Kim Jong-Il is dead.

[BroDeal]

Those are NASA pictures, why would I trust them, USA hates N. Korea. Also those stats are from USA, not official.
And how about this, no one is without job in North Korea. How many poor people are there in USA? How many unemployed? And americans are not brainwashed, they have democracy? What kind of democracy is to have only 2 parties?

OK, I won't jude you for being an 'American puppet', but some nations have pride and honor.

There could be a profession in this for you. Baghdad Bob is out of the job market and Pyongyang Dennis does not have quite the same ring to it, but the North Koreans have to take what they can get. Plus, if you do a good job, you'll get an extra ration of grass and leaves for supper.

 

[craig1985]

I'm impressed that the BBC is able to get emails from people in North Korea when the Beeb asked for people's reactions to the passing of Kim Jong-Il. You would think the BBC would be the one site that is blocked.

 

[The Hitch]

I'm impressed that the BBC is able to get emails from people in North Korea when the Beeb asked for people's reactions to the passing of Kim Jong-Il. You would think the BBC would be the one site that is blocked.

Every site is blocked since they have their own "intranet" rather than the world wide "internet", but it seems one or two heroes have managed to connect to the rest of the world.

 

[Maxiton]

Every site is blocked since they have their own "intranet" rather than the world wide "internet", but it seems one or two heroes have managed to connect to the rest of the world.

I haven't read the emails, but I don't see how anyone could trust that unless maybe the emails say something like, "Kim Jong-Il was a fat, sad idiot. We suspect we are living a nightmare. Get us out of here, please."

 

[The Hitch]

I haven't read the emails, but I don't see how anyone could trust that unless maybe the emails say something like, "Kim Jong-Il was a fat, sad idiot. We suspect we are living a nightmare. Get us out of here, please."

trust what? The emails, or the intranet thing?

 

[Maxiton]

trust what? The emails, or the intranet thing?

The emails from North Korea.

 

[Maxiton]

Someone here earlier wrote that this death was a shameful lapse for the Western/South Korean intelligence community, which knew nothing of it. That comment, sadly, appears to have disappeared down the rabbit hole. Too bad, because the New York Times has come to the same conclusion:

In Kim’s Death, an Extensive Intelligence Failure

 

[Thomsena]

They are real.

No. No they are not.

 

[Moondance]

Substitute communist propaganda with corporate propaganda and it sounds remarkably like America.

Orwell was wrong. An authoritarian state is not needed to control the population. The propaganda from a supposedly free press is just as effective, maybe more so because the people believe that they are free.

So if I understand your point, because there are corporations who, what, peddle influence in politics and advertise their products in the media, you do not have freedom? In fact you are living under Stalinism by a different name?

Is your objection based on the fact that that you disagree with the capitalist/consumerist economic model being how your societies organizes itself, or is it that you think that in the specific case of the United States capitalism has morphed into some sort of corporate oligarchy?

 

[python]

So if I understand your point, because there are corporations who, what, peddle influence in politics and advertise their products in the media, you do not have freedom? In fact you are living under Stalinism by a different name?

Is your objection based on the fact that that you disagree with the capitalist/consumerist economic model being how your societies organizes itself, or is it that you think that in the specific case of the United States capitalism has morphed into some sort of corporate oligarchy?

imo brodeal might have referred to the bolded and is probably right...

 

[Moondance]

Those are NASA pictures, why would I trust them, USA hates N. Korea. Also those stats are from USA, not official.
And how about this, no one is without job in North Korea. How many poor people are there in USA? How many unemployed? And americans are not brainwashed, they have democracy? What kind of democracy is to have only 2 parties?

OK, I won't jude you for being an 'American puppet', but some nations have pride and honor.

Well, having two parties is not, by any means, a given. It's not enshrined anywhere in American law that there can only be two major parties. It's just that Americans tend to vote for only one of two political parties. The fact that they have a first-past-the-post electoral system tends towards two-party democracy, this is a rather well established fact. That could however be changed. I tend to favor proportional electoral systems myself personally, and would think it a good thing if America changed it. However that does not mean that there is no democracy.

