JV talks, sort of

[Benotti69]

So clearly if Froome were juiced at Barloworld, he wasn't reacting to it anywhere near as well as Cobo was at Saunier Duval but thankfully Froome is now responding to the great juice at SKY whilst the juice at Movistar is clearly not reacting well with Cobo at all.

So at the end of the day, as you believe they were juiced all the time, you still have no way of knowing that Cobo is more naturally talented than Froome but you are doing so anyways. Got it.

Glad you finally got it.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

He is in a position to know - you are not.

See this is where you distort things. There is little doubt that the Bio Passport did change things. But like all things people will find a way around it.
That is the danger - and JV has acknowledged that. But you guys drown it out.

What has the Bio Passport changed? Speeds?

DiLuca and Santambrogio were doping but not caught by the Bio Passport. If JV's quote that Horner's BioPassport profile is hilarious, yet Horner's still out winning Grand Tours, what has changed?

JV has a vested interest in saying "things have changed." He profits from the bike industry. He doesn't want sponsors to go off running. I see no reason to put any credence into his claims when what I see is quite the contrary.

 

[pmcg76]

What has the Bio Passport changed? Speeds?

DiLuca and Santambrogio were doping but not caught by the Bio Passport. If JV's quote that Horner's BioPassport profile is hilarious, yet Horner's still out winning Grand Tours, what has changed?

JV has a vested interest in saying "things have changed." He profits from the bike industry. He doesn't want sponsors to go off running. I see no reason to put any credence into his claims when what I see is quite the contrary.

You just completely ignored the point of the post.

JV said the passport had changed things but if more time and money was not spent on it, then it would become worthless again. So now we are starting to see crazy performances again so it could be that JVs point was bang on.

Passport slowed things but the dopers are now getting ahead again. The sport might have gotten cleaner over the last few years but as others have stated we could be seeing an upping over the arm's race again.

Doping is never stationary.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

What has the Bio Passport changed? Speeds?

Hold on - do you think the BP 'worked' or acted as a deterrent when it first came out?

DiLuca and Santambrogio were doping but not caught by the Bio Passport. If JV's quote that Horner's BioPassport profile is hilarious, yet Horner's still out winning Grand Tours, what has changed?

Sure, but they are this year.
Again - as I said earlier, the BP did work and the guys have found the holes in it. The UCI have not bothered to plug it properly (and JV acknowledged that too)

JV has a vested interest in saying "things have changed." He profits from the bike industry. He doesn't want sponsors to go off running. I see no reason to put any credence into his claims when what I see is quite the contrary.

JV is selling 'clean cycling' - yet he derives no income from it except through a sponsor.
Off the top of my head - BMC, Katusha & Tinkoff would have much larger budgets - and less chance of them bailing if they do trip up.

 

[pmcg76]

Glad you finally got it.

Except that is not what you were saying before. You were arguing Cobo was more talented than Froome. How do you know that?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Hold on - do you think the BP 'worked' or acted as a deterrent when it first came out?

Don't answer a question with a question. If you don't know the answer, just say so.

Sure, but they are this year.
Again - as I said earlier, the BP did work and the guys have found the holes in it. The UCI have not bothered to plug it properly (and JV acknowledged that too)

No, just because you SAY the BP worked doesn't mean it is true. I'll refer you to the JV comment on Horner yet again.

JV is selling 'clean cycling' - yet he derives no income from it except through a sponsor.
Off the top of my head - BMC, Katusha & Tinkoff would have much larger budgets - and less chance of them bailing if they do trip up.

Except through a sponsor? That's exactly the point. Vaughters would be worse off if sponsors bailed because they felt cycling was a dirty sport and a potential negative attention. See Rabobank and others.

Not sure what relevance you see in BMC/Katusha/Tinkoff. Tinkoff doesn't even have a pro-tour team as of next year.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Don't answer a question with a question. If you don't know the answer, just say so.

No, just because you SAY the BP worked doesn't mean it is true. I'll refer you to the JV comment on Horner yet again.

Moose - dont call all sniper on me.

I gave my answer - you responded to it.

As for JV Horner comment - this is the JV quote that is nowhere public. I have seen RRs post, and Willertons tweet - thats it.
Even of JV has seen Horners BP, when was it for? And if you take it as fact then wouldn't it mean that Horners is so amusing, it stands out from the norm?

