JV talks, sort of

[sniper]

vaughters beating around the bush. goodness me, he can't bring out one straight sentence when it comes to doping.

"it's not that simple", "it's not black and white". blah blah blah.
"we gotta point the finger at ourselves first". "who's the goodguy? we're all in this together".

look how frankly he talks before the topic comes to doping. then, bam, stutter stutter, empty semantics.

ow, and of course there is the Walsh-anecdote. ("He came to my house, I helped him with his book, he stayed at my house for three days"). Vaughters' Walsh-shield. He used it in here. Didn't know that the anecdote goes back to 2003. Outdated!

check out the BS:

http://www.spreecast.com/events/tourchats-jonathan-vaughters

 

[Dr. Maserati]

vaughters beating around the bush. goodness me, he can't bring out one straight sentence when it comes to doping.

"it's not that simple", "it's not black and white". blah blah blah.
"we gotta point the finger at ourselves first". "who's the goodguy? we're all in this together".

look how frankly he talks before the topic comes to doping. then, bam, stutter stutter, empty semantics.

ow, and of course there is the Walsh-anecdote. ("He came to my house, I helped him with his book, he stayed at my house for three days"). Vaughters' Walsh-shield. He used it in here. Didn't know that the anecdote goes back to 2003. Outdated!

check out the BS:

http://www.spreecast.com/events/tourchats-jonathan-vaughters

You know - I have never once read a coherent argument from you about a solution to doping - or how anti-doping would actually work in snipers world view.

Please do so now - show JV how not to beat about the bush. Your input sounds like it could be a blueprint not only for the Clinic, or anti-doping in cycling but for all sport.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

vaughters beating around the bush. goodness me, he can't bring out one straight sentence when it comes to doping.

"it's not that simple", "it's not black and white". blah blah blah.
"we gotta point the finger at ourselves first". "who's the goodguy? we're all in this together".

look how frankly he talks before the topic comes to doping. then, bam, stutter stutter, empty semantics.

ow, and of course there is the Walsh-anecdote. ("He came to my house, I helped him with his book, he stayed at my house for three days"). Vaughters' Walsh-shield. He used it in here. Didn't know that the anecdote goes back to 2003. Outdated!

check out the BS:

http://www.spreecast.com/events/tourchats-jonathan-vaughters

I watched a lot of that live. Until I couldn't stand any more...

The two "journos" fawning over JV, and JV rambling on without any real info, was a bit too much for me. The high point was #EARPIECES quizing JV as to how much he thought radios resulted in doping. Really? WTF?

I actually had to sign off on twitter with: "Enough of that... Man, Americans like hearing themselves talk..."

 

[sniper]

You know - I have never once read a coherent argument from you about a solution to doping - or how anti-doping would actually work in snipers world view.

Please do so now - show JV how not to beat about the bush. Your input sounds like it could be a blueprint not only for the Clinic, or anti-doping in cycling but for all sport.

you tell me why you are not capable of calling BS on JV.

I forgot this quote from the Spreecast linked in my previous post:
"I realize, you know, how lucky these young guys are to be racing now, how lucky they are, you know, really".

 

[Dr. Maserati]

you tell me why you are not capable of calling BS on JV. The BS is clear to all but you.

Yet when I ask where is this "clear BS" you deflect? Why?

Show me exactly where this "clear BS". Stop deflecting. Say it or shut up.

I forgot this quote from the Spreecast linked in my previous post:
"I realize, you know, how lucky these young guys are to be racing now, how lucky they are, you know, really".

Do you you believe there is as much and as prolific doping in 2013 as there was in JVs time at USPS. Yes or no?

Remember - you don't want to be seen beating about the bush on this.

 

[blackcat]

I actually had to sign off on twitter with: "Enough of that... Man, Americans like hearing themselves talk..."

gonna quote you. aphorism worthy

 

[Benotti69]

Do you you believe there is as much and as prolific doping in 2013 as there was in JVs time at USPS. Yes or no?

We have just watched Sky dominate 2 week long races. So yep it would appear things are as prolific. Not the high HCTs but a lot of something is being taken.

Remember after Festina not everyone was doping then the 99 TdF told everyone it was game on again. Well Sky have signalled that it is game on.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

We have just watched Sky dominate 2 week long races. So yep it would appear things are as prolific. Not the high HCTs but a lot of something is being taken.

Remember after Festina not everyone was doping then the 99 TdF told everyone it was game on again. Well Sky have signalled that it is game on.

Since you feel compelled to answer - go back and read my question. It is quite specific and I don't see what one team(Sky, and I agree with you) is doing as answering it.

 

[Benotti69]

You know - I have never once read a coherent argument from you about a solution to doping - or how anti-doping would actually work in snipers world view.

Please do so now - show JV how not to beat about the bush. Your input sounds like it could be a blueprint not only for the Clinic, or anti-doping in cycling but for all sport.

JV isn't looking for a solution. He is looking for a reasonalble level playing field. Big difference.

