JV talks, sort of

[JV1973]

JV, you are rating Porte and Rogers too highly

That's a matter of opinion, an opinion which I don't share with you. In a matter of payroll, I can tell you that I doubt I have anyone that gets paid what either of these boys do.

 

[roundabout]

Payroll is not the same as actual quality.

 

[JV1973]

JV.

Care to comment on Pat and Hein and their case against Kimmage?

And- perhaps one to mull over.
Cycling is going through some turbulent times (again) and it has the potential for significant changes - where would you like to see the sport be, when or if this clears?

Sure. but then I have to go. cross country practice for my kid.

I don't agree with suing Kimmage. I am a friend of Paul's and feel his is being unfairly singled out. I also do not agree with resources that I provide the UCI (my license fee) being used to pursue such legal actions.

In addition, bringing a suit like this sends the wrong message. Paul, while sometimes a bit emotional, is a passionate fan of the sport and loves it. His criticisms come from a place of trying to help things get better, not hurt the sport.

JV

 

[hrotha]

I see your point. And many a jealous DS would agree with you, off the record. However, I also see Sky as having a team that had a lot of momentum, from a psychological standpoint, this year. You would be amazed at how much further you can push yourself when riding on the front, as opposed to sitting 30 guys back, given the same physical condition. It's just a rule of thumb in cycling, better to cause yourself pain than have others cause it for you.

Now, of course, I can see you rolling your eyes thinking about the TdF's of the early 2000's and how similar this year's appeared. So, as opposed to a psychological intangible, let me give you something more real:

Sky bought a whole crew of guys that would be outright leaders on any other team to be support riders. I do not see that as the case with USPS, with the exception of Heras. Remember Aczevedo finishing 5th at the Tour de France? Who? Yeah, exactly. While the comparison is visually compelling, the reality is not. I still think it;s unfair what Sky has done, but from the payroll perspective, not the doping one.

I have no doubt that Sky pays handsomely, what with buying Wiggins, signing Cavendish, and no doubt throwing lots of money at the likes of EBH, Urán, Flecha, Thomas or pretty much everyone. But how much of an impact does that really have on their Tour squad?

Froome is mighty expensive now, but he wasn't at the start of last year's Vuelta, when he was a nobody and couldn't hold a candle to José Azevedo (who, among other things, was 5th at the 2001 Giro and 6th at the 2002 Tour before joining the blue train).

Rogers was widely deemed to be a has-been as far as GTs were concerned.

Porte came from a ridiculously bad year at Saxo, where he couldn't climb at all (was still very goot at the ITTs though). He was a 2nd year pro with some interesting results, but hardly a superstar.

No, I don't think they bought themselves an all-star team with their filthy money. They signed some good riders (probably giving them very high wages) and they massively improved while at Sky.

You know what raises more flags for me? To see guys like EBH, Löfkvist, Appollonio, Urán or Henao ride pretty much at their level (or below it, in the case of Löfkvist). No marginal gains for them? No high-tech bus with mood lights? No warm-downs? I'm sure they get paid handsomely, as I said. It's all about the inner circles, as you said yourself.

 

[roundabout]

JV,

When exactly did you make/consider making an offer to Froome last year and how big was it?

Pre-Manzaneda stage of the Vuelta? After the TT of the Vuelta? Or before?

 

[the asian]

JV, Non doping question if you don't mind.

Currently riders who transfer to teams carry their full World Tour points to their new team .
This has led to some riders who indicate they are are going to transfer next season being left out of WT races. (I do remember Hushovd with your Team, and presently Fuglsang's situation with Astana).
I don't blame the Teams though, I understand their point.

This had led to many cash rich teams buying riders with WT points and leaving many smaller budgeted teams with a disadvantage.
Euskatel are going to change their long standing policy of not recruiting Basque Riders due to this fact.

I aslo understand that under the current system, it would make it easier for new teams to be formed.


