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Transition phase, isn't that what the English national football (soccer) team has been going through for the past 44 years?

I think the English have finally arrived at Rooney......

 

[Digger]

If hypocrisy is what annoys people, could you point to someone connected with cycling who is not a hypocrite?

I said this before to Digger but what is the difference in JV liking Contador and Kimmage liking Millar. Kimmage is considered the biggest anti-doping advocate ever, yet he likes Millar. That is the exact same hypocrisy as Digger is hitting JV with. Has Digger called out Kimmage in public, he says he has talked with Kimmage about it but how is that any more verifiable than some of the stuff JV posts.

In that recent documentary, Kimmage went back to the Tour and sat in the company of many of the other former riders, I am guessing many of them were dopers and Kimmage was happy to do so. How is that not hypocritical.

Digger claims he "knows" Floyd and I asked him much time he has spent in the company of Floyd. It was ignored. Having a twitter conversaton doesn't mean you know someone. Digger see's himself as some sort of insider but puts forward very little inside info.The problem with Digger and plenty more posters here is that they can only see things in black and white so everything is hypocritical yet they are unable to see their own hypocrisies when it comes to certain things.

As regards Kimmage, you have no idea what I have or haven't argued with him on in private.
I don't even know what twitter account Floyd landis runs...if you do know please fill us all in...it's funny though to read this post above, it's filled with the same suppositions and assumptions you criticise me for.
The landis question you ask is funny - it's the equivalent of a d*** comparison competition...under a certain amount of time means I am telling lies is it? What about if I am within the five minute cut off point? But I need to tell you all this, and the kimmage stuff, to placate someone like you to show I am not telling lies - but no matter what I say you won't believe it.

Dr Mas called me more or less the same thing as you last year for what I said about steve Johnson - I said he (steve) knew in 2004...time showed who was right....it will again.

For now I have no more to say to or about Vaughters.

He said some really really nice things in from lance to landis, not just the quote I gave last night.
His initial posts on here about two months ago on froome were good - I thought you know what fair play. He's said as much as he can...and I can ask no more...but then the posts two or three days later did infuriate me no doubt.
I also concede that dealing with a muppet like Millar isn't easy.

 

[hrotha]

he tried to hire contador.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1073988&postcount=2063

You guys are reaching.

 

[gooner]

Why not tell us then in relation to Kimmage? You had no problem in disclosing a conversation with Walsh without being asked.

You criticise JV, Danielson, Hesjesdal, CVV, Zabriskie but admire Bruyneel, Ricco and Di Luca. You have a go at Tygart and then say Di Luca spoke a bit of sense about legalising doping.

It took 3 times with Di Luca before he got booted out from the sport. Even the second time he should have been gone but got his ban reduced significantly while afterwards saying he didn't spit in the soup for it to happen. What utter tosh on his part and this is someone you put on a pedestal. Nevertheless he still gets a ride at Katusha.

 

[Digger]

Why not tell us then in relation to Kimmage? You had no problem in disclosing a conversation with Walsh without being asked.

You criticise JV, Danielson, Hesjesdal, CVV, Zabriskie but admire Bruyneel, Ricco and Di Luca. You have a go at Tygart and then say Di Luca spoke a bit of sense about legalising doping.

It took 3 times with Di Luca before he got booted out from the sport. Even the second time he should have been gone but got his ban reduced significantly while afterwards saying he didn't spit in the soup for it to happen. What utter tosh on his part and this is someone you put on a pedestal. Nevertheless he still gets a ride at Katusha.

English please.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Of course, after the blast reply to my post on DPF in fall of 2006 about taking GL down in a race to the bottom, which was a reference to future actions in exposing GL's abuse. After his PM's on DPF and his posts proclaiming his innocence, all the while bilking rubes in FFF. After even now when he admits to doping with everything but the kitchen sink in the 2006 TdF, but not testosterone. What a coincidence. He finds a conscious when his options for employment dry up, all the while admitting he doesn't regret doping and digger is here on the forum vouching for FL's character if he was in CVV's shoes. What a crock of **** the last 20 pages of this thread has become.

To slam JV for not running his mouth about dopers, while he is still in the sport, is ludicrous. Nobody would do that in his shoes, but it is easy to say they would behind a keyboard with no skin in the game.

I remember the race to the bottom post. Did they take it down over at the DPF? I also remember the mysterious server outage. When the forum came back online there were a few days posts missing.

