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JV talks, sort of

Page 23 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Oct 16, 2010
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the big ring said:
Which action of mine would you like me to examine, and to what end? Seriously? This guy is sounding more and more like he speaks fluent obfuscation and you've bought into it.

What the hell does that last quote even mean? I speak English as a first language and can see no real value in that quote. Unless you think you can use it to stop me from questioning JV?

true. the quote is rather cryptic.
perhaps he meant to say "the team's actions" instead of "their own actions".

But again, JV isn't putting his money where his mouth is.
A couple of pages back in this thread Tyler's Twin attempted to make a few justified critical comments and subsequently got called a "self-righteous knucklehead" by JV. Sounded much like Wiggins' recent ranting.
 
May 26, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
To the blue - actually, how do you know?

Because your Rasmussen point is flawed - he was with HTC at the time, (or are they a doping team too?) and he one of his missed was because he failed to submit his quarterly form on time. One of the other occasions he was at an event where he was tested. He would be the dopiest doper ever.

I dont know more than you do know.

As for Rasmussen, he missed 3 OOC tests. So the rules dont allow for getting tested at a race. Getting tested at racing means nothing nowadays, most of the time. Just witnessed a team ride a 3 week race without having a bad day or getting fatigued.

HTC clean? Nope.
 
May 26, 2010
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roundabout said:
Really?

Rasmussen, Sella, Jaksche, Sinkewitz.



Of course, it's not up to Vaughters to give them all a job, but no point in pretending that Vaughters has hired 100% of dopers who said how it was.

Kohl, Di Luca and Frei.
 
the big ring said:
Which action of mine would you like me to examine, and to what end? Seriously? This guy is sounding more and more like he speaks fluent obfuscation and you've bought into it.

What the hell does that last quote even mean? I speak English as a first language and can see no real value in that quote. Unless you think you can use it to stop me from questioning JV?
What? No. I took the quote to mean it's encouraging people like us to scrutinize Slipstream closely. The meaning of the last bit is obvious if you read what goes immediately after it:
“There is a choice in cycling,” he said in his prepared remarks. “You can choose to turn a blind eye and cheer for glory at all costs. You can write gauzy stories about artificial heroes, or you can choose to cheer for humanity and choose to celebrate the rarity of victory and perfection.”
Chill.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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roundabout said:
Really?

Rasmussen, Sella, Jaksche, Sinkewitz.


Of course, it's not up to Vaughters to give them all a job, but no point in pretending that Vaughters has hired 100% of dopers who said how it was.
Benotti69 said:
Kohl, Di Luca and Frei.
Hold on - the (Carruts) criteria was :
"Garmin haven't hired anyone who did a real tell-all which actually implicated many people."

None of the above fit that.

By all means be critical and question JV or Garmin for what they set out to do, but its pretty ridiculous to criticize for something that cannot be done.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
Hold on - the (Carruts) criteria was :
"Garmin haven't hired anyone who did a real tell-all which actually implicated many people."

None of the above fit that.

By all means be critical and question JV or Garmin for what they set out to do, but its pretty ridiculous to criticize for something that cannot be done.

Really, Sinkewitz hasn't implicated Klöden?

Jaksche hasn't implicated Riis?

Sella hadn't named his suppliers?

Rasmussen didn't say that his team management was aware of his whereabouts? Or that UCI was putting pressure on teams not to sign him?

You hold on.
 

Dr. Maserati

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the big ring said:
Methinks thou loveth too blindly :p




Rather than confidently and succinctly tell me what his mission is, every poster to date has said "You know what it is", or, "JV wrote something over here", "JV said something in this video".

Really!? :eek: It's like the emperor's effing new clothes ffs. :confused:

Here is what JV wrote:



This is telling - he's concerned with the bottom line. And apparently is anti-doping first, results second. If only it said that somewhere on his website - you know - the public face of his business. And there's nothing about transparency in there. Or something like, "They know if they dope (not get caught, just dope) - they are OUT!".

Here's the brutal reality: results get sponsorship $$. Nothing else. Which is why you can have 2 bad performances before JV ditches you. Or 3 or 4.

2008: http://www.slipstreamsports.com/200...-edge®-705-to-elite-cycling-team’s-training-2


Did JV create the UCI's athlete's blood passport? Is that how he got on the anti-doping board? Isn't this JV's team's data, done by him - NOT the UCI? Has he released these results? Can we have some transparency, please?

No more team-based testing in 2009 - I guess ABP is handled by someone else now. Sorry, I can't show you the data any more, but let me assure you, it's definitely getting cleaner.

2009: http://www.slipstreamsports.com/200...orship-of-team-garmin-slipstream-through-2013

https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/235466483029901313



Sorry JV. With Brad Wiggins, I had not been paying much attention until he implied I was a ****ing ****er. Then I had a really close look and didn't like what I saw at all.

I had not been paying much attention to you either, until you came out. You write well, and I dismissed the ChrisE's of the world but more careful analysis of your words lead me to really question what you stand for. It's been an interesting experience trying to find out. And I still want to know if you can guarantee your 2009 Tour team was clean.