Do you think the current system is fair? or are there any acceptable changes which can be made (maybe transferring 50% of points with the rider and leaving 50% with the old team)

 

[python]

Now, about all of that extra required testing when clean teams rule the Giro? Crickets.

Several jv skeptics (benotti69, msj and others) have raised uncomfortable but genuine questions that jv has honoured with a response.

I hope you don't mind the directness because you seem to have encouraged it for other posters and have practiced it yourself, but your question is beyond stupid.

The reason being is simple...btw, this no personal judgements on jv's position...one can advocate an idea and the measures to enhance the idea simultaneously. It is twisted, but coming from you with your baggage it is really much simpler - a flame - to expect a controversy.


To repeat your question was stupid.

 

[skidmark]

Purple Rain. Little Red Corvette, if you'll let me.

Yesssss, I knew he was a man of taste, Libertine (although your argument has led me to consider a revisit of Sign O The Times)...

 

[the big ring]

Please note: I did not say relative power (P:W), I said absolute power. For the sake of precision, let's talk absolute FTP: the maximum power he can sustain for 1 hour. Not in W/kg, but in W.

Will Thomas' absolute FTP (W) remain static or increase when he loses 4kg from his current (team website claimed) 70kg?

in case you missed it.

 

[the big ring]

if these are trolling questions you alluded to let me know and i will desist.

A few more questions:

1. How did it come about that CaptainBag had an email from you with Ryder's blood values? Did he ask you for them, or did you volunteer them? If you volunteered them, why through CaptainBag and not just release them as you did with Brad's values?
2. Do you know the real identity of CaptainBag?

You have released the blood values for 2 riders in 3 races: Brad 2009 Giro and Tour, Ryder 2012 Giro.
3. Why are you releasing the values of only your best results? Do ABP values prove cleanliness?
4. Have you considered releasing the blood values of a domestique from the same races - as a baseline, if you like and if not, why not? You would not even have to provide their name, just their numbers.
5. If there was, as you suggest, "systemic high readings at the Giro", you could release up to 8 other riders' values - from your team alone. You don't have to prove anything to me or anyone else, but are you prepared to do this to show us the veracity of your claim? Again - no names need even be shown, just the values. Is it difficult to get a rider's values?
6. As pointed out previously, there is a consistent pattern of a bump in the 3rd week of all 3 datasets you have released. Is this something we would see in all passports, or only riders who perform top 5 in a GT?

 

[AlpineClimbr]

You have done little to placate those who doubt the sport is cleaner.

Expecting everyone online to stroke you to your fantasies is a bit much, don't you think?

Sad.

True.

 

[hrotha]

Does Slipstream still do their own internal testing? I vaguely remember reading something about that, but I'm not sure at all so I figured I'd ask.

 

[Berzin]

I was watching the David Millar interview someone posted a link to from a Spanish channel, and I have a new found respect for Jonathan Vaughters.

Not only for the sideburns (which are impeccable and quite pimp) and the natty attire (when is he going to host Masterpiece Theatre?) but for the manner in which he was slinging the español.

I forgot he rode in Spain when he first got to Europe, and apparently he picked up the language quite nicely.

Asi es que se hace, hermano!!!

 

[Cloxxki]

I was watching the David Millar interview someone psoted a link to from a Spanish channel, and I have a new found respect for Jonathan Vaughters.

Not only for the sideburns (which are impeccable and quite pimp) and the natty attire (when is going to host Masterpiece Theatre?) but for the manner in which he was slinging the español.

I forgot he rode in Spain when he first got to Europe, and apparently he picked up the language very nicely.

Asi es que se hace, hermano!!!

Off-topic, I thought Spanish was the second language of the USA? JV can and does do better than to score brownie point with language skills. Making us understand his stance with regards to doping, really understand, even in English would be a nice step in communication. That said, I do give him huge props for taken "us" on. There are questions, he's involved in answering, and we're tough to please. We also have reason to, and JV may be just warming up as to why we are like that. The darkness on the inside may blind the light from the outside, if that makes any sense at all. Darn South African wine...