I still can't blame Floyd for at least trying to gain employment with say JV or LA etc. Everyone was in on the game / programs. I don't find Floyd's actions all that egregious as some. I thought what Tyler and his EX done to be pretty bad, remember the ideas to collect money from fans for a defense came from or at least in my opinion came from TH situation. At least Floyd did not come onto my TV set during tour time and talk about Tugboat and how he was innocent and the sport was out to get him.

 

[Digger]

I remember the race to the bottom post. Did they take it down over at the DPF? I also remember the mysterious server outage. When the forum came back online there were a few days posts missing.

I still can't blame Floyd for at least trying to gain employment with say JV or LA etc. Everyone was in on the game / programs. I don't find Floyd's actions all that egregious as some. I thought what Tyler and his EX done to be pretty bad, remember the ideas to collect money from fans for a defense came from or at least in my opinion came from TH situation. At least Floyd did not come onto my TV set during tour time and talk about Tugboat and how he was innocent and the sport was out to get him.

Well Floyd spent the money he received from the fund on exactly what he said he would - legal fees - unlike tyler....

 

[djpbaltimore]

As far as i can tell, in the cycling world at large (including mainstream cycling media), JV is actually seen as the anti-doping hero he makes himself out to be.
Him posting in here actually strengthens that image.
He's not seldom praised for engaging with fans on the interweb.
JV knows what he's doing.

I stand by my original point. Portraying JV as the hero and Floyd as the villain is no more an accurate representation of reality than the reverse. I personally think the anti-doping stance of JV is at least partially (if not wholly) PR, so I agree with most of your post. Strangely enough, reading what he has to deal with here with the Gotcha questions and personal histrionics has made him a more sympathetic figure in my eyes. Overall, I would rather read what he has to say and take it with a grain of salt than badger him out of posting entirely.

 

[Gavandope]

I stand by my original point. Portraying JV as the hero and Floyd as the villain is no more an accurate representation of reality than the reverse. I personally think the anti-doping stance of JV is at least partially (if not wholly) PR, so I agree with most of your post. Strangely enough, reading what he has to deal with here with the Gotcha questions and personal histrionics has made him a more sympathetic figure in my eyes. Overall, I would rather read what he has to say and take it with a grain of salt than badger him out of posting entirely.

There's only one true villain ever been in cycling - one who broke the law to hide his lies, get the feds off his back and hopefully will end up totally broke unless he tells all. Everyone else is a victim since the EPO/BB era as unlike roids in cycling it's truly a massive performance enhancement, a game changer for endurance events like no other ever.

I always thought JV was a pragmatist and realist as far as doping is concerned with what I've read and heard before I even came here because that is the reality we live in. If he isn't a fan of Feynman like I am I would be truly shocked. Having been only a fraction of the way through this huge thread I don't see anything to change my mind so far, in fact I'd say when I've finally finished I bet it's the total reinforcement of it.

So I hope he doesnt get hounded out of here - to have intelligent debate with a clear, consise and realistic approach to doping in professional cycling is something you lot here all have to lot to feel fortunate about.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

to have intelligent debate with a clear, consise and realistic approach to doping in professional cycling is something you lot here all have to lot to feel fortunate about.

What is it we are debating exactly?
ie what is the opposing side's argument? And the for?

 

[Gavandope]

What is it we are debating exactly?
ie what is the opposing side's argument? And the for?

I wish I knew yet - I still have about 6500 posts to get to the end! There are limits to what he can and cannot answer rationally and concisely as someone can running a team in pro cycling. His 'laws of physics' commenting on a public forum about doping.

I think this all will turn out far more interesting to read than tinkov's twitter easily

 

[del1962]

There is a real football thread in the cafe

 

[Afrank]

There is a real football thread in the cafe

And posts have been duly moved there.

 

[Gavandope]

And posts have been duly moved there.

I said thanks there and thanks now again. I can discuss many topics aside from cycling and equally passionate about all of them.

 

[MarkvW]

I stand by my original point. Portraying JV as the hero and Floyd as the villain is no more an accurate representation of reality than the reverse. I personally think the anti-doping stance of JV is at least partially (if not wholly) PR, so I agree with most of your post. Strangely enough, reading what he has to deal with here with the Gotcha questions and personal histrionics has made him a more sympathetic figure in my eyes. Overall, I would rather read what he has to say and take it with a grain of salt than badger him out of posting entirely.

Vaughters is working to improve cycling for his own financial benefit. Floyd is working to sue Lance Armstrong for his own financial benefit. Both are seeking good outcomes. This is a tie.

