JV talks, sort of

[Willy_Voet]

The other managers and DSs should be called out. What have they done?

JV's an easy target because he's actually here. He actually answers questions. It's easy for him to become the ProCycling pinata.

Thank you for injecting some sense into this thread. The shrill cries of the self-righteous do-nothings were getting a bit much for me.

 

[Jeremiah]

And yet...

Thank you for injecting some sense into this thread. The shrill cries of the self-righteous do-nothings were getting a bit much for me.

JV is a defender of Sky and the marginal gains bs.

 

[the big ring]

Forget bagging on him, or coming up with obtuse questions, we should all be stoked that he's actually interacting with our little band of lunatics.

Isn't that what we're all asking for?

Stoked why? I don't follow the sport because I love the DS's or team managers - do you?

I follow the sport because I actually ride a bike, and appreciate what other bike riders go through. And if I see them struggle, and push through when it hurts or when things are not going their way, I can empathise.

JV is not on my radar as someone to worship or get all giddy over because he deigns to answer the easier questions on some forum somewhere. Sheesh.

Anyone who comes onto a forum filled with people older and probably as experienced at LIFE as him and calls them "kiddies" is fair game for bagging too, imo.

 

[sniper]

Well, of course. If you want to talk Utopian.

I've pounded JV's *** full of sand on many occassion, but for me it comes down to picking your fights.

JV has no problem stating his goals (albeit with some problems of their being ennacted), but at least it's a voice crying out in the right direction.

The other managers and DSs should be called out. What have they done?

Why are we not (as diciples of the glorious 12) holding others' feet to the fire?

JV's an easy target because he's actually here. He actually answers questions. It's easy for him to become the ProCycling pinata.

Forget bagging on him, or coming up with obtuse questions, we should all be stoked that he's actually interacting with our little band of lunatics.

Isn't that what we're all asking for?

Why do you feel sorry for JV?
Public opinion is very favorable to JV and nothing happening in here will be able to change that.

He's considered the Knight of the Clean Table by 99.9% of all cycling fans and media.
He came in here to try and blindfold the remaining 0.1%, with mixed success.
That he's forced to take a bit of criticism in here from 5 or 6 posters won't give JV any sleepless nights.

 

[Cavalier]

He came in here to try and blindfold the remaining 0.1%, with mixed success.

I don't mind questioning the guy and what's going on, but comments like that really are just taking things to a ridiculous extreme. You can be suspicious of someone's motives without immediately asserting that their intention is solely evil. It's comments like yours which prompted his initial reaction to leave.

 

[sniper]

I don't mind questioning the guy and what's going on, but comments like that really are just taking things to a ridiculous extreme. You can be suspicious of someone's motives without immediately asserting that their intention is solely evil. It's comments like yours which prompted his initial reaction to leave.

Got it. So once JV comes in, the rules of the Clinic change. "Say anything, but please don't step on his toes."

Thanks for giving such weight and importance to my posts. I'm honored, though I'm afraid you're slightly overestimating the impact I and 5 to 6 other critics have on JV's daily program.

 

[sittingbison]

How do you define, many years? If it's that clear, we'll have an approximate number of years.

Embroiled in law suits?...

Obviously LA is a powerful scumbag. Here's the thing. You always do the right thing despite the consequences. Nobody said it was going to be easy. I understand why JV held back, but that is also why he finds himself in the situation he's in now.

JV was very frank upstream about talking to USADA from the get go, I think it was from 2004? Sorry I cant be bothered finding it, been reading the LA thread all day

It was also discussed at length upstream that Lance, being the vindictive sociopath he is, would have tried to destroy JV, like he did with Emma O'Reilly, Frankie Andreu, David Walsh, Betsy...it is now being revealed just how in cahoots Lance is with USAC and UCI, JV and his 120 employees at Slipstream would not have had a chance.