As for being an American puppet. Well, the way I see it, having been born a citizens of the Netherlands, one of America's most loyal puppets, has allowed me to grow up in one of the wealthiest countries on earth, one of the country's with the highest degrees of personal freedom on earth, with the freedom to travel where I want to, study whatever I wish at university, read whatever book I want to, write whatever I wished to write, do whatever job I wish to, start whatever business I would wish to start, worship whichever God I freely wished to worship, or freedom not to worship should I so choose, freedom to buy wish products I wish to buy. I could go on.

I'm one of the healthiest people in the world, by virtue of my having been born in this American puppet state. I'm one of the happiest people on earth. I will live, on average, among the longest lives on this earth. I live in a country with relatively low poverty, and low unemployment, little to no government corruption, and relatively low crime. I'm safe, happy, healthy and prosperous. I can take pride and honor in that at least.

I tend not to take all those things for granted myself, and remember strongly that it was only because of American, as well as Russian, British, Canadian, efforts in WWII that I am free from fascism at all. And that during the Cold War America protected my tiny, puny, little country from being taken over from an altogether different form of totalitarianism, which would have also sought to take freedom and prosperity from my country.

And, just perhaps, I might not mind being an 'American puppet', not because I don't have any honor or pride, but because I have a sincere love and admiration of the United States, and tend to support the, on-the-balance, positive role the United States plays in this world. And that when the Netherlands acts, in its modest way, in furthering American goals, we indirectly further our own.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Well, having two parties is not, by any means, a given. It's not enshrined anywhere in American law that there can only be two major parties. It's just that Americans tend to vote for only one of two political parties. The fact that they have a first-past-the-post electoral system tends towards two-party democracy, this is a rather well established fact. That could however be changed. I tend to favor proportional electoral systems myself personally, and would think it a good thing if America changed it. However that does not mean that there is no democracy.

As for being an American puppet. Well, the way I see it, having been born a citizens of the Netherlands, one of America's most loyal puppets, has allowed me to grow up in one of the wealthiest countries on earth, one of the country's with the highest degrees of personal freedom on earth, with the freedom to travel where I want to, study whatever I wish at university, read whatever book I want to, write whatever I wished to write, do whatever job I wish to, start whatever business I would wish to start, worship whichever God I freely wished to worship, or freedom not to worship should I so choose, freedom to buy wish products I wish to buy. I could go on.

I'm one of the healthiest people in the world, by virtue of my having been born in this American puppet state. I'm one of the happiest people on earth. I will live, on average, among the longest lives on this earth. I live in a country with relatively low poverty, and low unemployment, little to no government corruption, and relatively low crime. I'm safe, happy, healthy and prosperous. I can take pride and honor in that at least.

I tend not to take all those things for granted myself, and remember strongly that it was only because of American, as well as Russian, British, Canadian, efforts in WWII that I am free from fascism at all. And that during the Cold War America protected my tiny, puny, little country from being taken over from an altogether different form of totalitarianism, which would have also sought to take freedom and prosperity from my country.

And, just perhaps, I might not mind being an 'American puppet', not because I don't have any honor or pride, but because I have a sincere love and admiration of the United States, and tend to support the, on-the-balance, positive role the United States plays in this world. And that when the Netherlands acts, in its modest way, in furthering American goals, we indirectly further our own.

Lets all sing the Star Spangled Banner after that speech. > Only screwing with ya Moondance!

 

[craig1985]

Hitch, this is what I was talking about:

I'm in Pyongyang. The silence was broken by what seemed to be gunfire near the Kumsusan Memorial Palace. This is very unusual. Some people are on standby because of elevated troop movement within Pyongyang. There are several extraordinary things happening in Pyongyang. Anon, Pyongyang, North Korea

I am very wary of what the future will bring. There are a lot of people looking to take advantage of this and it will be very dangerous for a while until everyone sees which way to lean. Kim, South Pyongyang, North Korea

I have lived in northern Korea for 33 years and regardless of Kim Jong-il's reputation for repression of the people he was no fool. He paid close attention to international happenings. All we can do now is hope his son is as intelligent as his father. Rupert, Pyongyang, North Korea

In their article when they reported that Kim Jong-Il had died, they had a bit at the bottom for people in North Korea to send in their thoughts. I'm not joking.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16247168

 

[BroDeal]

So if I understand your point, because there are corporations who, what, peddle influence in politics and advertise their products in the media, you do not have freedom? In fact you are living under Stalinism by a different name?

