JV talks, sort of

[hrotha]

The big concern is that if you put together smaller teams with rapidly vanishing races what you get is a lot of unemployed riders (as just having more teams per race increases the costs for the organizers exponentially). I'd love to see 5 or 6-man teams in races, but this is a potential problem I've rarely seen mentioned.

 

[Netserk]

The big concern is that if you put together smaller teams with rapidly vanishing races what you get is a lot of unemployed riders (as just having more teams per race increases the costs for the organizers exponentially). I'd love to see 5 or 6-man teams in races, but this is a potential problem I've rarely seen mentioned.

It'd be solved if teams participated in more races.

But yeah, I think currently it's more important to save/have more races than teams.

 

[Granville57]

And speaking of TT bikes...

How is Dan Martin doing?


Just to be clear, it is not my intention to make light of any rider receiving injuries, as there a countless examples of horrible accidents taking place on conventional road bikes, but when I saw Dan's most unfortunate crash in the Giro, it seemed to be another example of TT bikes being unnecessarily dangerous to the riders themselves.

Of course such a crash could have still taken place on a road bike, but would it have, in that particular scenario? I'd be willing to bet odds against it.

 

[Granville57]

Daaaaamn...

And here I was worried about my "intentions."

TTT crashes make great TV.

OUCH!

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Every time JV comes along to these board we are typically dealing with some sort of agenda.

damage control
protection of a member of his team
diversion
etc.

long standing score:

Slipstream fans 3 - 0 Sky fans

More fun too.

Carry one

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Just to clarify something: I presented you guys an objective manner of thinking and options regards to Froome's climbing speed. There was no skepticism implied beyond the understanding of the numbers and their meaning. And, I'm sorry to say, but if you want my opinion on Froome, not an objective map, but a subjective personal opinion? I think he's clean.

does that mean I'd be shocked if I was wrong? No. Does that mean I'm absolutely convince I'm right? Nope.

But my opinion? My opinion is he's clean. I think he's got some crazy adaptive physiology. And I wish I had identified that more quickly.

And no, that is not financially driven. Cycling is not a game of "rising tides raise all boats". My financial situation is cycling is quite independent of Sky's or Froome's. If that team went down in flames, would it hurt sponsorship? Probably, short term, but then there'd be one less team to deal with on the sponsorship market(we pitched a deal to 21st Century Fox a while back, they loved it.....ouch). Cycling is cannibalistic and parasitic on the business level (something that needs to change, desperately)...It's hardly a "share the wealth" environment...

Anyhow, throw tomatoes and such if you must. It's just my opinion.

JV

Oh, Jonathan. Clean? C'mon. We've both been around the sport long enough. You know the details and they're not explicable sans doping. By the way, I've asked you a question here and in private via email. I'm curious how you'd answer.

John Swanson

 

[Granville57]

Every time JV comes along to these board we are typically dealing with some sort of agenda.

protection of a member of his team

If that were the case, I'd say he did a pretty bad job of it a couple of years ago.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vaughters-confirms-past-doping-by-danielson-others-at-garmin
Vaughters confirms past doping by Danielson, others at Garmin

Writing openly in the Cyclingnews forum, Vaughters further said...

"So, Tommy D... Here's a guy that has used o2 vector doping, and with some success...

Twitter to save the day...

Anyone who thinks I'm a slick talking PR man, guess I, idiotically, proved you wrong. I'm just a dumb ass. Apologies.
https://twitter.com/Vaughters/status/243469475544985600

 

[blackcat]

It'd be solved if teams participated in more races.

But yeah, I think currently it's more important to save/have more races than teams.

leeds
san sebastian
midi libre
setmana catalana
peace race
baby giro / bio giro

 

[purcell]

Or it's a "good reason" for him to avoid the place". Don't think that kind of language is helping, and I for one appreciate that JV comes on here.

I think the barrage of questions shows folks are quite interested in what he has to say. I hope it can be kept respectful and pleasant this time.

I would say there are some, possibly a majority, who are interested in what JV has to say, are willing to listen and appreciate the effort.