IF JV was anti doping he wouldn't be calling Sky a clean team. He would say nothing at worst and that he doesn't know at least or they have to answer the questions about Leinders at best.

 

[Froome19]

He would say nothing at worst and that he doesn't know at least

Well that would be daft because he knows better than you

 

[Dr. Maserati]

JV isn't looking for a solution. He is looking for a reasonalble level playing field. Big difference.

It isn't JVs job to find a solution.
He runs a team - all that anyone can ask is that his team are clean.

IF JV was anti doping he wouldn't be calling Sky a clean team. He would say nothing at worst and that he doesn't know at least or they have to answer the questions about Leinders at best.

Why wouldn't he? Didn't Walsh say the same? Again your conclusion is based on the sure assumption that Sky are doping.
Hate to break it to you - not everyone agrees with you.

Now, I agree - he shouldn't really say anything regarding any other team because if they do go boom it would be a bad reflection on them even though they had no control over what others do.

 

[Oldman]

I watched a lot of that live. Until I couldn't stand any more...

The two "journos" fawning over JV, and JV rambling on without any real info, was a bit too much for me. The high point was #EARPIECES quizing JV as to how much he thought radios resulted in doping. Really? WTF?

I actually had to sign off on twitter with: "Enough of that... Man, Americans like hearing themselves talk..."

WTF? All bike racers are arrogant. Have you studied the most recent Tour winner or any Aussies?

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

[/B]

WTF? All bike racers are arrogant. Have you studied the most recent Tour winner or any Aussies?

WTF? I was watching a chat consisting solely of Americans.

Don't worry, I'll pick on anyone. Sorry to have upset your delicate sensibilities...

 

[Benotti69]

It isn't JVs job to find a solution.
He runs a team - all that anyone can ask is that his team are clean.

I would've thought it was in everyone in the sports interest to find a solution. I exclude the doping doctors and dope dealers.

Why wouldn't he? Didn't Walsh say the same? Again your conclusion is based on the sure assumption that Sky are doping.
Hate to break it to you - not everyone agrees with you.

All we can ever do is assume the teams and riders are doping, because the testing is not going to to tell us. We rely on the police or journalists to prove it. Remember this sport has a history. And sadly, even though Hincapie, Leipheimer and others would have us believe they all stopped in 2006, this is pro cycling with all the same characters from the 90s still inhabiting it top to bottom.

Now, I agree - he shouldn't really say anything regarding any other team because if they do go boom it would be a bad reflection on them even though they had no control over what others do.

No doubt he will have an excuse. But he will look stupid when it is uncovered but JV with his big fancy MBMA will be long gone to some high powered corp where he will be in the finance doping game and having a laugh at that little ol sport of cycling.

 

[sniper]

It isn't JVs job to find a solution.
He runs a team - all that anyone can ask is that his team are clean.


Why wouldn't he? Didn't Walsh say the same? Again your conclusion is based on the sure assumption that Sky are doping.
Hate to break it to you - not everyone agrees with you.

Now, I agree - he shouldn't really say anything regarding any other team because if they do go boom it would be a bad reflection on them even though they had no control over what others do.

his twitter reads "dedicated my life to anti-doping". So not sure what you're on about, but JV disagrees with you.

But I agree with you, It'S not his job. And you know what?
It's not his job to come in here and keep us for fools either. Yet that's what he does.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I would've thought it was in everyone in the sports interest to find a solution. I exclude the doping doctors and dope dealers.

I would agree it is - (although not everyone in the sport agrees).
But it is not JVs job.

And he has been very vocal about various solutions.

All we can ever do is assume the teams and riders are doping, because the testing is not going to to tell us. We rely on the police or journalists to prove it. Remember this sport has a history. And sadly, even though Hincapie, Leipheimer and others would have us believe they all stopped in 2006, this is pro cycling with all the same characters from the 90s still inhabiting it top to bottom.



No doubt he will have an excuse. But he will look stupid when it is uncovered but JV with his big fancy MBMA will be long gone to some high powered corp where he will be in the finance doping game and having a laugh at that little ol sport of cycling.

So JV is retiring? (or is this more made up stuff)
Surely this makes you happy? Right?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

his twitter reads "dedicated my life to anti-doping". So not sure what you're on about, but JV disagrees with you.

But I agree with you, It'S not his job. And you know what?
It's not his job to come in here and keep us for fools either. Yet that's what he does.

firstly - where is the nice consise post explaining your solutions?
Stop beating about the bush, or I will start calling you JVwannabe

Just to be clear - "dedicated my life to anti-doping" is a job title? Good to know.

 

[Benotti69]

I would agree it is - (although not everyone in the sport agrees).
But it is not JVs job.

His twitter byline says he dedicated to anti doping.

So JV is retiring? (or is this more made up stuff)
Surely this makes you happy? Right?

Where did i say he is retiring?

He has commented more than once in here how he is studying for or has an MBMA and has had offers from big Corps for his 'talents' and could be earning big bucks rather than run a pro cycling team.

JV is not the first DS i want to see out of the sport, but I would not miss him should he go.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

His twitter byline says he dedicated to anti doping.

