JV talks, sort of

[blackcat]

There is no place for morals in business. There is no place for morals in sport that is run as a business.

This is why i do not believe any of the WT teams are clean. They dont have the problems that Floyd has and most of the riders lack intelligence, have no problem with injustice and hypocrisy, all the fabrics, including doping, of pro cycling.

It is funny that 'pro' cycling is run like a cheap circus, but then when so many in the sport lack intelligence what should we expect.......

how much r tickets to this circus?

 

[Benotti69]

how much r tickets to this circus?

Free! stand on the side of the road.......it's a travelling circus.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

Why, oh why, won't JV speak up about these fraudulent supper-mutants trouncing his riders?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Yea, connecting the dots turns out disastrous for him.

 

[Merckx index]

Interesting comments by JV on Froome, but some things he missed:

1) Porte was nearly as fast as Froome up Madone, so if Froome is an absolute, never-seen-before freak, with > 90 V02max, 90% lactate threshold, 23-24% efficiency, so is Porte. If the odds that Froome is are miniscule, what are the odds that both are?

2) This is why I posted earlier that his recorded time does not jibe with the wattage figure he claimed, unless he was timed from > 13 km from the top (or there was a ferocious headwind). But if he was, he not only beat the times of LA and other known dopers, but did it giving them in effect more than a 1 km head start. I continue to be amazed that these discrepancies get ignored after the defending TDF champion publicly reveals his time and wattage.

3) By “adaptive” physiology, I think JV is referring to the distinction—which I discussed earlier on the Ullrich thread, and still earlier on another thread discussing the book The Sports Gene—between inherent or genetic endowment to perform untrained, and the genetic endowment to improve upon training. It’s thought that an athlete can be very endowed in one respect, and not in the other, and JV provides himself as an example of someone endowed in the first respect but not the other.

If I understand JV correctly, he’s saying that Froome is exceptional in the second aspect. Thus his V02max was not initially that high naturally, but became very high after training. This is how he explains the fact that someone with the exceptional physiology suggested in point 1 could have a mediocre career for several years.

The problem with this view is that it doesn’t explain the suddenness of Froome’s transformation. He was mediocre right up to the 2011 Vuelta—shown in particularly clear detail by ScienceisCool’s analysis of his ITT’s before and after this date--at which point he suddenly became the best GT rider on the planet. Individuals with exceptional adaptive physiology simply don’t improve that much that fast. We have discussed here the other explanation for this, schistosomiasis, and I’m not going to reiterate all the flaws in using that as an explanation.

4) Beyond these problems, here is the question or set of questions I have for JV: If Froome were one of your riders, would you (unlike Sky):

a) Attempt to obtain his power data pre-Vuelta, so you could compare them with current data and get some idea of what occurred during the transformation?

b) measure his V02 max, lactate threshold and efficiency, so you could estimate for yourself what watts/kg value he might be capable of?

c) Publically reveal any of the information in a) and b)?

d) Address the question of why Froome continues to maintain that he has suffered from schisto off and on, and was treated for it for several times, when most doctors familiar with the disease, including two who posted here last summer, say that a single treatment almost always eliminates all the worms, and with minimal side effects? The eggs can be a continuing problem in some cases, but there is no treatment for them, at least, the treatment for worms does not affect them.

e) Address the question of how the disease could have affected Froome’s performance, yet not affected his blood passport (according to Vayer, I think it was, who was allowed to examine it)? The worms themselves do not significantly reduce the red blood cell population, but antigens released from the eggs can inactivate hemoglobin, resulting in a decrease in hemoglobin/hematocrit that ought to be picked up by the passport if the disease is serious enough to affect performance. There are also problems with iron metabolism, which would also be expected to affect the passport to the extent that they affect performance.

With respect to the last two points, please understand I'm not expecting you, JV, to know everything about this disease, but am only asking if you would be more transparent, and more consistent, than Sky in addressing these issues.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

With respect to the last two points, please understand I'm not expecting you, JV, to know everything about this disease, but am only asking if you would be more transparent, and more consistent, than Sky in addressing these issues.

Is there a precedent for JV's transparency we can rely on wrt this question?

 

[jens_attacks]

guys i really think you shouldn't take madone's time as real. i don't
i hype froomey and other riders to the moon but yeah i don't believe he climbed it in that time.

 

[red_flanders]

guys i really think you shouldn't take madone's time as real. i don't
i hype froomey and other riders to the moon but yeah i don't believe he climbed it in that time.

It's certainly supported by no facts. Hard time understanding why Froome would advertise such a time whether he did it or not. All very odd.

He can't be that dumb. Right?

 

[jens_attacks]

he and michelle love trolling. no idea why but they really do, some people are like that

 

[webbie146]

he and michelle love trolling. no idea why but they really do, some people are like that

Quote from Ferrari: "Sky's : they are fast , but I am not sure the start was the same for everybody."

So yea you are right.

 

[sniper]

It took me a little while longer to find the balls to not care about what these guys had to say.
JV

haven't see anything to suggest you found them.

 

[armchairclimber]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[sniper]

from the article linked by peloton
http://ciclismo2005.com/2014/02/cambiar-un-nombre-para-no-cambiar-nada/
the author not buying that weltz is no longer a drug courrier.

Johnny Weltz, el danés ex-ONCE que inició la cuadra de Girona al instalar un hotelito para ciclistas a finales de los noventa, reconoce parcialmente las acusaciones de Rasmussen: era un camello de EPO cuando estaba de director en el CSC entre 2001 y 2002. Ahora no debe serlo, aunque sigue en Girona y tiene idéntico puesto en el Garmin de Vaughters.