Except through a sponsor? That's exactly the point. Vaughters would be worse off if sponsors bailed because they felt cycling was a dirty sport and a potential negative attention. See Rabobank and others.

Not sure what relevance you see in BMC/Katusha/Tinkoff. Tinkoff doesn't even have a pro-tour team as of next year.

Rabobank bailed because the team management lied.

Do you think BMC as Phonak 2.0 are selling Andy Rihs clean cycling?
Tinkoff isn't going because they are doping - in fact it could be because he thinks AC has gone soft on it.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Moose - dont call all sniper on me.

I gave my answer - you responded to it.

As for JV Horner comment - this is the JV quote that is nowhere public. I have seen RRs post, and Willertons tweet - thats it.
Even of JV has seen Horners BP, when was it for? And if you take it as fact then wouldn't it mean that Horners is so amusing, it stands out from the norm?


Rabobank bailed because the team management lied.

Do you think BMC as Phonak 2.0 are selling Andy Rihs clean cycling?
Tinkoff isn't going because they are doping - in fact it could be because he thinks AC has gone soft on it.

No, honestly, you gave no answer, you just responded with a question.
If you don't believe JV said that about Horner, fair enough.

I have yet to see any evidence that the BP "worked" other than claims from parties that are interested in claiming that it did. Everything I see in pro cycling contradicts the claim that BP is anything but a facade, a spray of deodorant into a full toilet.

I was not saying Tinkoff was going because of doping. I don't see what relevance your bringing him up in the first place is.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No, honestly, you gave no answer, you just responded with a question.
If you don't believe JV said that about Horner, fair enough.

I have yet to see any evidence that the BP "worked" other than claims from parties that are interested in claiming that it did. Everything I see in pro cycling contradicts the claim that BP is anything but a facade, a spray of deodorant into a full toilet.

I was not saying Tinkoff was going because of doping. I don't see what relevance your bringing him up in the first place is.

Well, just so I am clear.
I do think it acted as a deterrent - which would automatically mean that people would curb their use until they figured a way around it. Cleaner for a while.
How long would/did that last? Not too long.

I also believe that sniper & benoti do not understand the important recent history of 2006-2008 - saying things like nothing has changed and referring back to the early 2000s and earlier, is pointless because things have changed.
Both anti-doping and doping will evolve and dopers & enablers will change their behaviours. But dismissing everything as PR as is as foolish as believing all PR.

 

[sittingbison]

Ok, time to draw a line in the sand.

Enough!!

Enough of the tiresome circular arguments, self aggrandisement and baiting trolling insulting personally attacking nitpicking pedantic BS that has completely derailed this thread... and DrMas I am not specifically calling out you with that last one it applies to everyone, easch and every one of you.

This thread is about JV speaks. That's it. Discuss whatever pontification, pronouncement, interview or tweet JV makes to your heart content.

Do NOT discuss each other. I expect the next discussion to be about JVs next "speaks", if it's not everyone participating will enjoy the fruits of their labour. And I mean everyone. So don't feel the need to participate.

Bison

 

[hrotha]

I know that you are completely one-eyed, but really, even you know that this is not comparable. For a full time professional, on a top tier team, who is actually riding as opposed to lying in a hospital bed, to get zero cq points in year is a truly remarkable achievement. To follow that up with a Grand Tour win the next year is completely unique and will likely remain so until the heat death of the universe. Nobody in the world of cycling has a more bizarre set of year on year results.

Froome had badzilla, Cobo had (and continues to have) serious psychological problems. Depression is not any less real or hard-hitting (results-wise) than "lying in a hospital bed".

 

[sittingbison]

I'll let hrothas post stand but that's it.

Enough.

Bison

 

[sniper]

...
This thread is about JV speaks. That's it.

+1

One of jv's latest (I posted it already but it got lost in some whirlpool):

“Culturally, it’s 180 degrees from when I was racing,” Vaughters said. “If you look at it today, the people that make the decision (to dope) are quickly ostracized. It’s not accepted. It’s not what the cool kids do anymore ” (August 2013)

Horner, according to some the most obvious doper of the moment, isn't exactly being ostracized by the peloton, is he? I rather understood that Horner is quite popular in the peloton. So where's the change in culture?

Perhaps he means: "those who actually get caught are ostracized"?
That would at least explain why a guy like Ricco was indeed ostracized, whilst Horner seems to be a popular bloke.

