JV reaches out to anonymous critic.

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Oct 25, 2010
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JMBeaushrimp said:
I'm just trying to pull this thread back to its original point. I guess not THIS thread, but the original one that spawned this one. That being that JV is purporting himself to be a clean DS running a manifestly clean team.

As to the US fed issues... All of that sort of makes these threads moot since we don't know what JV's going to be asked to verify under oath.

I just like keeping it fresh in everyones' minds that he professes the Clean Team angle, and may have a few skeletons in his closet that need airing.

As I said, his disclosure may be limited to what his involvement in the US investigation is. I keep hoping that that's what it is.

As to 'Mr Clean', well... I just thought that was sort of catchy, and the fact that I could use some sleep might absolve me of my misdeeds.
If I knew how to create a poll here, I'd do two questions right off the bat:

1) Does JV have "clout"?

2) Do JV's skeletons require any public airing?
 

Dr. Maserati

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JMBeaushrimp said:
I'm just trying to pull this thread back to its original point. I guess not THIS thread, but the original one that spawned this one. That being that JV is purporting himself to be a clean DS running a manifestly clean team.

As to the US fed issues... All of that sort of makes these threads moot since we don't know what JV's going to be asked to verify under oath.

I just like keeping it fresh in everyones' minds that he professes the Clean Team angle, and may have a few skeletons in his closet that need airing.

As I said, his disclosure may be limited to what his involvement in the US investigation is. I keep hoping that that's what it is.

As to 'Mr Clean', well... I just thought that was sort of catchy, and the fact that I could use some sleep might absolve me of my misdeeds.
To the highlighted sure, he has said (in effect) that he is trying to run a clean team. But that is all.

So that is all that he can be judged on - and from everything I see about that team and setup he has done that.

In the Kimmage interview from 2008 it is clear that he has doped - he never denied it.

Again - I can understand some transperency about his own doping but I do not see what outing LA (before the Feds got involved) has to do with running a clean team.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
If I knew how to create a poll here, I'd do two questions right off the bat:

1) Does JV have "clout"?

2) Do JV's skeletons require any public airing?
Why - even I would answer yes to both of those. What would that prove?

Well I asked you what "clout" he has - and your only offer was that he is a GM of a team that is part of a system of which they have no say - run by the UCI.

If JV has so much "clout" why was he recently complaining about the UCI - "Vaughters critical of UCI ProTeams rankings"?
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
To the highlighted sure, he has said (in effect) that he is trying to run a clean team. But that is all.

So that is all that he can be judged on - and from everything I see about that team and setup he has done that.

In the Kimmage interview from 2008 it is clear that he has doped - he never denied it.

Again - I can understand some transperency about his own doping but I do not see what outing LA (before the Feds got involved) has to do with running a clean team.
Sorry, but I thought you in on these conversations.

Mind you, Buckwheats heated monologues may have distracted all of us from the points he was trying to make re JV.

"No comment" isn't clear from him that he doped. It's clear that he's obfuscating, or not willing to take the PR hit objectively.

That was the earlier point many posters brought up. If he can't openly come clean, many people can't take his claim of the Clean Team seriously.

It's pretty simple, and I really don't think it's a case of crazy posters talking sh*t. It's just sort of an example of basic logic. If A then B, if not A then C, etc etc.

His honesty is creating a credibility gap for fans that want to believe in what he's doing (even me - I'd love institutional cleanliness more than anyone).

Hopefully I'm making sense, Mas.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Why - even I would answer yes to both of those. What would that prove?

Well I asked you what "clout" he has - and your only offer was that he is a GM of a team that is part of a system of which they have no say - run by the UCI.

If JV has so much "clout" why was he recently complaining about the UCI - "Vaughters critical of UCI ProTeams rankings"?
Having clout is one thing. Defining it is another.

I have clout at my University, but I am often critical of it. I wish "they'd" change things. I don't have the power to change anything on my own, but I have far more clout than you do.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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JMBeaushrimp said:
"No comment" isn't clear from him that he doped. It's clear that he's obfuscating, or not willing to take the PR hit objectively.
Bingo. But most people here can feed a family of 10 on a wink and a nod. I can't. I require disclosure.

JMBeaushrimp said:
That was the earlier point many posters brought up. If he can't openly come clean, many people can't take his claim of the Clean Team seriously.
This is where Maserati will say that he never claimed to be clean, and he'll ask you for quotes/articles of reference.

