JV ......Is "yes" so hard to say?

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Jun 18, 2009
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Since everyone thinks from a various perspective, I'll make mine clear: I don't ride for Garmin, nor have I in the past. I've spoken with JV maybe 5 times, briefly. I do know several guys who've ridden with or currently ride for him, to varying degrees, from casual acquaintances to very close friends. So much of my opinion of him is formed from those guys. Honestly, most of those guys have varying opinions of him, from "he's alright" to feeling like they got shafted a little or aren't given the opportunities they think they deserve. And that's pretty typical of any DS. The only guys who really inspire great passion among their riders are the guys who typically can't keep their teams together (sorry, no offense to whom this is intended), since in the end you have to be a bit of an a-hole to run a really successful team, or business in general. So to be clear, I'm not a raving JV fanboy, employee or sycophant.

With that out of the way, in reading these posts the real issue has become clear. It's not that JV hasn't admitted doping (since he basically has done so), it's that he hasn't publicly pointed the finger at Big Tex. So let's talk about that.

First off, I share the few that Big Tex going down is ultimately good for the sport. Is a public "JV vs Big Tex" war really the best way to do this, though? I don't think so, and here's why:

For starters, people are really overestimating Vaughter's importance. Sure, he's big now in the cycling world, but the average ESPN watcher wouldn't recognize the name if he tripped over him. Sure, he doesn't have the credibility issues of Landis, but here's how the public war of words would be spun "Lance domestic Vaughters", "guy who never even finished the tour accuses Lance', "DS of team with big budget but few wins", "never able to achieve his true potential", "bitter", etc. In the court of public opinion, I still see Lance winning this one, though it will certainly hurt.

Secondly, and more importantly, so what? Killing Big Tex in the court of public opinion matters, as far as I'm concerned, but that's going going to get him suspended, sanctioned or penalized in any way. He'll still be made as (even more of) a martyr to many. If Vaughters has any dirt on BT, he should be telling it to the organizations which can do something about it, including the Feds. If they fail to act, then sure, take it to the press. It's not just the UCI investigating this (since they aren't), WADA, USADA and the federal government all have their hand in it. Those are the people to whom he needs to be talking.

To the point above, I have to question how much Vaughters even knows with respect to Texas. I don't see the schoolyard bully really trusting the nerdy, bespectacled geeky guy with the giant lungs. Sure he can talk about the culture within the team and he may have some direct knowledge....but maybe his actual knowledge is pretty limited. I don't know. But I doubt anyone here knows anyway.

Lastly, from a practical standpoint, a media war of words becomes a distraction for all of the guys on the team, many of whom really don't deserve it.

I guess in the end I'm hopeful that the information he and some of the other former Posties have given to the Feds will ultimately lead to deserved sanctions for those in the cross hairs. I don't think that arguing it in the press is the way to go about affecting positive change, at least given where JV sits in the whole thing. Time will tell.
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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BroDeal said:
I can always bring it. I became so tired of the endless trolling of BPC, flicker, Polish, etc. that I stopped putting any effort into my posts. Short and sarcastic comments are cheap and easy.
When I am tired of being tired I drink FRS. Just a tip from the fat and sassy Lord Armstrong.
 
BotanyBay said:
This is the post I wish I had written myself. BroDeal, you are most definitely a "Bro".
Absolutely.

BroDeal, that was an awesome post. Usually I get so angry at the lengths these guys go to in order to protect Armstrong by tacitly sweeping anything they know under the rug I just wind up cursing.

But you my good man, have expressed yourself with eloquent rage.

Bravissimo!!!
 
Jul 23, 2009
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hrotha said:
Unfortunately I tend to agree with BroDeal. I like JV, but I feel like Mulder with my "I want to believe". JV gives me hope and it's hard to give up on hope altogether, but there might not be much backing said hope. I'm afraid much of the support JV gets is similarly emotional.
I haven't offered any critique of JV because I suspect he is withholding comment to protect the interests of his team. But Bro's post gave me reason to reconsider. If something is worth pursuing, perhaps it is worth paying the price. I would hope that sponsors would not leave simply because JV spoke honestly about events of a decade ago.

BotanyBay said:
JV's the guy who could drop a bombshell today and come in with enough credibility and respect that McQuaid, Lance and pretty much everyone else would need to sit in a room with their PR firms for a full week before they could even dare to issue a reactionary statement. JV is the great white hope.
I agree that JV offers the perfect recipe: knowledge, credibility, and having something to lose. No disrespect to FL, but he lacked the latter two criteria.

131313 said:
In the court of public opinion, I still see Lance winning this one, though it will certainly hurt.
Seven months ago I would have agreed with this point. LA would have steamrolled JV and would likely have used his influence to the detriment of team Garmin. LA's supporters in the sport and in the media would have made JV's life hell. But the LA of December is not the LA of April. He is already fighting a war on at least one front and I suspect many of his former allies are scuttling off what they see as a sinking ship.