 

[sniper]

There’s a loud chorus of those within the sport who claim that cycling is more credible, and perhaps the cleanest it has ever been in its history. But we’ve heard it all before.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/09/news/analysis-pro-cycling-remains-a-faith-game_303005

is it fair to say that this "loud chorus" is mostly Sky and Garmin?

 

[Von Mises]

I rather understood that Horner is quite popular in the peloton. So where's the change in culture?

Why do you think that Horner is quite popular in peloton. I do not have such impression.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Why do you think that Horner is quite popular in peloton. I do not have such impression.

For me, doing an extrapolation from a published diary entry, I'd say the peloton's attitude towards Chris Horner is neutral at worst.

If Horner, who carries little weight (x2), was persona non grata in the peloton, I doubt Cam Wurf would devote so much of an entry to talking about how cool Chris was.

Chris Horner ended up being my buddy today and it was great hearing a few stories of his. I really enjoy chatting with Chris because he is such an honest dude. What you see is what you get and he certainly does things his way. He is famous for his love of fast food and consequently his pockets are filled with cakes, Mars bars, and cans of Coke. He is the best guy to be close to in the feed zone and you can always pick up a delicious treat from him.

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/09/cam-wurfs-vuelta-diary-new-buddy-in-the-bunch/

As long as he does not bring unwelcome doping outcomes, his victory actually provides much largess for older riders specifically, but all of them in general, to push the envelope.

 

[Von Mises]

For me, doing an extrapolation from a published diary entry, I'd say the peloton's attitude towards Chris Horner is neutral at worst.

If Horner, who carries little weight (x2), was persona non grata in the peloton, I doubt Cam Wurf would devote so much of an entry to talking about how cool Chris was.

I am not saying that he is persona no grata or he is unpopular. I would say that peoloton (though, in reality peloton does not exist, it is just bunch of riders from different countries and different languages, majority of them do not know each other and meet only in competition here and there) does not have an opinion, popular on unpopular of Horner.

 

[Ferminal]

Wurfie has a thing for ex-dopers.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I am not saying that he is persona no grata or he is unpopular. I would say that peoloton (though, in reality peloton does not exist, it is just bunch of riders from different countries and different languages, majority of them do not know each other and meet only in competition here and there) does not have an opinion, popular on unpopular of Horner.

There was no shortage of people congratulating Horner and patting him on the back. Even Eurosport commented on how popular he is in the peloton.

Hincapie was still very popular even after his admissions of doping. Valverde is a former doper, and I don't see that he's ostracized. Zabriskie, Vandevelde, Contador. Entire teams are run by former unabashed dopers, and I don't see any complaints from the peloton.

This idea that anyone who dopes is "ostracized" is patent nonsense. The more JV talks, the clear it is how full of sh!t he is.

 

[sniper]

There was no shortage of people congratulating Horner and patting him on the back. Even Eurosport commented on how popular he is in the peloton.

Hincapie was still very popular even after his admissions of doping. Valverde is a former doper, and I don't see that he's ostracized. Zabriskie, Vandevelde, Contador. Entire teams are run by former unabashed dopers, and I don't see any complaints from the peloton.

This idea that anyone who dopes is "ostracized" is patent nonsense. The more JV talks, the clear it is how full of sh!t he is.

indeed that's what i had heard.

good post by the way.

 

[Beech Mtn]

This idea that anyone who dopes is "ostracized" is patent nonsense. The more JV talks, the clear it is how full of sh!t he is.

Agree with Moose. Horner has a reputation being popular, Ricco's rep was that of an obnoxious guy who ****ed off his peers. I think, with the rider reactions, it probably comes down more to giving a "pass" to good guys you generally like and singling out a few who are caught, either because you don't care for them personally, or there's some PR advantage to be had by bashing caught dopers.

When Contador went poz, lots of guys supported him. Di Luca's been bashed during both of his last two positives. Sayar was bashed. Lots of guys carried water for Lance long after Floyd's admissions. Each case is different. Some barely even register - all those Rusvelo guys, for example.

 

[Von Mises]

There was no shortage of people congratulating Horner and patting him on the back. Even Eurosport commented on how popular he is in the peloton.

It is Eurosport, what do you expect of them? Eurosport, at least their English speaking commentators have no clue, what non-English speaking part of peloton thinks or feels.

Hincapie was still very popular even after his admissions of doping. Valverde is a former doper, and I don't see that he's ostracized. Zabriskie, Vandevelde, Contador. Entire teams are run by former unabashed dopers, and I don't see any complaints from the peloton.