My point has been that I think JV has ridden those winks and nods into a defacto "clean racing" position of stature in front of the fans. And he either needs to say "whoa everyone, I'm not who you think I am", or he needs to explain to them WHY they have interpreted his winks and nods as they have. (and this is where Maserati will say "Why do you think he owes you... or anyone else... anything?") and around we go!
 
Jul 6, 2010
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BotanyBay said:
Bingo. But most people here can feed a family of 10 on a wink and a nod. I can't. I require disclosure.



This is where Maserati will say that he never claimed to be clean, and he'll ask you for quotes/articles of reference.

My point has been that I think JV has ridden those winks and nods into a defacto "clean racing" position of stature in front of the fans. And he either needs to say "whoa everyone, I'm not who you think I am", or he needs to explain to us WHY tey have interpreted his winks and nods as they have.
As many would say, "we're playing the same game with different hands".

Is Dr Mas really that obtuse? I've given him more credit than that, although this has truly been beaten to a slow, bloody, and painful death.

I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that "a lie of omission is even worse than a lie of comission". It might be from a crusty ethicist but it rings true for all people in all places.

Wink and a nod leads to a handbasket to h*ll.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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JMBeaushrimp said:
As many would say, "we're playing the same game with different hands".

Is Dr Mas really that obtuse? I've given him more credit than that, although this has truly been beaten to a slow, bloody, and painful death.

I'm pretty sure I've read somewhere that "a lie of omission is even worse than a lie of comission". It might be from a crusty ethicist but it rings true for all people in all places.

Wink and a nod leads to a handbasket to h*ll.
JV has some distinct complicity in his public perception through his omissions. If he did not want this perception, a "no comment" on everything would have been more appropriate.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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JMBeaushrimp said:
Sorry, but I thought you in on these conversations.

Mind you, Buckwheats heated monologues may have distracted all of us from the points he was trying to make re JV.

"No comment" isn't clear from him that he doped. It's clear that he's obfuscating, or not willing to take the PR hit objectively.

That was the earlier point many posters brought up. If he can't openly come clean, many people can't take his claim of the Clean Team seriously.

It's pretty simple, and I really don't think it's a case of crazy posters talking sh*t. It's just sort of an example of basic logic. If A then B, if not A then C, etc etc.

His honesty is creating a credibility gap for fans that want to believe in what he's doing (even me - I'd love institutional cleanliness more than anyone).

Hopefully I'm making sense, Mas.
Appreciate your point.

But when JV said "no comment" that was in relation to PKs question on doping within the USPS team, not on his private doping.

On his private doping he says:
PK mentions Ventoux TT - “That was a massive performance,” I suggest.

“Yes,” he replies. “Did it feel massive? Did you feel happy?”

“I felt okay. I wasn’t ecstatic.” “That doesn’t make sense?” “Well, for sure, it was the best form of my life as a bike rider, but I wasn’t . . . I was just sort of . . . I will leave it at this; I wasn’t overly pleased with that victory. It was interesting to me. It answered a lot of questions. But it wasn’t the most ecstatic moment of my life by any means.”
Vaughters interview with Kimmage 2008.

I have said on both threads I would prefer if JV made an admission of his own doping - which is what you said in the other thread.
However - Buckwheat & BotanyBay are saying that he should admit everything, or more precisely drive the dagger in to LA publically.
When asked why we get every other point except that.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
Having clout is one thing. Defining it is another.

I have clout at my University, but I am often critical of it. I wish "they'd" change things. I don't have the power to change anything on my own, but I have far more clout than you do.
You have "clout" in a University - well, if I was to do to you as you have done to JV, I would suggest that all education mistakes (funding, teaching, cirriculum, etc) is entirely your fault as you have not used your "clout" to effect the change that I want.

Education - it's all your fault - wait until Buckwheat comes back.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Appreciate your point.

But when JV said "no comment" that was in relation to PKs question on doping within the USPS team, not on his private doping.

On his private doping he says:

Vaughters interview with Kimmage 2008.

I have said on both threads I would prefer if JV made an admission of his own doping - which is what you said in the other thread.
However - Buckwheat & BotanyBay are saying that he should admit everything, or more precisely drive the dagger in to LA publically.
When asked why we get every other point except that.
Sorry I misunderstood what interview you were referencing.