 

[ToreBear]

I have no doubt that Sky pays handsomely, what with buying Wiggins, signing Cavendish, and no doubt throwing lots of money at the likes of EBH, Urán, Flecha, Thomas or pretty much everyone. But how much of an impact does that really have on their Tour squad?

Froome is mighty expensive now, but he wasn't at the start of last year's Vuelta, when he was a nobody and couldn't hold a candle to José Azevedo (who, among other things, was 5th at the 2001 Giro and 6th at the 2002 Tour before joining the blue train).

Rogers was widely deemed to be a has-been as far as GTs were concerned.

Porte came from a ridiculously bad year at Saxo, where he couldn't climb at all (was still very goot at the ITTs though). He was a 2nd year pro with some interesting results, but hardly a superstar.

No, I don't think they bought themselves an all-star team with their filthy money. They signed some good riders (probably giving them very high wages) and they massively improved while at Sky.

You know what raises more flags for me? To see guys like EBH, Löfkvist, Appollonio, Urán or Henao ride pretty much at their level (or below it, in the case of Löfkvist). No marginal gains for them? No high-tech bus with mood lights? No warm-downs? I'm sure they get paid handsomely, as I said. It's all about the inner circles, as you said yourself.

I have the impression that we did'nt see the same TdF. Did you see Wiggins, Froome, Porte and Rogers ride up all the mountains together? I did'nt.

I saw the sky train shedding riders in a rather predictable way. Sometimes one guy had a bad day and the others covered for him, a few times Froome and Wiggins were left a little too exposed by the train shedding their domestiques a bit too quickly. But Froome and Wiggins handled it even though it looked hairy a few times.

What sky did was camoflage their weaknesses and use each individual riders strength for the benefit of the team. I think a lot of people have failed to see that and instead have fixated on what the sky train looked like on the early portion of the climbs.

As for an inner circle. With the amount of good riders sky have, they could have replaced someone out of form with someone in form. Lets say Porte broke a leg before the tour. They could have brought in Uran and probably be only slightly weaker.

 

[JV1973]

in case you missed it.

I thought I answered. I said probably. Meaning, yes, I imagine he will maintain his gross (not relative) 1 hour power, if he is able to lose 4kgs. That's the reason i went into explaining the upper body mass stuff etc.

 

[the big ring]

I thought I answered. I said probably. Meaning, yes, I imagine he will maintain his gross (not relative) 1 hour power, if he is able to lose 4kgs. That's the reason i went into explaining the upper body mass stuff etc.

Thanks. I wanted to ensure I was not misunderstanding.

 

[JV1973]

1. How did it come about that CaptainBag had an email from you with Ryder's blood values? Did he ask you for them, or did you volunteer them? If you volunteered them, why through CaptainBag and not just release them as you did with Brad's values? Nobody else wanted them.

2. Do you know the real identity of CaptainBag? Nope

You have released the blood values for 2 riders in 3 races: Brad 2009 Giro and Tour, Ryder 2012 Giro. 4 riders, 4 races: VDV, Millar, Wiggins, Hesjay

3. Why are you releasing the values of only your best results? Do ABP values prove cleanliness? Nobody seems too interested in other values. Also, if I'm trying to prove you can win GT clean, it isn't so interesting to see the results from the guy who got 123rd.

4. Have you considered releasing the blood values of a domestique from the same races - as a baseline, if you like and if not, why not? You would not even have to provide their name, just their numbers. Sure. But not via the clinic.

5. If there was, as you suggest, "systemic high readings at the Giro", you could release up to 8 other riders' values - from your team alone. You don't have to prove anything to me or anyone else, but are you prepared to do this to show us the veracity of your claim? Again - no names need even be shown, just the values. Is it difficult to get a rider's values? Sure, but it's really not something I think i need to prove. Ryder's hct was 46% at the start of the Giro. Probably without slight lab error it would have been 45%. I don't really see this as terribly significant, unless it was part of an overall profile that was consistently elevated, which it is not. I was just giving you guys background. But let's say i was lying...OK...it's a 46% hct. That's still not very remarkable.