There is a minority, a vocal and abusive minority, who frankly seem not to care one whit what JV has to say. They treat his coming here as their right, and further their right to heap as much abuse on home as they choose.

For some reason they seem to expect him to stay and take it.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Oh, Jonathan. Clean? C'mon. We've both been around the sport long enough. You know the details and they're not explicable sans doping. By the way, I've asked you a question here and in private via email. I'm curious how you'd answer.

John Swanson

For the record, JV did give an answer via email before I wrote this, but I didn't see it.

John Swanson

 

[blackcat]

TTT crashes make great TV.

Ok, I gotta run.

unless you are CvdV.

his cards were marked when Postal went down like a 2 dollar hooker or Devine Brown in Hugh Grants hybrid

 

[blackcat]

JV,

I'm not sure if you've read any or all of Juliet Macur's most recent book, but I'm wondering about Allen Lim's assessment of Floyd's mental health, as presented on those pages.

I can't seem to shake the notion that Allen may have been overreacting to some of Floyd's behavior, because, I dunno, maybe Lim just hadn't been around too many extreme personalities up that point in his life? Purely conjecture on my part, of course.

But beyond the back-and-forth about how much money Lim did or did not receive, and the extent that Lim may or may not have been a part of Floyd's doping, do you think he painted an accurate picture of Floyd?

Thanks

maybe lim is just a lying sack o' $hit carnt. thought about that? folks have pointed out that lim has a very malleable version of the truth.

 

[Granville57]

Of course I've thought about that.

Surely you know what one of my all-time favorite video clips is, no?

http://www.bicycling.com/video/atoc-allen-lim-addresses-allegations#/video/all

 

[DirtyWorks]

So, Floyd was, it would seem, "officially" black balled by the UCI and ASO.

I have suspected as much. It's nice to see an explanation for some of those "dark forces." Somebody, somewhere at the UCI has their ear very close to the goings-on at the team level. This also confirms some kind of UCI popularity contest for riders.

I'd be very interested to know how the UCI encourages/discourages hiring. Letters? Emails? Calls? How many people assigned to this?

At this point, Lim's claims are not reliable.

 

[Granville57]

[Forum edits got scrambled in the mix here. This is the original...]

Maybe it's due to the excitement of racing to see who can insult JV more times then the next guy, but I'm not sure why one of the more interesting revelations in this thread has gone unnoticed.

First, some background on the topic:

Any comment on why you did not hire Landis?

Floyd? I told Floyd he could live at my house, borrow money, whatever, but I was not hiring him. Why? Was he training seriously? Did he really want to train seriously again? I saw those as bigger problems. Here was a massive political liability that wasn't really trying very hard (at the time)... Pragmatism said "don't do it"

I really like Floyd. We have remained friends through a lot. But I still wouldn't go back in time and change my decision. He needed to move on in his life. And he has.

Now to the more recent observation:

You talk of second chances, you didn't give floyd one.

I didn't give Floyd a second chance. And I stand by that choice. I really like Floyd and will always be around to support him. But not as a bike racer.

Why did you not give him a second chance?

Because I didn't believe that a rider at Floyd's age could come back after two very difficult years out of the sport and hip replacement surgery.
Plus, I was encouraged by both UCI and ASO to not consider it. It took me a little while longer to find the balls to not care about what these guys had to say.

So, Floyd was, it would seem, "officially" black balled by the UCI and ASO.

Indeed, I find that interesting, to say the very least. Very interesting.

And some people still wonder why Floyd chose the nuclear option in the end?

 

[blackcat]

electra complex you reckon? sweet

sabina spielrein > jung

 

[blackcat]

I always enjoy the keyboard warriors who don't run a team, manage a team, or really have a full idea of the responsibility of owning a team and what that involves.

But continue on fellas...enventually JV won't come on here anymore and you can continue to talk yourselves in circles (not that you don't already as the past several pages have shown) and end up completely nowhere.

JV has made a few suggestions, which of course, nobody will ever take him up on. One is, go get involved in your local cycling, not just racing, but the other aspects that include the managing/doping controls etc.