Both have been frauds in the past (helping Armstrong). Floyd's frauds were massive, though (cheating to win the TDF and the Floyd Fraudness Fund). Floyd wins this one hands down.

Floyd wins on outrageous behavior for his behavior to LeMond.
.
Floyd is clearly grosser than Vaughters. Neither rises to the villain category, though.

 

[Gavandope]

Vaughters is working to improve cycling for his own financial benefit. Floyd is working to sue Lance Armstrong for his own financial benefit. Both are seeking good outcomes. This is a tie.

Both have been frauds in the past (helping Armstrong). Floyd's frauds were massive, though (cheating to win the TDF and the Floyd Fraudness Fund). Floyd wins this one hands down.

Floyd wins on outrageous behavior for his behavior to LeMond.
.
Floyd is clearly grosser than Vaughters. Neither rises to the villain category, though.

Of course he is, I classify JV as a social capitalist and we have far too few of these in the world as it is. I hope he gets to the top by actually helping the sport along the way.

Floyd is just crazy full stop - I like mavericks like him and his nuke to LA and the sport was a game changer, couldn't have happened without him. The other great things about him apart from that mental climb in 2006 which was Pantani-esque is he is an awful, terrible liar. "I'll say no" had me laughing a lot, nearly as much as Wiggo did with "winkers etc" in 2012

 

[D-Queued]

Well Floyd spent the money he received from the fund on exactly what he said he would - legal fees - unlike tyler....

Audit/source please.

You are defending the indefensible, whitewashing the massive fraud perpetuated, and trying to shift blame/change the subject.

The Floyd fraud was massive. Period.

In terms of creating and promoting a lie it competes with the number one liar himself. Alone it is one of the ugliest moments in all of sport, not just cycling.

Dave.

 

[Gavandope]

Audit/source please.

You are defending the indefensible, whitewashing the massive fraud perpetuated, and trying to shift blame/change the subject.

The Floyd fraud was massive. Period.

In terms of creating and promoting a lie it competes with the number one liar himself. Alone it is one of the ugliest moments in all of sport, not just cycling.

Dave.

It was a huge deception by him but still way off número uno by miles. I will refrain from ranting about the comparison - but if he gets paid out by the whistleblower suit I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he refunds the sheep who fell for the load of rubbish he wrote that they bought in droves. Though none of you lot here did fall for it surely - that climb and the "I'll say no" must have been a bang to rights doping confession for all of you!

 

[sniper]

Audit/source please.

You are defending the indefensible, whitewashing the massive fraud perpetuated, and trying to shift blame/change the subject.

The Floyd fraud was massive. Period.

In terms of creating and promoting a lie it competes with the number one liar himself. Alone it is one of the ugliest moments in all of sport, not just cycling.

Dave.

Dave, we both know what time it is so let's not beat around the bush.
Wiggo and Hesjedal doped to get their GT results. Sky doped to get their results. Isn't Vaughters' clean cycling campaign the least bit disturbing to you?
In your view, how does the Vaughters/Garmin lie compare to Landis?

 

[RownhamHill]

It was a huge deception by him but still way off número uno by miles. I will refrain from ranting about the comparison - but if he gets paid out by the whistleblower suit I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he refunds the sheep who fell for the load of rubbish he wrote that they bought in droves. Though none of you lot here did fall for it surely - that climb and the "I'll say no" must have been a bang to rights doping confession for all of you!

I wouldn't be surprised either - when he got prosecuted for fraud a couple of years back, didn't he avoid prison on the basis that he would pay back the monies when he could?

 

[Elagabalus]

Sniper, even you should realise several people commented on Snipers words, so JV is hardly alone in not liking Diggers tone.

And for the record, I'm not seeing much merit in it either.

I know you want a witch hunt where JV spills beans, hurts colleagues, hurts friends and then gets tossed out of the sport for good. I don't see what good would come from that. It's extremely easy to demand a moral stand when you have no stake in it.

And on him dedicating his life to fight doping. Well, Garmin is supposedly to be his vision for an anti-doping team. Nobody can deny Garmin is his life. It's grandstanding, but not beyond reason. He has an image to sell, as does any executive in the world.

Somehow people here don't realise that JV is also responsible for everyone depending on the team. He needs to monetarize himself and his team, otherwise there will be people being unemployed. And that goes beyond the riders.