Is your objection based on the fact that that you disagree with the capitalist/consumerist economic model being how your societies organizes itself, or is it that you think that in the specific case of the United States capitalism has morphed into some sort of corporate oligarchy?

What I am saying is that the U.S. is controlled by a what is effectively an aristocracy made up of corporate and politcal elites that promote an agenda through propaganda that is just as effective as anything Orwell ever imagined.

 

[The Hitch]

Well, having two parties is not, by any means, a given. It's not enshrined anywhere in American law that there can only be two major parties. It's just that Americans tend to vote for only one of two political parties. The fact that they have a first-past-the-post electoral system tends towards two-party democracy, this is a rather well established fact. That could however be changed. I tend to favor proportional electoral systems myself personally, and would think it a good thing if America changed it. However that does not mean that there is no democracy.

As for being an American puppet. Well, the way I see it, having been born a citizens of the Netherlands, one of America's most loyal puppets, has allowed me to grow up in one of the wealthiest countries on earth, one of the country's with the highest degrees of personal freedom on earth, with the freedom to travel where I want to, study whatever I wish at university, read whatever book I want to, write whatever I wished to write, do whatever job I wish to, start whatever business I would wish to start, worship whichever God I freely wished to worship, or freedom not to worship should I so choose, freedom to buy wish products I wish to buy. I could go on.

I'm one of the healthiest people in the world, by virtue of my having been born in this American puppet state. I'm one of the happiest people on earth. I will live, on average, among the longest lives on this earth. I live in a country with relatively low poverty, and low unemployment, little to no government corruption, and relatively low crime. I'm safe, happy, healthy and prosperous. I can take pride and honor in that at least.

I tend not to take all those things for granted myself, and remember strongly that it was only because of American, as well as Russian, British, Canadian, efforts in WWII that I am free from fascism at all. And that during the Cold War America protected my tiny, puny, little country from being taken over from an altogether different form of totalitarianism, which would have also sought to take freedom and prosperity from my country.

And, just perhaps, I might not mind being an 'American puppet', not because I don't have any honor or pride, but because I have a sincere love and admiration of the United States, and tend to support the, on-the-balance, positive role the United States plays in this world. And that when the Netherlands acts, in its modest way, in furthering American goals, we indirectly further our own.

well written post moondance, but we have to make 1 major correction.

I tend not to take all those things for granted myself, and remember strongly that it was only because of American and Polish, as well as Russian, British, Canadian, efforts in WWII that I am free from fascism at all.

That btw is not a joke, nor nationalistic, but a necessary reminder of a people that fought as long, as hard and whose contribution was as significant, as any allied power.

No. No they are not.

How do you know. If people will throw themselves into a fire to save a picture, will they not cry when the real deal departs?

 

[Thomsena]

How do you know. If people will throw themselves into a fire to save a picture, will they not cry when the real deal departs?

There's a reason why it's exactly these pictures that are public for the world. They are forced and it's staged.

 

[The Hitch]

There's a reason why it's exactly these pictures that are public for the world. They are forced and it's staged.

I don't quite understand the logic behind that.

They are fake because they were released to the world.

But what if they were real, then they would not be released to the world?
Would it not be easier to film people, who really felt the pain, crying, rather than force others into doing it?

Again, how do you know they were fake.

 

[El Pistolero]

There's a reason why it's exactly these pictures that are public for the world. They are forced and it's staged.

They're not fake. North Koreans are indoctrinated from early age to worship their Great Leader. They see him as a demi-god. To see someone of that status die must cause them immense pain.

The God of the Jews is an awful God as well, yet they still worship him. It's called Indoctrination.

Ps: if you're wondering why I'm singling the Jewish god out, it's because they only consider the Old Testament to be canon. The God of the Old Testament is a vengeful God. The God of the New Testament is a totally different God, one that is not described as vengeful or sadistic. As for Allah, I haven't read the Quran, so I wouldn't be able to give a correct opinion on that.

 

[python]

If you want to understand what’s going on and likely to happen in north korea after the 'great leaders's' death, read this scholarly article.