JV's admission of his own history is enough for me, as long as it's explicit. That's proof of b*lls enogh for me. I don't expect him to pull a kamikaze to implicate others. There's a Grand Jury in the States for that.

As to what the other would like/expect, well that's their fight to fight. Good luck proding him to that end.

I'm thinking that there's going to be a lot of interesting disclosure coming around the bend. Should be an interesting off-season. Not only some great 'cross to watch (Nys is stomping!), but maybe even some interesting roadie updates...
 
Jul 29, 2010
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BotanyBay said:
("What clout does JV have?")

The clout to work together with other GM/CEOs of ProTour teams and break away from the UCI and deal directly (and exclusively) with ASO (which almost happened just a few years ago)..
I think you're a bit off-track on that one. My recollection is that the ASO at that point in time (spring 2008) drew a line in the sand and decided it wanted a clean Tour -- and that the UCI was corrupt and could not be trusted to run clean controls. The UCI in return threatened it would not sanction any race it did not have 'jurisdiction' over. The ASO responded by saying it would run its races to be governed by the French cycling federation.

Again, this saga was 100% driven by the ASO, particularly the managing director at that time, Patrice Clerc. Clerc only had the "clout" to do so b/c the TdF was/is the 400lb. gorilla in pro cycling... Unfortunately, after the back-to-back debacles of 2006 (Landis) and 2007 (Rasmussen) and the ensuing negative light it cast on the TdF, the Amaury family which controls the ASO totally reversed course. They fired ("retired") Clerc after the '08 season and quickly took the " hear no evil, see no evil" approach to doping. (And the Tour has been remarkably "clean" ever since, big surprise).

As such, your assertion that the ASO-UCI showdown of 2008 was driven by team managers (such as JV) is waaaay off, I believe. The UCI threatened suspensions against any team riders who showed up at the TdF that year. It'd be nice to think that one (or several) strong-willed team managers could hold the UCI hostage, but the reality is much different. No clout.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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NashbarShorts said:
I think you're a bit off-track on that one. My recollection is that the ASO at that point in time (spring 2008) drew a line in the sand and decided it wanted a clean Tour -- and that the UCI was corrupt and could not be trusted to run clean controls. The UCI in return threatened it would not sanction any race it did not have 'jurisdiction' over. The ASO responded by saying it would run its races to be governed by the French cycling federation.

Again, this saga was 100% driven by the ASO, particularly the managing director at that time, Patrice Clerc. Clerc only had the "clout" to do so b/c the TdF was/is the 400lb. gorilla in pro cycling... Unfortunately, after the back-to-back debacles of 2006 (Landis) and 2007 (Rasmussen) and the ensuing negative light it cast on the TdF, the Amaury family which controls the ASO totally reversed course. They fired ("retired") Clerc after the '08 season and quickly took the " hear no evil, see no evil" approach to doping. (And the Tour has been remarkably "clean" ever since, big surprise).

As such, your assertion that the ASO-UCI showdown of 2008 was driven by team managers (such as JV) is waaaay off, I believe. The UCI threatened suspensions against any team riders who showed up at the TdF that year. It'd be nice to think that one (or several) strong-willed team managers could hold the UCI hostage, but the reality is much different. No clout.
No, there was another situation where the organizers of the three grand tours was protesting the fact that ProTour team inclusion was being forced upon them by the UCI. These organizers wanted to invite whatever teams they wanted. The ProTour teams were also not happy about being "required" to ride a grand tour if they did not want to.
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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JMBeaushrimp said:
Sorry, but I thought you in on these conversations.

Mind you, Buckwheats heated monologues may have distracted all of us from the points he was trying to make re JV.
"No comment" isn't clear from him that he doped. It's clear that he's obfuscating, or not willing to take the PR hit objectively.

That was the earlier point many posters brought up. If he can't openly come clean, many people can't take his claim of the Clean Team seriously.

It's pretty simple, and I really don't think it's a case of crazy posters talking sh*t. It's just sort of an example of basic logic. If A then B, if not A then C, etc etc.

His honesty is creating a credibility gap for fans that want to believe in what he's doing (even me - I'd love institutional cleanliness more than anyone).

Hopefully I'm making sense, Mas.
I thought you said they brought you back on track?

Anyway, while watching some other sporting events during my time away, I got to thinking about how coaches/managers oftentimes argue almost violently against rulings that harm their teams.

Hesjedal came in 7th in the Super Bowl of cycling, one of the greatest sporting events in the world in its own right.

