JV and Garmin - paragons of cleanER?

[Benotti69]

BS. The main reason GL is held up as the clean hero in the clinic is because he is the enemy of LA. That's the source of all the contradictions pmc alludes to...pretzel logic to maintain the tribalism.

Last time i looked Sassi never posted in the clinic, but no doubt you will prove me wrong......

 

[ChrisE]

Last time i looked Sassi never posted in the clinic, but no doubt you will prove me wrong......

Sassi is a diversion you conveniently use for cover. I don't have to prove you wrong because what Sassi says has no bearing on my opinion.

Yeah, everybody jammed Sassi down everybody's throat that ever questioned GL lol.

 

[sniper]

Shame JV isnt tweeting about such things....but that would upset the apple cart and be bad for business.

this.
if jv dedicated his life to antidoping, why is he not concerned about other teams doping and stealing victories from his clean riders.
why, instead, the strong focus on how clean sky and the whole bunch are?
doesn't make sense, at least it doesn't if garmin are clean.

he likes contador, which is fair enough.
but why wasn't he ****ed off at contador for stealing 2009 wiggins' podium spot at the tour?
what about VDV's 4th place in the tdf 2008.
c/w/should've been a podium spot if it wasn't for menchov.
but no outrage either from JV or VDV.

hell, he's even spoken of some pact within the peloton to stop doping in 2007. shame i can't find that post. it's hilarious.

then his whole attitude wrt sky and cookson.
not asking any questions, not expressing any concerns, although there'd be tons of reasons to, at least if garmin are clean.

and again, if he wasn't putting himself on that high horse, we wouldnt be criticizing him so much for his attitude, which otherwise is perfectly understandable.
i mean, i don't think anybody seriously expects him to out his riders or start spitting in the soup in the mainstream media.
the least we can ask of him is to not insult our intelligence.
and remove that sentence from his twitter account.

 

[sniper]

@pmcg76
i can't find your post now, but you legitimately asked whether i think he's running a program.

depends on the definition of 'program'.
i agree with redflanders to the extent that i don't think JV (actively) encourages doping, let alone provides doping to his riders.
none of the sort.

but then there's the internal testing. i think the main purpose of that 'program' is to have his riders fly below the radar should they be doping, and not to keep his riders from doping per se.
you could call that a program, but certainly not in the usps sense.

bottomline: i don't think jv is an evil doping conspirator.
i do think he has a good sense of who's doping and who's not, and that he is hiding that for the sake of his job. (understandably so).
i.e. i don't buy his vouching for the likes of wiggins and hesjedal.

edit: generally, i think his strong focus in here and in the mainstream media on how clean(er) it is, is damaging anti-doping efforts.
if honestly dedicated to antidoping, he should either not comment, or put a stronger focus on the problems, such as the lack of an independent antidoping body, the presence of zorzoli, the continued presence of a whole series of doping facilitators, etc.
stating time and again how clean(er) it is, is an incentive for fans and administrators to leave things as they are.
considering so many doping facilitators are still in the sport, that stance makes no sense.
recall for instance that walsh's 180 degrees turnaround (i.e. from bashing lance to loving sky) was based largely on vaughters giving sky the 'clean' label.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

recall for instance that walsh's 180 degrees turnaround (i.e. from bashing lance to loving sky) was based largely on vaughters giving sky the 'clean' label.

LeMond on Landis
Kimmage on Kohl

I.e.: anyone can make mistakes. Can you blame Vaughters for what/how Walsh interprets? Guess Vaughters said the same to Kimmage about Sky, yet he looks to have interpret that somewhat different...

Vaughters isnt the 'clean cycling guru' ''WE'' want him to be, that doesnt mean he isnt for the rest of the cycling world. He is a pragmatic, perhaps even a master at bending.

Him getting a lot of stick here - within the boundaries of normal human behaviour - keeps him Sharp.