I think JV has been pragmatic rather than idealistic. Sometimes that is the only way to go (no matter how galling). If Lance falls now as seems likely (plus the corrupt criminals in UCI), don't be surprised if JV reveals a more idealistic side (as I think he did in the NYT op ed).

I completely agree with you as to why JV is in the position he is on now, but I'm not sure he could have done any different and still been in the game. At least he still IS in the game.

 

[Cavalier]

Got it. So once JV comes in, the rules of the Clinic change. "Say anything, but please don't step on his toes."

Thanks for giving such weight and importance to my posts. I'm honored, though I'm afraid you're slightly overestimating the impact I and 5 to 6 other critics have on JV's daily program.

You must have mistaken my point. Your posts have zero importance, but showing a little respect for someone doing what 99% of the pro peloton doesn't do and wouldn't do really wouldn't go astray, even if you don't like the message. I'm not in agreement with Vaughters on a lot of what he says or the timing with which he says it, but I'm pretty sure the last thing you could accuse him of is intentionally coming in here in an attempt to lie. That would just be stupid - he could achieve that accusation simply by not coming here and letting you make it.

My point was simple - question all you like, but base it on some form of actual reality rather than just yelling some obscure crap for the sake of being heard.

 

[Benotti69]

You must have mistaken my point. Your posts have zero importance, but showing a little respect for someone doing what 99% of the pro peloton doesn't do and wouldn't do really wouldn't go astray, even if you don't like the message. I'm not in agreement with Vaughters on a lot of what he says or the timing with which he says it, but I'm pretty sure the last thing you could accuse him of is intentionally coming in here in an attempt to lie. That would just be stupid - he could achieve that accusation simply by not coming here and letting you make it.

My point was simple - question all you like, but base it on some form of actual reality rather than just yelling some obscure crap for the sake of being heard.

How do you know JV is not doing what 99% of the peloton are doing? He says he isnt, but how do we know?

JV comes in here with hints and suggestions. So what? I'd rather he didn't bother as it does nothing except raise his profile as anti-doping. He sits on the fence and jumps to which ever side suits him. It is not possible to be truly anti-doping in the pro peloton because McQuaid would hound you out of the sport. How come JV is still there? Because what he says and what he does are not the same.

Vroomen gives more info in his blog than JV has in his career.

JV likes to wear the mantle of anti-doping but it is all the emporors new clothes. Praising Wiggins is similar to praising Armstrong. Riders who came from 100th+ in previous TdFs to win it later on different teams where the whole team crushed the peloton.

The clinic is largely based on hearsay, innuendo, joining dots with a small amount of fact thrown in. JV admitted to joining dots. So be careful of ctiricising posters of being obscure when JV is as obscure as any in here.

 

[Cavalier]

How do you know JV is not doing what 99% of the peloton are doing? He says he isnt, but how do we know?

I don't know, much the same as I don't know he's really not hiding secret leprechauns in his faeces. You're asking me to prove a negative.

*snip*How come JV is still there? Because what he says and what he does are not the same.

Yea, it's funny that you say that, because I would have thought that two successive articles confessing doping would have been an indicator that he would have been booted. Or that David Millar's recent UCI criticism would have resulted in the same. I mean, seriously, on what plane is your thought process that you think because someone's saying something he can't possibly be doing that. Do you actually think, that with all JV's public criticism of the UCI over the last few years, McQuaid wouldn't just boot him anyway if he wanted to? Seriously, think before you engage a conspiracy theory.

Vroomen gives more info in his blog than JV has in his career.

Vroomen's hardly been a basis for logical thought over the last few years.

JV likes to wear the mantle of anti-doping but it is all the emporors new clothes. Praising Wiggins is similar to praising Armstrong. Riders who came from 100th+ in previous TdFs to win it later on different teams where the whole team crushed the peloton.

I don't like his praise of Wiggins either, but since when does one comment suddenly mean he MUST be pro-doping? That's drawing a hell of a long bow. I've got friends who think Wiggins is clean/and a nice guy - I can disagree with them and their opinion without them suddenly being pro-doping.