But, like many if this World, people complain, like politics, yet never go out and do anything about it, and keep voting the same jackasses into the job. But you continually rail JV over and over with completely pointless/ill-conceived and often off target questions and complaints.

I don't really understand why a few of you can't clearly quote a question in a simple sentence or two, as requested by JV, to answer.

I won't hunt through and search for obscure and lengthy posts trying to determine what is an actual question, or another pointless rant, and I'm sure he doesn't have time to do it either.

Here, let's quote some 4 paragraph rant that is all over the place, and ask him to answer it...meh, not happening.

Seems some of you are so excited to garner JV's attention, that it fuels your senselessness. Kind of like young school girls who's father didn't give them attention and never had a role model show them has a woman should be treated. Then, when any guy comes along and gives you attention, you lose your minds. Then become strippers of course.

The thread is becoming quite useless at this point, even when JV is trying to accommodate people. I don't see Brailsford or the likes on here trying to engage and talk about these issues.

electra complex you reckon? sweet

sabina spielrein > jung

 

[blackcat]

[Forum edits got scrambled in the mix here. This is the original...]

Maybe it's due to the excitement of racing to see who can insult JV more times then the next guy, but I'm not sure why one of the more interesting revelations in this thread has gone unnoticed.

First, some background on the topic:




Now to the more recent observation:







So, Floyd was, it would seem, "officially" black balled by the UCI and ASO.

Indeed, I find that interesting, to say the very least. Very interesting.

And some people still wonder why Floyd chose the nuclear option in the end?

thanks for the forensic G-vle

that is why i have said repeatedly, a public person is held rightly or wrongly, to a different level of truth, cos if they engage in spin and manipulation and narrative, they do not have a factual basis to draw on, so they can unintentionally contradict themselves in the future.

 

[Tinman]

Ok, he was asking me how it was possible Froome rode at 6.9w/kg up Madone.

There are three possibilities:

1. Motor on his bike.

2. Serious o2 vector doping.

3. 92vo2 max utilizing 92% of which at MSS, and an efficiency of around 85w/liter of o2. All of which, on their own, are plausible. Put together? I've never seen it in an athlete, however, I refuse to discount that it is possible. All the components are possible individually, so there's no absolute reason it's impossible.


Which one is the right answer? I don't know. Chris Froome does.



JV

So essentially JV comes out and questions Froome's clean-liness.

On the day where l'Equipe publishes that Froome got a UCI sponsored oral prednisone AUT for a flu.

And the UCI president's son is employed by team Sky.

Why did Froome need oral prednisone? For his cold? Or for the Tour of Romandy ratings? Or for a Team Sky win and associated publicity? Or because it's "good for cycling" according to Zorzoli/Cookson?

Reminds me of the phone message JV got from Verbruggen on China.

Better watch out JV, for the Ire of Brian may be set upon you.

 

[blackcat]

Of course I've thought about that.

Surely you know what one of my all-time favorite video clips is, no?

http://www.bicycling.com/video/atoc-allen-lim-addresses-allegations#/video/all

wow,

just wow


emperors clothes

lim is just a boffin to run the numbers. he'd be a sh!tty spinmeister, cos he looks like he is more full of sh!t than he even is. can someone pass him a suppository yesterday

 

[blackcat]

You're not asking the right question. The question you should ask is: "as a fan, what do I want professional cycling to be like?"

Answer that for me, and it's already one step closer to a good strategy than is currently devised.

Because in the end, if we have a sport that more and more fans love, the success follows. So, design the sport based on that one simple fact.