 

[Netserk]

Well believing Martin winning a one day classic clean is no more ridiculous than believing LeMond was winning 3 week Tours against riders jacked up to the gills on cortisone, testosterone etc. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

Because riders get the same benefit from T and cortisone in a three week event, as riders do from epo, BB, T and cortisone in a one day event?

Are you for real?

 

[sniper]

LeMond on Landis
Kimmage on Kohl

I.e.: anyone can make mistakes. Can you blame Vaughters for what/how Walsh interprets? Guess Vaughters said the same to Kimmage about Sky, yet he looks to have interpret that somewhat different...

yes, agree of course.
but it's a nice example to illustrate the consequenes vaughters' preaching might have at large. he seems on a crusade to convert the nonbelievers.
if nonconvertible (e.g. Digger), he'll start to discredit.
recall also JV stating we shouldn't believe everything Ashenden says, rather than showing concern that Ashenden might be right.

 

[Gavandope]

JV - if you lurk could you possibly send me a PM about my thoughts on this topic. I have tried sending you a PM but your box is predictably spammed to the max and I don't think a public reply would be conducive either.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=22799

 

[DirtyWorks]

this.
if jv dedicated his life to antidoping, why is he not concerned about other teams doping and stealing victories from his clean riders.
why, instead, the strong focus on how clean sky and the whole bunch are?
doesn't make sense, at least it doesn't if garmin are clean.

Why would he want to raise the ire of ASO and the UCI? JV1973 was nice enough to tell us both ASO and UCI are discreetly involved in managing his team.

Remember what happened to the DS that a long while ago plainly stated a TdF podium was doped? I have to dig up the link later, but the UCI gave him grief to the point of threatening to pull his license.

Let's be fair to JV. I don't trust him, but I think he makes a decent effort at operating a cleanish team. He's a PR genius relative to all of the actors in elite cycling. This against the backdrop of a completely compromised sports federation means little though.

 

[proffate]

Because riders get the same benefit from T and cortisone in a three week event, as riders do from epo, BB, T and cortisone in a one day event?

Are you for real?

that doesn't seem that implausible to me. T would have a huge benefit for riders over a 3 week race, preventing their blood levels from dropping off among other things. I believe it was Boardman who came out and said he could never compete in stage races because he didn't have enough natural T. EPO supposedly gives you about a 10% boost. I can see a heavy course of T giving you more than a 10% boost by week 3 (just by preventing the natural drop off).

 

[DirtyWorks]

that doesn't seem that implausible to me. T would have a huge benefit for riders over a 3 week race, preventing their blood levels from dropping off among other things. I believe it was Boardman who came out and said he could never compete in stage races because he didn't have enough natural T. EPO supposedly gives you about a 10% boost. I can see a heavy course of T giving you more than a 10% boost by week 3 (just by preventing the natural drop off).

And the only thing the rider has to worry about is crossing the 4/1 threshold. Assuming a Test analysis is done, they don't run the CIR(??) test that checks for artificial Test until you fail the easy to defeat ratio test.

 

[sniper]

Let's be fair to JV. I don't trust him, but I think he makes a decent effort at operating a cleanish team.

what effort is that? as far as i've understood he doesn't spend that much time with the team.

what we do know is that he's given a lot of ex-USPS-ers a job in cycling and that by now the whole peloton is talking the vaughters talk.
i don't know, but i'll give it a rest

 

[DirtyWorks]

what effort is that? as far as i've understood he doesn't spend that much time with the team.

what we do know is that he's given a lot of ex-USPS-ers a job in cycling and that by now the whole peloton is talking the vaughters talk.
i don't know, but i'll give it a rest

I don't see any miracle transformations. JV's medical lead is much more public in a good way on the topic of doping. Are there other doubts? For sure.

I do not see other teams doing the same messaging at all. Not in practice, nothing. There is one big-talker that is a joke and very well covered. (please take your moral outrage to the Sky thread.) The rest are still using 'cleanest peloton ever' message and 'moving forward' as if it is 2001.

JV chose a harder way to run a team. He didn't have to. The UCI certainly would not care. I give him some credit for this.