The clinic is largely based on hearsay, innuendo, joining dots with a small amount of fact thrown in. JV admitted to joining dots. So be careful of ctiricising posters of being obscure when JV is as obscure as any in here.

There's a difference between connecting dots and openly accusing someone of deliberately coming in here (when they didn't need to) and lying in order to secure some sort of mythical brownie points from a crowd that the author himself admitted had next to no impact on him.

Critical thought doesn't require an entirely hostile attitude to the point it drives discussion away, that's all I'm saying. Be courteous, and perhaps you'll get more answers. It really isn't hard to be a decent human being.

 

[Mr.38%]

Got it. So once JV comes in, the rules of the Clinic change. "Say anything, but please don't step on his toes."

Thanks for giving such weight and importance to my posts. I'm honored, though I'm afraid you're slightly overestimating the impact I and 5 to 6 other critics have on JV's daily program.

No, it's JVs fault if he comes here and get's burned by some who I would qualify like Willy_Voet did a few posts up. It's also his own fault if he answers questions about other riders, suchs as Froome, AC and the post-Garmin Wiggins.

But it's completely stupid not to accept that he is dancing on the wire and therefore has to be incredibly careful with his words. Why not simply ask him again and accept if he does not answer the way you expect (want) him to?

It's also JVs fault if he not just frankly admits he cannot answer without putting himself/others/his team into danger, though. But I guess those freaky fundamentalists would jump on him anyways because he is an easy target.

 

[Benotti69]

I don't know, much the same as I don't know he's really not hiding secret leprechauns in his faeces. You're asking me to prove a negative.

So why accept what he is saying?

Yea, it's funny that you say that, because I would have thought that two successive articles confessing doping would have been an indicator that he would have been booted. Or that David Millar's recent UCI criticism would have resulted in the same. I mean, seriously, on what plane is your thought process that you think because someone's saying something he can't possibly be doing that. Do you actually think, that with all JV's public criticism of the UCI over the last few years, McQuaid wouldn't just boot him anyway if he wanted to? Seriously, think before you engage a conspiracy theory.

Easy to now criticise UCI when they are on a ledge about to fall into the abyss. Touching JV now would surely send them over.

Millar's anti-doping is pure PR fluff.

Vroomen's hardly been a basis for logical thought over the last few years.

Learnt more form him than JV.

I don't like his praise of Wiggins either, but since when does one comment suddenly mean he MUST be pro-doping? That's drawing a hell of a long bow. I've got friends who think Wiggins is clean/and a nice guy - I can disagree with them and their opinion without them suddenly being pro-doping.

When one praises obvious 'unbeleivable' performances one is praising the doped.

If your friends knew Wiggins doped and still praised him, they would automatically be prod oping. JV is not pro doping, but he is hardly anti-doping apart from his pr.

There's a difference between connecting dots and openly accusing someone of deliberately coming in here (when they didn't need to) and lying in order to secure some sort of mythical brownie points from a crowd that the author himself admitted had next to no impact on him.

I dont see what purpose JVs posts are accept to be aligning himself with here and enhance his nti-doping. He definitely provides very little information.

Critical thought doesn't require an entirely hostile attitude to the point it drives discussion away, that's all I'm saying. Be courteous, and perhaps you'll get more answers. It really isn't hard to be a decent human being.

This is pro cycling. I am not looking for answers from JV. Look how long it has taken him to admit to what everyone who knows anything about the sport already knew.

Plenty of people out there have provided the answers, Kimmage, Voet, Bassons, Walsh, Ballestre et al. JV is not amongst the list.

Accusations of indeceny are not warranted. Calling a spade a spade as i see it does not make me indecent.

JV is a big boy and can decide to defend himself, or throw his toys or ignore.

 

[sniper]

...