Oh, Franklin, there you go again thinking about this logically. Don't you know that JV's concept for team clean is just a clever marketing strategy-like Kawasaki is team green. JV never intended to do internal testing. He figured out a way to hire old dopers (for cheap) and let's them run wild!

 

[Elagabalus]

All the times JV has posted here he has not demonstrated, with facts, that the sport has indeed gotten to a point where so called clean athletes can compete and win the big races.

Anti doping is still a joke and Cookson has shown how serious he is about it that he will not be making announcements, but that will appear on a page deep somewhere within the UCI website.

Cookson made a lot of promises about what he would do. He is in the sport 11months. Anti doping was to be a priority to bring credibility to the sport. That has not happened.

So again, for those defending so called clean team Garmin, why and how could could they be clean in a dirty sport. 2 Monuments and a GT does not seem possible to be won cleanly, when so many teams are out there plying their trade in the manner which they have done so for so many years.

JV is, IMO, pulling our legs because he can and he gets a kick out of it.

At the end of the day professional cycling is a sport where sponsors (investors) want a return, ie podiums and more importantly wins. To achieve that goal one must pull out all the stops. It is a business to JV, it is how he earns a living, same as for Riis, Martinelli, Lefevere etc etc.

We may wish for a clean sport, but until proper amounts of money is put into proper independent anti doping we are being laughed at from a height.

JV, i dare say gets his kicks pulling 12 posters legs in an echo chamber. Whatever turns him on is fine, but he talks the talk as is the business minded thing to, but remember the sport does not walk the walk when it comes to anti doping.

JV may be a nice guy, great, but so is Indurain and loads of other unrepentant dopers. This does not mean they cannot be called out on their cheating!

Also for those crying about so called abuse JV is getting, grow up, he is a business man and what he gets in here is kindergarden school stuff compared to what real world throws!

I have not seen too much inside info coming from JV for all the time he spends in here. Lots of obfuscation, abuse and name calling from JV, but not many nuggets nor would i expect any, as his competitors no doubt read his posts. It then begs the question why does JV post? becuase as i said it appears to be an itch he likes to scratch and play with the clinic 12. Take it with a pinch of salt or maybe a glass of your favourite dram, say Bruichladdich

Wow! Can't wait to read your treatise about how JV faked the moon landing.

 

[Gavandope]

I wouldn't be surprised either - when he got prosecuted for fraud a couple of years back, didn't he avoid prison on the basis that he would pay back the monies when he could?

I vaguely recall but can't be 100% sure I am no way an oracle like most of you here. Though I have read a lot about all this he strikes me as the type who would rather be broke and happy than rich and not. After all this I hope he comes back to the sport in some way. He deserves to be just like I was chuffed to pleased to see LeMond on Eurosport and advertising Oakley. Poetic justice!

 

[Granville57]

if he gets paid out by the whistleblower suit I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he refunds the sheep who fell for the load of rubbish he wrote that they bought in droves.

I wouldn't be surprised either - when he got prosecuted for fraud a couple of years back, didn't he avoid prison on the basis that he would pay back the monies when he could?

Floyd is legally bound to pay back those who want a refund.

Funny enough, the biggest contributors (that very small handful that donated most of the money) will likely never come-a-knockin'. They probably want to keep this whole affair at arms length. And they likely won't miss the money either.

But those other peeps who DEMAND THEIR REFUND!?

Yeah, they'll be able to get back their $25.00.


Floyd Landis must reimburse donors
http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling/story/_/id/8297769/floyd-landis-avoid-jail-donors-get-reimbursed

The deferred prosecution agreement sets out conditions under which Landis could make restitution of nearly a half-million dollars to those who contributed to the long-defunct Floyd Fairness Fund -- provided that he is able to earn income himself. It also enables him to lower that liability by seeking waivers from donors who don't want their money back.

Some 1,500 donors whose contributions totaled $478,354 were identified through financial records detailing payments by check and PayPal accounts to the FFF, which was closed in late 2007.

Some 1,500 donors whose contributions totaled $478,354 were identified through financial records detailing payments by check and PayPal accounts to the FFF, which was closed in late 2007.

Landis said he knows of several large donors who do not want to be repaid. Those who do will be reimbursed through the court, which in turn will collect a portion of Landis' earnings depending on how much he makes. He will be obligated to fully disclose his financial assets to the court.

If Landis and his lawyer, Leo Cunningham, had not reached the agreement with federal prosecutors, Landis could have faced up to 20 years in prison, a $250,000 fine, and mandatory restitution to all victims.