 

[sniper]

I don't see any miracle transformations. JV's medical lead is much more public in a good way on the topic of doping. Are there other doubts? For sure.

I do not see other teams doing the same messaging at all. Not in practice, nothing. There is one big-talker that is a joke and very well covered. (please take your moral outrage to the Sky thread.) The rest are still using 'cleanest peloton ever' message and 'moving forward' as if it is 2001.

JV chose a harder way to run a team. He didn't have to. The UCI certainly would not care. I give him some credit for this.

i need some time to think it over, but for the time being this sounds like fair points

 

[Benotti69]

I don't see any miracle transformations. JV's medical lead is much more public in a good way on the topic of doping. Are there other doubts? For sure.

why would you expect to see miracle transformations? They are all (ex) dopers who have already performed above their natural levels.

Anyone predict Hesjedel was GT winning quality?

I do not see other teams doing the same messaging at all. Not in practice, nothing. There is one big-talker that is a joke and very well covered. (please take your moral outrage to the Sky thread.) The rest are still using 'cleanest peloton ever' message and 'moving forward' as if it is 2001.

JV chose a harder way to run a team. He didn't have to. The UCI certainly would not care. I give him some credit for this.

JV chose a line and method to run a team that meant guaranteed publicity. It also kept the UCI of his back as they no doubt would be upset with his talking to USADA, but hardly going to kick out the 'clean' team and face the backlash.

JV has thought long and hard about how to approach the WT pro team business and with only one known blip, White/Lowe/Del Moral, he has skated through.........

 

[sniper]

why would you expect to see miracle transformations? They are all (ex) dopers who have already performed above their natural levels.
...
JV chose a line and method to run a team that meant guaranteed publicity. It also kept the UCI of his back as they no doubt would be upset with his talking to USADA, but hardly going to kick out the 'clean' team and face the backlash.

have to agree with both points

Anyone predict Hesjedel was GT winning quality?

well, JV did.

Last year Hesjedal wasn't even ranked as a top ten contender by many in the media. His team knew he had the potential following a strong ride in the 2010 Tour de France. "If he gets through the first week, watch Ryder," his team boss Jonathan Vaughters had told Cyclingnews on the eve of the Giro.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/giro-ditalia-2013-ryder-hesjedal-exclusive-interview

 

[sniper]

clean(er) cycling in 2010:

DSQ Alberto Contador (ESP) Team Astana 91h 58' 48"
1 Andy Schleck (LUX) Yellow jerseyWhite jersey Team Saxo Bank 91h 59' 27"
DSQ Denis Menchov (RUS) Rabobank +1' 22"
3 Samuel Sánchez (ESP) Euskaltel +3' 01"
4 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (BEL) Omega Pharma – Lotto +6' 15"
5 Robert Gesink (NED) Rabobank +8' 52"
6 Ryder Hesjedal (CAN) Garmin +9' 36"
7 Joaquim Rodríguez (ESP) Katusha +10' 58"
8 Roman Kreuziger (CZE) Liquigas +11' 15"
9 Chris Horner (USA)

 

[DirtyWorks]

clean(er) cycling in 2010:

All true. Every bit of it. And I realize it's inconsistent and lots of other things.

You guys won't even acknowledge the additional effort to kind of appear sort of clean? It's not a practical thing to do in the elite level of sport.

 

[Benotti69]

All true. Every bit of it. And I realize it's inconsistent and lots of other things.

You guys won't even acknowledge the additional effort to kind of appear sort of clean? It's not a practical thing to do in the elite level of sport.

To appear clean does take effort but done right the payback is huge. JV has laid the foundations that now most take for granted Garmin are clean and passover them, but scratch the surface and it aint so.......JV has not done too much talk on clean garmin this year as it has been taken for granted by lots that they are the real deal. But they aint.

 

[Benotti69]

have to agree with both points
well, JV did.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/giro-ditalia-2013-ryder-hesjedal-exclusive-interview

Well when you run a big internal 'program' testing riders, i would expect a DS to know what was capable....and JV called it....but not too many others saw it coming.