My point was simple - question all you like, but base it on some form of actual reality rather than just yelling some obscure crap for the sake of being heard.

my point was simpler: I bet JV isn't as worked up about my criticism as you are.

 

[sniper]

No, it's JVs fault if he comes here and get's burned by some who I would qualify like Willy_Voet did a few posts up. It's also his own fault if he answers questions about other riders, suchs as Froome, AC and the post-Garmin Wiggins.

But it's completely stupid not to accept that he is dancing on the wire and therefore has to be incredibly careful with his words. Why not simply ask him again and accept if he does not answer the way you expect (want) him to?

It's also JVs fault if he not just frankly admits he cannot answer without putting himself/others/his team into danger, though. But I guess those freaky fundamentalists would jump on him anyways because he is an easy target.

I'm baffled by this post, I must say.

So I should sweet-talk JV and in the meantime you can call me "stupid" and a "fundamentalist"?

JV is right not to reply to insults, and luckily I don't recall anybody insulting him here. In the meantime, you're of course obliged to insult me.

You're underestimating JV seriously: he doesn't need you to stand up for him, he's very capable of defending himself, as he's shown again and again in here with some very strong posts.

I suggest you either look for another forum or sign up for moderation if you're annoyed by how the clinic works.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

It's also JVs fault if he not just frankly admits he cannot answer without putting himself/others/his team into danger, though.

So we agree he is still part of the omerta.

Why come here if you cannot speak out? Why name an old man like Nunez by name and not the true criminals? That's quite hypocritical in my book.

I read in some thread JV mentioned Contador being named as the best rider ever tested by Inigo San Millan, team doc at Garmin with a very interesting past with regards the teams he was with. Saunier Duval/ONCE/Astana/Vitalicio Seguros. Really, squicky clean teams. But, we are led to believe Inigo is pro - clean cycling:

His two-year deal with Garmin-Transitions will mark a return to the service of professional cycling teams after a two-year hiatus. San Millán has previously worked with Spanish teams including ONCE and Saunier-Duval, as well as Astana in 2007. While a number of his former employers have been beset by doping scandals, San Millán is widely regarded as an exponent of a clean cycling. He cites US-based Garmin's mentality and acceptance of his methods as a primary reason for his return to the sport

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/who-is-dr-inigo-san-millan

Why leave out his position at Vitalicio? One of the most idiotic doped up teams of the last decades? Well done Cycling News!
Velocity didn't leave that out:
http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/inigo-san-millan

So, just connecting some dots: Lim, San Millan. Okay, never convicted but an air of suspicion or not? Or can we not compare these two with the two at SKY nowadays?

I am interested in JV's clean power numbers of 1995 though.

 

[sniper]

So we agree he is still part of the omerta.

Why come here if you cannot speak out? Why name an old man like Nunez by name and not the true criminals? That's quite hypocritical in my book.

I read in some thread JV mentioned Contador being named as the best rider ever tested by Inigo San Millan, team doc at Garmin with a very interesting past with regards the teams he was with. Saunier Duval/ONCE/Astana/Vitalicio Seguros. Really, squicky clean teams. But, we are led to believe Inigo is pro - clean cycling:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/who-is-dr-inigo-san-millan

Why leave out his position at Vitalicio? One of the most idiotic doped up teams of the last decades? Well done Cycling News!
Velocity didn't leave that out:
http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/inigo-san-millan

So, just connecting some dots: Lim, San Millan. Okay, never convicted but an air of suspicion or not? Or can we not compare these two with the two at SKY nowadays?

I am interested in JV's clean power numbers of 1995 though.

great post. thanks for the heads-up on San Millan.

 

[Mr.38%]

I'm baffled by this post, I must say.

So I should sweet-talk JV and in the meantime you can call me "stupid" and a "fundamentalist"?

JV is right not to reply to insults, and luckily I don't recall anybody insulting him here. In the meantime, you're of course obliged to insult me.