A North Korean Spring ?
http://twq.com/12winter/docs/12winter_Cha_Anderson.pdf

it’s longish but is void of media hype, hyperbola and the us/western-style propaganda. rather full of rarely cited facts denuding the regime and cool analysis.

 

[DenisMenchov]

Well, having two parties is not, by any means, a given. It's not enshrined anywhere in American law that there can only be two major parties. It's just that Americans tend to vote for only one of two political parties. The fact that they have a first-past-the-post electoral system tends towards two-party democracy, this is a rather well established fact. That could however be changed. I tend to favor proportional electoral systems myself personally, and would think it a good thing if America changed it. However that does not mean that there is no democracy.

As for being an American puppet. Well, the way I see it, having been born a citizens of the Netherlands, one of America's most loyal puppets, has allowed me to grow up in one of the wealthiest countries on earth, one of the country's with the highest degrees of personal freedom on earth, with the freedom to travel where I want to, study whatever I wish at university, read whatever book I want to, write whatever I wished to write, do whatever job I wish to, start whatever business I would wish to start, worship whichever God I freely wished to worship, or freedom not to worship should I so choose, freedom to buy wish products I wish to buy. I could go on.

I'm one of the healthiest people in the world, by virtue of my having been born in this American puppet state. I'm one of the happiest people on earth. I will live, on average, among the longest lives on this earth. I live in a country with relatively low poverty, and low unemployment, little to no government corruption, and relatively low crime. I'm safe, happy, healthy and prosperous. I can take pride and honor in that at least.

I tend not to take all those things for granted myself, and remember strongly that it was only because of American, as well as Russian, British, Canadian, efforts in WWII that I am free from fascism at all. And that during the Cold War America protected my tiny, puny, little country from being taken over from an altogether different form of totalitarianism, which would have also sought to take freedom and prosperity from my country.

And, just perhaps, I might not mind being an 'American puppet', not because I don't have any honor or pride, but because I have a sincere love and admiration of the United States, and tend to support the, on-the-balance, positive role the United States plays in this world. And that when the Netherlands acts, in its modest way, in furthering American goals, we indirectly further our own.

I do realise that all, but do you think that you would't be able to do some of those if there were not USA?
Also you forgot to say that you live in a country that was convicted for a masacre(In Indonesia). I will never forget BRAVE Dutch PEACEKEEPERS in Bosna and Herzegovina forcing inocent people to death buses, so you are not that pink yourselfs.

Well done Dutch colonialist, I think N. Korea would be much better state if they exploited some random countries resources.

 

[El Pistolero]

I do realise that all, but do you think that you would't be able to do some of those if there were not USA?
Also you forgot to say that you live in a country that was convicted for a masacre. I will never forget BRAVE Dutch PEACEKEEPERS in Bosna and Herzegovina forcing inocent people to death buses, so you are not that pink yourselfs.

That wasn't really their fault, more of the particular organisation behind that army

If you wan't to make the Dutch look bad based on their history then look no further than their slave trade and colonization projects.

 

[The Hitch]

Justinian I was Byzantine emperor for 38 years, but he still was an incompetent buffoon and arguably the most over-rated person in history.
.

And yet it was only an act of God that stopped him from replacing Alexander the Great most important man in history.

 

[DenisMenchov]

That wasn't really their fault, more of the particular organisation behind that army

If you wan't to make the Dutch look bad based on their history then look no further than their slave trade and colonization projects.

I can go to this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia
27 vs 1 Well done, really brave.

 

[The Hitch]

I think N. Korea would be much better state if they exploited some random countries resources.

No, the dictator and his friends would just have more money to spend. Everyone else would be in exactly the same state.

Also you forgot to say that you live in a country that was convicted for a masacre(In Indonesia).

The entire country was convicted?

Well done Dutch colonialist,

Thats an extremely offensive and baseless accusation.

 

[El Pistolero]

No, the dictator and his friends would just have more money to spend. Everyone else would be in exactly the same state.



The entire country was convicted?



Thats an extremely offensive and baseless accusation.

To be honest, some of these Balkan states have messed up school educations that can "brainwash" someone into saying stuff like this. You don't want to know what they teach Macedonians about Alexander the Great and Greeks