JV

more and more for growths sake, is not a strategy. and it will just cannibalize a finite market for a sport patron, within that entertainment wider market. And if you wish to appeal to everyone, you have not defined the market, you paradoxically appeal to no one.

and as Race Radio has attested to with bike sales, even tho the mid-aged-crisis demographic did pick up bikes, Armstrong never managed to bring the sport mainstream off the continent to the anglophones.

there exists an inherent tension between a cycling culture and the continent, and one outside continental europe. can one marry the two? doubt it.

so armstrong and trek merge klein lemond fischer but trek just cannibalised the cycling consumer market into more Madones for your dads mid aged crisis. better than a porsche or a secretary i spose...

cycling needs to be authentic, and not the BS from the years of CSE and Stapleton and apotheosis of cancer jesus to sell us shwag or schwag.

i'd like to see more jean delatours with bros nazon, and brioche boulangerie and give fabrice mouth to mouth and a second chance.
heck did big mat auber, srry auber was the club was it not, and big mat the Home Depot? i'd like them back in, without FDJ, did not the manager have them for one season, and the australian jay seet instead of francs in madiots pocket

 

[Benotti69]

Most top riders have extreme personalities in one form or another. Floyd is no more or less so, he's just a little too intelligent(sees injustice and hypocrisy) and comes from a background that put a premium on morality, so he ends up being more tormented than most. My opinion.

There is no place for morals in business. There is no place for morals in sport that is run as a business.

This is why i do not believe any of the WT teams are clean. They dont have the problems that Floyd has and most of the riders lack intelligence, have no problem with injustice and hypocrisy, all the fabrics, including doping, of pro cycling.

It is funny that 'pro' cycling is run like a cheap circus, but then when so many in the sport lack intelligence what should we expect.......

 

[The Hitch]

. 92vo2 max utilizing 92% of which at MSS, and an efficiency of around 85w/liter of o2. All of which, on their own, are plausible. Put together? I've never seen it in an athlete, however, I refuse to discount that it is possible. All the components are possible individually, so there's no absolute reason it's impossible.

Just to clarify something: I presented you guys an objective manner of thinking and options regards to Froome's climbing speed. There was no skepticism implied beyond the understanding of the numbers and their meaning. And, I'm sorry to say, but if you want my opinion on Froome, not an objective map, but a subjective personal opinion? I think he's clean.

does that mean I'd be shocked if I was wrong? No. Does that mean I'm absolutely convince I'm right? Nope.

But my opinion? My opinion is he's clean. I think he's got some crazy adaptive physiology. And I wish I had identified that more quickly.

And no, that is not financially driven. Cycling is not a game of "rising tides raise all boats". My financial situation is cycling is quite independent of Sky's or Froome's. If that team went down in flames, would it hurt sponsorship? Probably, short term, but then there'd be one less team to deal with on the sponsorship market(we pitched a deal to 21st Century Fox a while back, they loved it.....ouch). Cycling is cannibalistic and parasitic on the business level (something that needs to change, desperately)...It's hardly a "share the wealth" environment...

Anyhow, throw tomatoes and such if you must. It's just my opinion.

JV

Didn't you say the exact same thing about Contador?

 

[martinvickers]

Didn't you say the exact same thing about Contador?

He may well have done, Hitch. But I don't think he's claiming clairvoyance, is he?

You know it's possible for hunches to be right PART of the time, and WRONG part of the time - that's why they are hunches, after all.

Is it not possible to take on board this is his view, with what that might mean about the peloton's view, or a pro's view, while simultaneously not agreeing with it - (and for the record, I tend to disagree with it)?

Or is the problem that JV's admitted lack of certainty on the Froome issue, undermines your right to your own certainty (genuine question, not snark)?

 

[the sceptic]

Didn't you say the exact same thing about Contador?

He also said this..

No, the situation.... for example, alps d huez in 2001 38 minute winning time. you plug in the figures to that you get a vo2max of 92-100(assuming fatigue, and sub max power and certain efficiencies), and power outputs of 6.3+ w/kg... very easy to call bull****. I wrote a whole article in 2001 cyclesport basically calling bull****, but no one quite understood the science back then, so my subtleties were lost. Actually, LeMond read it and got it, but that was about it.

Froome isn't there yet, Wiggo no where close. Froome, my guess will be sub 40 mins in the Tour, maybe even low 39... so, vo2max of 86-94 and 6.0 w/kg... more difficult to make a damning assessment there. Not saying it's clean or not clean, saying that I would not be willing to condemn it, without further proof.

That's all.

Sorry, man. I don't go with "I don't like what I saw!"... Im pretty much tied to the math. climbing speed and blood values. The rest is rhubarb.