Seriously?
So what? It is not a job title. It is a statement.

Where did i say he is retiring?

He has commented more than once in here how he is studying for or has an MBMA and has had offers from big Corps for his 'talents' and could be earning big bucks rather than run a pro cycling team.

JV is not the first DS i want to see out of the sport, but I would not miss him should he go.

You said he would be "long gone".
So, is he going or not - what does twitter say?

 

[sniper]

firstly - where is the nice consise post explaining your solutions?
Stop beating about the bush, or I will start calling you JVwannabe

Just to be clear - "dedicated my life to anti-doping" is a job title? Good to know.

One clear solution is a different UCI president, something JV hasn't fought for.
(And JV's public support for Kimmage has also been lukewarm)

Another thing is to keep the media sharp and hungry.
JV hasn't done that either. Instead, he's been campagning that Sky/Wiggo are clean(er?) and that all is better now.

Another thing is to publish physiological/blood data of the riders.
JV recently adviced Wiggo against doing so.

Another thing is to complain when dopers are allowed to race. JV was silent in 2009/10.

JV did recently propose independent testing, which is obviously one of the most important issues, but gosh it took him some time to come up with that. He comes with it now, when it is least controversial. It does make him look good in the eyes of the average, mainstream anti-doping brigade though, which is his target audience for obvious reasons.
And: proposing that in an opinion piece is still something completely different from "dedicating" oneself to it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

One clear solution is a different UCI president, something JV hasn't fought for.
(And JV's public support for Kimmage has also been lukewarm)

So, you had an hour to go off and think and your opening salve is that changing Presidents is a "clear solution"?
Do you think all the dopers will stop because of a new President?
That's not a solution let alone a clear one.

And JV is not in a position to be too critical of McQ.
And he was very supportive of Kimmage - he said it right here it was not right to go after PK.

Another thing is to keep the media sharp and hungry.
JV hasn't done that either. Instead, he's been campagning that Sky/Wiggo are clean(er?) and that all is better now.

How do you dear sniper plan to do that?

And then explain how JV has any better way than you.

Another thing is to publish physiological/blood data of the riders.
JV recently adviced Wiggo against doing so.

Wiggins did it before - on JVs team. No thanks for JV there?

Releasing data is not a solution - it's PR, I am disgusted that you would engage in this, tut tut sniper.

Another thing is to complain when dopers are allowed to race. JV was silent in 2009/10.

Who are you on about?
Or are you on about retroactively giving out?

And also not a solution.

JV did recently propose independent testing, which is obviously one of the most important issues, but gosh it took him some time to come up with that. He comes with it now, when it is least controversial. It does make him look good in the eyes of the average anti-doping brigade though.
And: proposing that in an opinion piece is still something completely different from "dedicating" oneself to it.

Independent testing is the issue Sniper.
Every other piece was guff. And it should be noted that his team way back when actually did their own testing.

 

[Benotti69]

Seriously?
So what? It is not a job title. It is a statement.

How far do you want to split the hair? to the o.oooooooooonth!

It aint a job title, it is a vocation, a hobby, a lie, a whim, a thought.......take it up with JV.

You said he would be "long gone".
So, is he going or not - what does twitter say?

I said when it all comes out about sky, he will be long gone no doubt.

But i think it must be your time of the month the way you are responding. It is ok. It happens

 

[sniper]

So, you had an hour to go off and think and your opening salve is that changing Presidents is a "clear solution"?
Do you think all the dopers will stop because of a new President?
That's not a solution let alone a clear one.

And JV is not in a position to be too critical of McQ.
And he was very supportive of Kimmage - he said it right here it was not right to go after PK.


How do you dear sniper plan to do that?

And then explain how JV has any better way than you.

Wiggins did it before - on JVs team. No thanks for JV there?

Releasing data is not a solution - it's PR, I am disgusted that you would engage in this, tut tut sniper.

Who are you on about?
Or are you on about retroactively giving out?

And also not a solution.


Independent testing is the issue Sniper.
Every other piece was guff. And it should be noted that his team way back when actually did their own testing.

to the underscored: why is he not in a position to criticize Phat? He was in a position to threaten with starting a breakaway league together with our friend Johan.

to the bold: didn't I say lukewarm?

independent testing is the issue, but it had been spelled out already by CCN. Not as if it's JV's idea. And as I said, he proposes it at a time when it is least controversial and most beneficial for his mainstream image as doping fighter.

btw, did you read the rest of that opinion piece? Indeed, it's fluff.
I'm not sure why you feel a need to stand up for fluff, rather than just calling it fluff.

 

[sniper]

@dr maserati:
hypothetically: what if Wiggo 2009 and Hesjedal 2012 weren't as clean as JV claims?

 

[sniper]

bottom line: with his current positions, claims, statements, etc., I think JV frustrates change, rather than triggering it.
as MJM said: reactive rather than proactive
(and that's my point also with his call for independent testing: reactive, and at a PR-strategically smart moment. Not proactive).