I appreciate why JV has not come forward with a tell-all tale like FL, but if he's going to be held up as a beacon of hope for clean cycling he really has to get off the fence and take a step forward. Maybe the ongoing investigation provides him with a chance to do so.
 
May 26, 2010
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Garmin are using SRAM this season, what's LA stake in them 15%???

he could have used campag or shimano (like this year) and not given a penny or exposure to LA but no SRAM it is? does that not tell you what JV is about?

doesn't say much for cervelo either :rolleyes:
 
JV doesn't say "Yes, I was doped", because that would undoubtedly lead to negative media coverage from the typical "cycling is the only sport where people dope"- journalists. Instead, what JV does here, is that he says a clear "yes" to the cycling supporters and fans (you don't have to be very smart to realise what he implies), while at the same time, he is stopping the media from making any interesting headlines about it by not admitting it openly.
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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Lance has AT LEAST as much dirt on JV as JV has on Lance - probably more.
There is a "nuclear deterrence" that is beneficial to both.

JV dropping the Big One on Lance would be like Pak.istan dropping the Big One on the USA.
Both would suffer ouch.

And the people who would enjoy that the most?
That would be the hater extremists hiding out in the caves of the clinic.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Polish said:
Lance has AT LEAST as much dirt on JV as JV has on Lance - probably more.
There is a "nuclear deterrence" that is beneficial to both.

JV dropping the Big One on Lance would be like Pak.istan dropping the Big One on the USA.
Both would suffer ouch.

And the people who would enjoy that the most?
That would be the hater extremists hiding out in the caves of the clinic.
Pay no attention to him:

 
Jul 6, 2010
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BroDeal said:
I can always bring it. I became so tired of the endless trolling of BPC, flicker, Polish, etc. that I stopped putting any effort into my posts. Short and sarcastic comments are cheap and easy.
Hey, I resemble that comment...

Like I've said before, if you can't say something intelligent or interesting you better make it funny. Fortunately, for me, I laugh at my own inside jokes.

Nicely done, Brodeal.

The only reason I stick around this forum is that every now and then someone succinctly nails a point that many have stumbled over. Spread the knowledge! Good on ya....
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
Pay no attention to him:
Yo Glinda -when you Quote me, forumites are forced to re-read my posts.
Even the ones that have me on "ignore":(


"Pay no attention to him".....thanks for the tip Moran.
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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Polish said:
Yo Glinda -when you Quote me, forumites are forced to re-read my posts.
Even the ones that have me on "ignore":(


"Pay no attention to him".....thanks for the tip Moran.
I t must be like Malcom McDowell being drugged with industrial grade halucigens strapped to a theatre seat and listening to Ludwig Von at volume 10, while being forced to watch WWll atrocities for the forum posters (haters) who are forced to read my quoted posts. Clockwork Orange.

Almost like Joe P. seeing guys flying uphill at 30k.
 
Aug 8, 2009
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BroDeal said:
...If the sport really has changed then JV would not be tiptoeing around, afraid of his own shadow ,like Einstein during a zombie outbreak...
If its Einstein vs. Zombies, I'd take Einstein. He was good with a pencil.
 
131313 said:
...

I guess in the end I'm hopeful that the information he and some of the other former Posties have given to the Feds will ultimately lead to deserved sanctions for those in the cross hairs. I don't think that arguing it in the press is the way to go about affecting positive change, at least given where JV sits in the whole thing. Time will tell.
I apreciate your comments.

I am not sure if any of the former posties have confessed to anything. That's why I am starting to worry about the BT getting away with his image still being intact.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
I apreciate your comments.

I am not sure if any of the former posties have confessed to anything. That's why I am starting to worry about the BT getting away with his image still being intact.
Actually, at this point I'm done defending JV. The sideburns are one thing, but the Central American dictator costume is just over the line. Seriously??

But anyways, if people are pinning their hopes on JV's direct knowledge I think it's misguided. Tex was never close to Vaughters, he thought JV was a know-it-all weirdo, um, errr....so...I really question what he'd DIRECTLY know anyway? Remember even Frankie claimed to not have any DIRECT knowledge.

Guys like Flandis who marched in and said "I'll do what it takes, just let me know"...those were the guys on the inner circle. Most guys fit somewhere on the continuum of reluctant dopers like JV to "gimmie the good stuff!" guys like Flandis. Regardless of where they fit on that continuum I see guys like Hincapie, Livingston, Tyler, Bottle, Jemison, and even Frankie as having more relevant info than JV.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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131313 said:
Actually, at this point I'm done defending JV. The sideburns are one thing, but the Central American dictator costume is just over the line. Seriously??
Agreed, JV's sartorial choices are getting increasingly hard to defend



 

Barrus

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Apr 28, 2010
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I really sometimes think JV shoudl get someone else to pick his wardrobe, some of his choices really are very suspect
 
Jul 6, 2010
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If you've got to work so hard to create a 'unique image', it probably means that you're either making up for something or distracting from something.

Doofus...
 

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