 

[Race Radio]

2) This is why I posted earlier that his recorded time does not jibe with the wattage figure he claimed.

Good post, however this point may not be accurate. I think you used VAM to calculate w/kg, not a super accurate method. IIRC Armstrong said he did 495 watts when he set the previous record.

What does not make sense is what an outlier the Froome and Porte times are compared to all of their other performances. 30:09 is Pantani level stuff. While Froome has had some very questionable performances this is on another level.

As Jens and Flanders have pointed out, it is not supported by facts.

 

[D-Queued]

... crazy adaptive physiology...

Anyhow, throw tomatoes and such if you must. It's just my opinion.

JV

Okay, while normally highly supportive of you, I'll toss a tomato.

As a longtime believer in such notions as gravity, physics, conservation of energy, and diminishing returns, this is my new favorite code expression.

Taking the word right off the page, this is just crazy.

Dave.

 

[The Hitch]

he and michelle love trolling. no idea why but they really do, some people are like that

I don't understand this obsession with making some of these troubled individuals who clearly get easily distressed, appear as if they are in control and really just acting according to some bizzare relatively pointless evil scheme like movie villains.

I'm thinking Wiggins Froome and Cound here. All 3 more often than not end up hurting themselves more than their doubters. Yet every time they do something stupid you and a few others glorify it as trolling the clinic. Froome has eliminated Wiggins from the last 2 tdfs causing him clear distress, and needlessly insulted him and a bunch of others in his book.Cound just betrayed one of her friends with an appaling insulting reaction, that was if nothing else, consistent with her overall behavior simply because that person posted a link. Wiggins has off the cuff insulted and disrespected a number of people who's respect and friendship he may need long after he is no longer relevant in cycling.

These are actions that have significant ramifications for them and make no sense as a strategy to temporarily confuse a bunch of people on the internet.

Is froome lying about his Madone time. It's certainly possible. But if he is it's not because he wanted to enjoy that days breakfast reading the reactions on the clinic.

 

[armchairclimber]

I don't understand this obsession with making some of these troubled individuals who clearly get easily distressed, appear as if they are in control and really just acting according to some bizzare relatively pointless evil scheme like movie villains.

I'm thinking Wiggins Froome and Cound here. All 3 more often than not end up hurting themselves more than their doubters. Yet every time they do something stupid you and a few others glorify it as trolling the clinic. Froome has eliminated Wiggins from the last 2 tdfs causing him clear distress, and needlessly insulted him and a bunch of others in his book.Cound just betrayed one of her friends with an appaling insulting reaction, that was if nothing else, consistent with her overall behavior simply because that person posted a link. Wiggins has off the cuff insulted and disrespected a number of people who's respect and friendship he may need long after he is no longer relevant in cycling.

These are actions that have significant ramifications for them and make no sense as a strategy to temporarily confuse a bunch of people on the internet.

Is froome lying about his Madone time. It's certainly possible. But if he is it's not because he wanted to enjoy that days breakfast reading the reactions on the clinic.

Good post.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Good post.

ditto


10chars

 

[zigmeister]

electra complex you reckon? sweet

sabina spielrein > jung

yawn...snort

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Just to clarify something: I presented you guys an objective manner of thinking and options regards to Froome's climbing speed. There was no skepticism implied beyond the understanding of the numbers and their meaning. And, I'm sorry to say, but if you want my opinion on Froome, not an objective map, but a subjective personal opinion? I think he's clean.

does that mean I'd be shocked if I was wrong? No. Does that mean I'm absolutely convince I'm right? Nope.

But my opinion? My opinion is he's clean. I think he's got some crazy adaptive physiology. And I wish I had identified that more quickly.

...

JV

I'd like to add a sport-specific word to your new terminology, so it becomes

crazy rider-adaptive physiology

and then acronymise it to CRAP.

If that's ok with you?

 

[Beech Mtn]

adaptive physiology
super responder?
adapting to clean training, or to excessive, intense training allowed by doping?
adapting to the doping substances themselves?

and whatever it will be called when gene doping techniques are used?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

But my opinion? My opinion is he's clean. I think he's got some crazy adaptive physiology. And I wish I had identified that more quickly.

JV

What is he adapting too, then? What interventions could have taken place in the months prior to the Vuelta 2011 that results in his huge adaptations?

I understand what you mean; there are different manifestations of talent, and some have an ability to improve and improve. What indicators would you look for, if you had the opportunity to take values, track, or interview a rider with his level of adaptive physiology?

 

[Benotti69]

What is he adapting too, then? What interventions could have taken place in the months prior to the Vuelta 2011 that results in his huge adaptations?

I understand what you mean; there are different manifestations of talent, and some have an ability to improve and improve. What indicators would you look for, if you had the opportunity to take values, track, or interview a rider with his level of adaptive physiology?

The test is how quick a rider can use an inhaler without the TV camera catching him.................

 

[sniper]

I'd like to add a sport-specific word to your new terminology, so it becomes

crazy rider-adaptive physiology

and then acronymise it to CRAP.

If that's ok with you?

lol.
you really gotta ask who's taking that CRAP seriously.

The test is how quick a rider can use an inhaler without the TV camera catching him.................

don't think he passed the test.
the first rider ever to be caught on camera sucking the life out of an inhaler.

 

[ChrisE]

Every time JV comes along to these board we are typically dealing with some sort of agenda.

damage control
protection of a member of his team
diversion
etc.

Or, gotta spin the clean card when one of his guys beats Froome and AC in the DL.