You're underestimating JV seriously: he doesn't need you to stand up for him, he's very capable of defending himself, as he's shown again and again in here with some very strong posts.

I suggest you either look for another forum or sign up for moderation if you're annoyed by how the clinic works.

I called you stupid (in a rhetoric way, as I understand The Clinic pretty well...) because it does not add anything to directly attack him again and again. It won't change anything in the system. And if he is indeed a bold liar, playing with all of us White Hats over here it won't change the least bit either.

And "those" = not you but several others.

 

[sniper]

I called you stupid (in a rhetoric way, as I understand The Clinic pretty well...) because it does not add anything to directly attack him again and again. It won't change anything in the system. And if he is indeed a bold liar, playing with all those White Hats over here it won't change the least bit either.

And "those" = not you but several others.

thanks for clarifying!
in that case, sorry for overreacting to your previous post.

 

[hrotha]

JV's an easy target because he's actually here. He actually answers questions. It's easy for him to become the ProCycling pinata.

Forget bagging on him, or coming up with obtuse questions, we should all be stoked that he's actually interacting with our little band of lunatics.

Isn't that what we're all asking for?

I'm a bit confused by this post. Why would we ask for him or other DSs to come here if it were to refrain from asking those "obtuse" (which I take to actually mean "hard" or "pointed" here) questions? Isn't that the whole point?

 

[RichWalk]

I'm a bit confused by this post. Why would we ask for him or other DSs to come here if it were to refrain from asking those "obtuse" (which I take to actually mean "hard" or "pointed" here) questions? Isn't that the whole point?

+1 which begs the question, why if you are clearly constrained by various factors, many legal, come on a site like this? Is he testing his *values* or seeing how far they actually hold up against some real scrutiny?

 

[Benotti69]

+1 which begs the question, why if you are clearly constrained by various factors, many legal, come on a site like this? Is he testing his *values* or seeing how far they actually hold up against some real scrutiny?

JV comes here for a multitude of reasons. Some of the above no doubt are included.

 

[roundabout]

When did he register/make the first post?

I think he wanted to lower people's eyebrows post-2009 Tour. Would that be right?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Forget bagging on him, or coming up with obtuse questions, we should all be stoked that he's actually interacting with our little band of lunatics.

Isn't that what we're all asking for?

Emphatically no. I'm asking for a Pro sport where a rider doesn't have to actually consider doping. I don't care who does/doesn't show up in this forum from the money-side of the sport.

Some credit must be given to JV's program and Garmin for at minimum, keeping the message out there that his program would rather do without doping.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

How do you know JV is not doing what 99% of the peloton are doing? He says he isnt, but how do we know?

JV comes in here with hints and suggestions. So what? I'd rather he didn't bother as it does nothing except raise his profile as anti-doping. He sits on the fence and jumps to which ever side suits him. It is not possible to be truly anti-doping in the pro peloton because McQuaid would hound you out of the sport. How come JV is still there? Because what he says and what he does are not the same.

Vroomen gives more info in his blog than JV has in his career.

JV likes to wear the mantle of anti-doping but it is all the emporors new clothes. Praising Wiggins is similar to praising Armstrong. Riders who came from 100th+ in previous TdFs to win it later on different teams where the whole team crushed the peloton.

The clinic is largely based on hearsay, innuendo, joining dots with a small amount of fact thrown in. JV admitted to joining dots. So be careful of ctiricising posters of being obscure when JV is as obscure as any in here.

So you would prefer he doesn't bother - so you prefer omertà than telling his own story, interesting.

 

[sniper]

So you would prefer he doesn't bother - so you prefer omertà than telling his own story, interesting.

Doc, the thread has developed in the meantime and some points have been raised that remain unaddressed by JV and his unconditional supporters (to which I count you for the sake of simplicity)
So instead of spinning benotti's post, why don'T you share your opinion about Fearless Greg Lemond's post on San Millan? (one page back).
Or what do you think of JV's marginal gains talk?