6. As pointed out previously, there is a consistent pattern of a bump in the 3rd week of all 3 datasets you have released. Is this something we would see in all passports, or only riders who perform top 5 in a GT?

Bump in third week? I don't see that. I see on stage 14 Ryder's hct went from 43.4 to 43.8. As I linked earlier, that could be because his head was tilted slightly differently or he had a glass of water. Please see my link to plasma shifts. If you see a hct bump with a corresponding drop in retics and increase in off-score, then look more carefully, but that's not the case here. You guys haven't seen so many blood bag profiles. They are way more interesting.

please read my link re plasma shifts .

 

[luckyboy]

Man, I think I got stupider catching up with this thread, having to read sniper's posts.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I have the impression that we did'nt see the same TdF. Did you see Wiggins, Froome, Porte and Rogers ride up all the mountains together? I did'nt.

I saw the sky train shedding riders in a rather predictable way. Sometimes one guy had a bad day and the others covered for him, a few times Froome and Wiggins were left a little too exposed by the train shedding their domestiques a bit too quickly. But Froome and Wiggins handled it even though it looked hairy a few times.

What sky did was camoflage their weaknesses and use each individual riders strength for the benefit of the team. I think a lot of people have failed to see that and instead have fixated on what the sky train looked like on the early portion of the climbs.

As for an inner circle. With the amount of good riders sky have, they could have replaced someone out of form with someone in form. Lets say Porte broke a leg before the tour. They could have brought in Uran and probably be only slightly weaker.

If this is going to be the way the TdF is raced from now on (using the 'dark era' of His Douchiness as a reference), then you're absolutely right.

The did a brilliant job using their doms as fodder.

And yet they came back.

Day after day.

And dropped everyone else...

PS: What's up with the never-seen-before run of the early stage races all the way to the TdF?

 

[hiero2]

AFAIK he was always clean.

But, if there is any dispute whatsoever, that was his cleanest moment.

Dave.

I will see if I can find that radio interview or a transcript. If I remember correctly, the interviewer asked him if he ever doped. The reply was "let's not discuss that". It was a friendly interview, but not softball. The interviewer responded eventually with a comment to the effect - "if you tell me we don't want to discuss that, you are admitting doping, yes?" and the response is "Let's not discuss that".

The words alone do not convey the full impact.

When I can find it, I'll post a link. Don't hold your breath, though.

 

[ToreBear]

If this is going to be the way the TdF is raced from now on (using the 'dark era' of His Douchiness as a reference), then you're absolutely right.

The did a brilliant job using their doms as fodder.

And yet they came back.

Day after day.

And dropped everyone else...

Someone came back the next day, while someone else did'nt, which the others had to cover for.

 

[JV1973]

I want to clarify something real quickly:

I don't really give a rat's **** about SKY. I don't know what goes on there and I don't really care. And I'm really sick of defending them.

When you guys ask me about them, I give my honest appraisal, but I really have no skin in the game. If they are doping, I hope they get caught. Make my life easier.

 

[Parker]

PS: What's up with the never-seen-before run of the early stage races all the way to the TdF?

It's not a 'never-seen-before' run. Evans did more or less the same last year. 1st at TA, 1st at Romandie, 2nd at Dauphine, 1st at Tour (also 7th at Catalunya).

People who say Wiggins had some sort of unprecedented run of form must have the attention span of a housefly.

(If you want a real run of form, look at some of the top guys in the 80s, they were competitive in everything)

 

[ToreBear]

I want to clarify something real quickly:

I don't really give a rat's **** about SKY. I don't know what goes on there and I don't really care. And I'm really sick of defending them.

When you guys ask me about them, I give my honest appraisal, but I really have no skin in the game. If they are doping, I hope they get caught. Make my life easier.

You don't have to defend them, and shouldn't feel obligated to defend them either. As far as I can see you have previosly stated your opinon, and that should be enough.