JV's own "clean" guy behind a podium that was almost assuredly jacked. He didn't get too upset that his "clean" guy was CHEATED out of contention for his just due.

Just sayin.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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buckwheat said:
I thought you said they brought you back on track?

Anyway, while watching some other sporting events during my time away, I got to thinking about how coaches/managers oftentimes argue almost violently against rulings that harm their teams.

Hesjedal came in 7th in the Super Bowl of cycling, one of the greatest sporting events in the world in its own right.

JV's own "clean" guy behind a podium that was almost assuredly jacked. He didn't get too upset that his "clean" guy was CHEATED out of contention for his just due.

Just sayin.
Two words come to mind. Pine tar.
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
Two words come to mind. Pine tar.
Good memories! Didn't that homer get reinstated?

Pinella also had some classic tantrums. Do you remember when he got thrown out at Home plate and was doing deep knee bends and was rolling around on the ground? Actually I don't know if it was LP that got thrown out or if he was on deck.
 
Oct 25, 2010
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buckwheat said:
Good memories! Didn't that homer get reinstated?

Pinella also had some classic tantrums. Do you remember when he got thrown out at Home plate and was doing deep knee bends and was rolling around on the ground? Actually I don't know if it was LP that got thrown out or if he was on deck.
I don't remember, but your post made me realize that there is "cheating" and then there is doping. And yes, there are different degrees of cheating. TexPat had decided that leaving Alexi hanging from the rope is the right move. Alexi never did anything in the domestic scene that any one of the rest of us wouldn't have done. I think all of that Caffeine and Ephedrine nonsense should have had a different penalty scale than EPO. They're not even the same. Pine tar and Pete Rose are different situations.
 
Jul 6, 2010
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buckwheat said:
I thought you said they brought you back on track?
Sorry about that. I said that they helped me refine my argument because your analogies forced me to examine why you were getting so p*ssed, and made me look at why I had so little faith in what JV was saying.

That 'all of us' comment was me trying to be nice and inclusive to the less cerebral of our foum comrades who seemed to be confounded with your metaphors.

Certainly not me trying to distance myself.

Bring it on, Buckwheat! Good to have you back.
 
May 20, 2010
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BotanyBay said:
I don't remember, but your post made me realize that there is "cheating" and then there is doping. And yes, there are different degrees of cheating. TexPat had decided that leaving Alexi hanging from the rope is the right move. Alexi never did anything in the domestic scene that any one of the rest of us wouldn't have done. I think all of that Caffeine and Ephedrine nonsense should have had a different penalty scale than EPO. They're not even the same. Pine tar and Pete Rose are different situations.
Don't like the "hanging from the rope" bit very much. Not a very nice image, and one that evokes a much harsher view than I espouse. However, doping is cheating (no tautology there!). There is no need to separate the two.
Lastly, your presumption that "any of the rest of us" would have done the same thing is ridiculous.
 

flicker

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Aug 17, 2009
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BotanyBay said:
I don't remember, but your post made me realize that there is "cheating" and then there is doping. And yes, there are different degrees of cheating. TexPat had decided that leaving Alexi hanging from the rope is the right move. Alexi never did anything in the domestic scene that any one of the rest of us wouldn't have done. I think all of that Caffeine and Ephedrine nonsense should have had a different penalty scale than EPO. They're not even the same. Pine tar and Pete Rose are different situations.
Doesn't ephedrine have a lingering benefit in sport after being used habitually for a long time. I understand the same with clen and steroids?
 

buckwheat

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Sep 24, 2009
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TexPat said:
Don't like the "hanging from the rope" bit very much. Not a very nice image, and one that evokes a much harsher view than I espouse. However, doping is cheating (no tautology there!). There is no need to separate the two.
Lastly, your presumption that "any of the rest of us" would have done the same thing is ridiculous.
I agree with you here.

I've taken a couple of PED's recreationally, (never competing) and even old school PED's can be the difference between winning and losing.

I've cheated on tests in Jr. High. Shoplifted stuff during that time in my life.

It's wrong. I've done other stuff that is immoral and wrong and cheating.

Always, always, always, do the right thing!

It's essential for the soul.
 

Skandar Akbar

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Nov 20, 2010
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flicker said:
Doesn't ephedrine have a lingering benefit in sport after being used habitually for a long time. I understand the same with clen and steroids?
Not according to some TDF winners.
 

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