 

[DirtyWorks]

To appear clean does take effort but done right the payback is huge. JV has laid the foundations that now most take for granted Garmin are clean and passover them,

What I thought was lost in the discussion was the amount of extra work it took to get that far.

but scratch the surface and it aint so.......JV has not done too much talk on clean garmin this year as it has been taken for granted by lots that they are the real deal. But they aint.

For me, this is a matter of degrees. At the same time, it's not Astana either.

Do I personally believe the PR? No. There is no reason in the world for the team execs to bother to the extent that JV's team appears to be clean other than to satisfy their own preferences. That's an improvement. I would like to think a few toxic riders would be out of the sport if more teams behaved like JV's. But, this is cycling..

 

[simo1733]

For the tag team Paddies who still want to believe that Irish rider Dan Martin doesn't dope yet beat big time juicers to win a momument.

I would be very surprised if Mark Scanlon did not dope. He beat Pozzato in 1998 Junior World Champs. Pozzato rode that clean? I doubt Pozzato ever rode clean in his life so Scanlon was that good? or he did what everyone else did?


Amazing to you guys who constantly follows me trying to dismiss my posts as black and white and repeated ad nauseum, yet cannot point to where the sport cleanED up and who cleanED it up.

I would have thought that world class juniors/espoirs who fail at pro tour level are the most likely to be clean ,or is it completely the opposite?

 

[sniper]

What I thought was lost in the discussion was the amount of extra work it took to get that far.




For me, this is a matter of degrees. At the same time, it's not Astana either.

Do I personally believe the PR? No. There is no reason in the world for the team execs to bother to the extent that JV's team appears to be clean other than to satisfy their own preferences. That's an improvement. I would like to think a few toxic riders would be out of the sport if more teams behaved like JV's. But, this is cycling..

as you may have noticed, JV/Garmin have me in doubt (unlike e.g. Sky, which is a nobrainer).
At times I think JV's basic intentions are genuine. But most of the time I think they aren't.
For instance, I can't get my head around JV's hiring policy.
He sticks with Weltz. Can't he find another guy?
Same for Lim, or that ex-Real Madrid phlebotomist, Gonzalez something. You wonder what he needs them for.
I'm not convinced by Girona either. Makes you wonder.
Not to mention JV's selection of riders. We've gone there.
A man of JV's experience, was he really believing that guys like Talansky, Danielson, Hesjedal, VDV were going to stop doping because, ehm, JV tells them to? Or was he looking for something else?



On a different note.
JV apparently reprimanded Talansky for his public Floyd bashing and Lance love still in 2012 (when everybody except a handfull of omerta upholders knew what time it was).
Here's Talansky in 2014 on twitter having a go at Diluca for claiming 90% of the Giro was doped.

I feel genuine hatred towards Di Luca. He's a worthless lying scumbag making false statements that hurt the sport I love.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...-that-90-percent-of-giro-peloton-dopes_314313
Some guys aren't learning. Or are they?

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

I'm amazed that apparently no rider felt genuine hatred for Di Luca earlier
Escapes a doping investigation, wins a Giro, gets dropped from his team because of doping investigations, has an obvious drop in performance, gets suspended for contact with a dodgy doctor, comes back and nearly wins another Giro with a performance that just screams doping, gets popped for CERA and makes another return without even having served a full 2 year ban ...

 

[del1962]

I'm amazed that apparently no rider felt genuine hatred for Di Luca earlier
Escapes a doping investigation, wins a Giro, gets dropped from his team because of doping investigations, has an obvious drop in performance, gets suspended for contact with a dodgy doctor, comes back and nearly wins another Giro with a performance that just screams doping, gets popped for CERA and makes another return without even having served a full 2 year ban ...

Didn't Pinotti get mad with him

Don’t get me started on Di Luca because if you do we’ll still be here tomorrow morning. I don’t want to talk about him.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/marco-pinotti-exclusive-interview-with-italian-cyclings-voice-of-reason