Of course he is concerned with his bottom line - while Ellis is there they do not have the funds to throw at the team like Katusha or BMC.

However, to the blue - that is simply wrong. Exposure, trumps results.
AG2R in 2009 had (IIRC) 8 wins, (wiki says 5) - yet it was their most successful season because they held on to the Yellow Jersey for 8 stages.
 

Dr. Maserati

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roundabout said:
Really, Sinkewitz hasn't implicated Klöden?

Jaksche hasn't implicated Riis?

Sella hadn't named his suppliers?

Rasmussen didn't say that his team management was aware of his whereabouts?

You hold on.
Ya really -
"Garmin haven't hired anyone who did a real tell-all which actually implicated many people."

Sella is about the only one who spoke to authorities and named people, but can you name his suppliers?
In Garmin Dekker was hired on condition he spoke with WADA, and we will find out soon enough others who spoke to USADA.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Benotti69 said:
I dont know more than you do know.

As for Rasmussen, he missed 3 OOC tests. So the rules dont allow for getting tested at a race. Getting tested at racing means nothing nowadays, most of the time. Just witnessed a team ride a 3 week race without having a bad day or getting fatigued.
No, he did not.
Regardless he did deserve his sanction.

Benotti69 said:
HTC clean? Nope.
It was a rhetorical question really - when you believe every team in the pro bunch dopes of course HTC cannot be clean.
 
Wow. You are quibbling over how many is many. I suppose it's not surprising though.

And yes. I know at least one person who supplied Sella.

Bet you didn't expect that, huh.

And I am not sure where people speaking to USADA come into it. Unless they haven't been employed by Garmin before, but will be because they spoke out. Or they were employed by Garmin, but it's because of their testimony the proceedings began, not because of that wacko Floyd.

Edit 2. Why do you think Sinkewitz got a 1 year ban? Or Jaksche?
 
May 26, 2010
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la.margna said:
Fully agree. His confession didn't come from the heart, just for the purpose.

I doubt anyone's apart from Paul kimmage's came from the heart!

Di Luca did what he had to do to get back into the sport. He was facing a lifetime ban. He still apparently named people.

Wonder did Millar name his supplier?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Ya really -
"Garmin haven't hired anyone who did a real tell-all which actually implicated many people."

Sella is about the only one who spoke to authorities and named people, but can you name his suppliers?
In Garmin Dekker was hired on condition he spoke with WADA, and we will find out soon enough others who spoke to USADA.

Jaksche and Landis are clear cases IMO. Both implied a lot of people (Jaksche not only implied Riis, but explicitly also Contador and, if that's not enough, his suppliers) and both tried to get back into cycling.
Not a word from JV on their behalf, not even a supporting tweet.

He did recently take the effort to support Wiggo through twitter. Why?
JV himself doesn't honestly believe Wiggo is clean, I reckon.
I assume his interest in supporting Wiggo is to support his own mantra that cycling is really getting cleaner.
 
May 26, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
No, he did not.
Regardless he did deserve his sanction.

Yes Rasmussen deserves his sanction for being a dopey doper.

Dr. Maserati said:
It was a rhetorical question really - when you believe every team in the pro bunch dopes of course HTC cannot be clean.

Yeah I do, i haven't seen anything to make me believe that teams dont dope. Their maybe a small % of riders that dont dope, 1 or 2%, but it is still ingrained in the sport. Too much money made by people running the doping (docs, agents, pharmacists and DS etc) to have it any other way.

Just have to have a look at who the DSs are to see the ingrained doping culture in cycling!
 

Dr. Maserati

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roundabout said:
Wow. You are quibbling over how many is many. I suppose it's not surprising though.
You're the one who is quibbling - i asked how many riders are there?

Manzano & Landis are the only 2 that come to mind.

roundabout said:
And yes. I know at least one person who supplied Sella.

Bet you didn't expect that, huh.
Great - whats their name.

roundabout said:
And I am not sure where people speaking to USADA come into it. Unless they haven't been employed by Garmin before, but will be because they spoke out. Or they were employed by Garmin, but it's because of their testimony the proceedings began, not because of that wacko Floyd.

Edit 2. Why do you think Sinkewitz got a 1 year ban? Or Jaksche?
It is the whole reason of this discussion - Garmin are bad for not hiring people who "told all", then of course when they do, they are bad because they didn't hire every single rider that confessed to get a reduction.
Of course if they do that then Garmin are evil for not giving fresh faced non doping teens the chance to ride.
 
Aug 7, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
Yes Rasmussen deserves his sanction for being a dopey doper.



Yeah I do, i haven't seen anything to make me believe that teams dont dope. Their maybe a small % of riders that dont dope, 1 or 2%, but it is still ingrained in the sport. Too much money made by people running the doping (docs, agents, pharmacists and DS etc) to have it any other way.

Just have to have a look at who the DSs are to see the ingrained doping culture in cycling!