This idea that anyone who dopes is "ostracized" is patent nonsense. The more JV talks, the clear it is how full of sh!t he is.

JV´s "ostracized quote" is just one quote from larger picture. I do not agree with it, but it is just one quote for one newspaper piece. Considering what Vaughters have talked elsewhere, I believe that he understands quite well that things are not so simple black and white.

/.../
I real world things are complicated. It is easy to point fingers under anonymity of internet, but it is harder to say publicly with your own name and face on cover, especially if you do not have concrete evidence. For instance, what Tanel Kangert had to say about Horner after Vuelta. Not much, but he said that before Vuelta (and Astana) did not think of Horner, that during 3 weeks tour 42-year old man should not recover every day the same way as 20-year old recovers, but apparently Horner is exception. What can you take from it? Surprise? Suspicion? Maybe in privately he can say more, but publicly it is difficult.

Even if I assume that cycling has changed, is cleaner or changing to cleaner, in reality it is not simple process with clear on/off. Of course there are (former) dopers and (former) dirty team managers and even if you are clean cyclist you still have to deal with it. in clack and white world it is always simple, I am clean, he is/was dirty and so I ostracize him, but in real world it can also be I am clean, he is/was dirty, but at the same time he is also my colleague who helped me in the road or who laughed my joke over dinner table.

Anyway, my point - it is complicated and some members of Clinic have unrealistic demands.

 

[sniper]

It is Eurosport, what do you expect of them? Eurosport, at least their English speaking commentators have no clue, what non-English speaking part of peloton thinks or feels.



JV´s "ostracized quote" is just one quote from larger picture. I do not agree with it, but it is just one quote for one newspaper piece. Considering what Vaughters have talked elsewhere, I believe that he understands quite well that things are not so simple black and white.

/.../
I real world things are complicated. It is easy to point fingers under anonymity of internet, but it is harder to say publicly with your own name and face on cover, especially if you do not have concrete evidence. For instance, what Tanel Kangert had to say about Horner after Vuelta. Not much, but he said that before Vuelta (and Astana) did not think of Horner, that during 3 weeks tour 42-year old man should not recover every day the same way as 20-year old recovers, but apparently Horner is exception. What can you take from it? Surprise? Suspicion? Maybe in privately he can say more, but publicly it is difficult.

Even if I assume that cycling has changed, is cleaner or changing to cleaner, in reality it is not simple process with clear on/off. Of course there are (former) dopers and (former) dirty team managers and even if you are clean cyclist you still have to deal with it. in clack and white world it is always simple, I am clean, he is/was dirty and so I ostracize him, but in real world it can also be I am clean, he is/was dirty, but at the same time he is also my colleague who helped me in the road or who laughed my joke over dinner table.

Anyway, my point - it is complicated and some members of Clinic have unrealistic demands.

JV would do less harm to cycling and more good to anti-doping if he'd say nothing.
The cleaner-message is for his wallet and nothing else.

the only thing vaughters is achieving is he keeps journalists from digging deeper, rather than inviting them to do their job.
Not clever, unless that's exactly what he wants of course.

Just briefly recall Walsh.
In one of his first interviews wrt Team Sky, he said he believed in Sky because Vaughters had told him they were clean. (sorry no time to look for link). If that's what vaughters hopes to achieve, well kudos.

 

[wansteadimp]

It is Eurosport, what do you expect of them? Eurosport, at least their English speaking commentators have no clue, what non-English speaking part of peloton thinks or feels.

It is Eurosport, what do you expect of them? Eurosport, at least their English speaking commentators have no clue.

FIFY

 

[Von Mises]

JV would do less harm to cycling and more good to anti-doping if he'd say nothing.
The cleaner-message is for his wallet and nothing else.

the only thing vaughters is achieving is he keeps journalists from digging deeper, rather than inviting them to do their job.
Not clever, unless that's exactly what he wants of course.

Just briefly recall Walsh.
In one of his first interviews wrt Team Sky, he said he believed in Sky because Vaughters had told him they were clean. (sorry no time to look for link). If that's what vaughters hopes to achieve, well kudos.

I see you have edited your original post... But anyway. It is complex process, lot of people are involved - optimists, pessimists, sceptics, critics etc - you need all of them.
Walsh is adult and Vaughters is not his nanny, he can think with his own head and if sees new evidence, can change his mind.