Disagree. For sure there is doping and there will always be doping, but I believe the scale and scope of the problem is on the decline. The risks and consequences of doping, particularly where it is a criminal act, are too painful. In Italy, you're banned for just talking to Ferrari. Hats off for having the balls to make 'talking' an offence.......compare that to the pathetic circus act we have going on with the USADA and a Texas judge on jurisdiction.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Benotti69 said:
I doubt anyone's apart from Paul kimmage's came from the heart!

Di Luca did what he had to do to get back into the sport. He was facing a lifetime ban. He still apparently named people.

Wonder did Millar name his supplier?

Yes, Massimiliano Lelli.
 
May 26, 2010
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sniper said:
Jaksche and Landis are clear cases IMO. Both implied a lot of people (Jaksche not only implied Riis, but explicitly also Contador and, if that's not enough, his suppliers) and both tried to get back into cycling.
Not a word from JV on their behalf, not even a supporting tweet.

He did recently take the effort to support Wiggo through twitter. Why?
JV himself doesn't honestly believe Wiggo is clean
, I reckon.
I assume his interest in supporting Wiggo is to support his own mantra that cycling is really getting cleaner.

Why would he believe Wiggins is clean? He got 4th in the TdF in 2009 just behind Contador, Schleck and Armstrong!

You know if Wiggins was clean, he would be suggesting in a some way that he also won the 2009 TdF.

Remember the angry Wiggins in 2007 and his anti doping rant? Well surely he wants the 2009 win then!

Nah JV is a player in pro cycling and we all know what pro cycling involves.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
Your the one who who is quibbling - i asked how many riders are there?

Manzano & Landis are the only 2 that come to mind.


Great - whats their name.


It is the whole reason of this discussion - Garmin or bad for not hiring people who "told all", then of course when they do, they are bad because they didn't hire every single rider that confessed to get a reduction.
Of course if they do that then Garmin are evil for not giving fresh faced non doping teens the chance to ride.

No. You said that there haven't been anyone, because your royal highness can't recall them. I named the riders. You didn't think that their confessions were good enough as they didn't name "many people".

Of course Dekker's level of confession makes the grade, while the people I mentioned don't qualify. By your "definition" Dekker also doesn't qualify.

Sella's supplier is known. You can google. Use it.

And your last paragraph is such a horrible piece of demagoguery. Let's wrap it up in one neat question, why of all dopers was Dekker approached for a job at Garmin on condition of cooperating with WADA while people in the past who have cooperated have not been, at least not to my knowledge?

This is the whole reason of this discussion.
 
May 26, 2010
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roundabout said:
why of all dopers was Dekker approached for a job at Garmin on condition of cooperating with WADA while people in the past who have cooperated have not been, at least not to my knowledge?

Apologies for the snip.

I would love to know why Dekker was hired, because he has been crap all season and he was supposed to have big numbers at pre-season training!!!!!!!
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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roundabout said:
No. You said that there haven't been anyone, because your royal highness can't recall them. I named the riders. You didn't think that their confessions were good enough as they didn't name "many people".

Of course Dekker's level of confession makes the grade, while the people I mentioned don't qualify. By your "definition" Dekker also doesn't qualify.
And none of the names fit "telling all" - and I include Dekker in that.

Landis is about the only recent person who has gone out and named names.

roundabout said:
Sella's supplier is known. You can google. Use it.
I wasn't going to bother, but I did actually try.
If I have to around and search all day well it wasn't the best "tell-all"

roundabout said:
And your last paragraph is such a horrible piece of demagoguery. Let's wrap it up in one neat question, why of all dopers was Dekker approached for a job at Garmin on condition of cooperating with WADA while people in the past who have cooperated have not been, at least not to my knowledge?

This is the whole reason of this discussion.
Dekker, unlike many of the riders mentioned lately actually appears to have a solid natural talent.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
I wasn't going to bother, but I did actually try.
If I have to around and search all day well it wasn't the best "tell-all"
Seriously?
Maybe it wasn't widely reported because Sella is small fish and the media doesn't care about some no name Italian dealer, but that doesn't take anything away from Sella himself.

Furthermore, it took me about 5 seconds to find it, and when I saw the name I remembered it's been mentioned here before.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
And none of the names fit "telling all" - and I include Dekker in that.

Landis is about the only recent person who has gone out and named names.

why are you ignoring Jaksche?
Jaksche did a couple of tell-alls on german tv and media.
he named Contador, he named Riis, he named his supplier (though the supplier was obviously already widely known).
In addition, and for what it's worth, Jaskche to me seems one of the more likeable (ex)members of the peloton. And he was craving to return to cycling.
Natural talent? I'd say plenty as well.
JV? nowhere to be seen.
 
Really, typing Emanuele Sella supplier into google means you need to search all day?

Of all the ways to play down his cooperation, this is one of the least creative and tells a lot more about you than his confession.

And as for Dekker, you have zero means of knowing whether or not he was more talented than say Jaksche.

And it's quite easy to to use the "talent" argument to blackball people who might have said too much in public.
 

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