Kim Jong-Il is dead.

[Amsterhammer]

Also you forgot to say that you live in a country that was convicted for a masacre(In Indonesia). I will never forget BRAVE Dutch PEACEKEEPERS in Bosna and Herzegovina forcing inocent people to death buses, so you are not that pink yourselfs.

Well done Dutch colonialist, I think N. Korea would be much better state if they exploited some random countries resources.

Whoa, fella! I have no idea where you are from or what your particular agenda is, and apologies for going totally off topic, but I can't let this go by.

First of all, the country of The Netherlands was not 'convicted' of anything by anyone.The 400 NATO Dutchbat 'peacekeepers' in Srebrenica were massively outnumbered and eventually overrun by Mladic's murderous Bosnian Serbs and Arkan's murderous Serb mercenaries. With hindsight (always a wonderful thing,) perhaps it would have been more honorable for them to fight to the death in a hopeless situation, though I doubt if such futility would have saved the lives of any of the Bosnians subsequently murdered by Serbs!. The Dutch troops were simply abandoned by NATO for spurious political reasons and left to their fate.

Yes, this horrific episode has left deep marks on Dutch society and there is without doubt a deep sense of guilt about what happened as a result of Srebrenica being overrun. Nobody knew at the time that the buses were taking people to their deaths and the Dutch did not "force" people onto the buses.

By all means, criticize the Dutch for their colonial history and for outrages committed in Indonesia, but this attack of yours is completely out of order.

 

[Amsterhammer]

I can go to this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia
27 vs 1 Well done, really brave.

You're bringing up the NATO bombing as something to hold against the Dutch? How about laying the blame where it belongs - Slobo's ethnic suppression and cleansing of all non-Serbs? I suppose the fact that the Serbs have been the traditionally dominant Balkan bullies and killers for centuries has nothing to do with the misery of recent decades?

In other Kim-related news: does anyone happen to know what the North's objections are to the displaying of Christmas lights at or near the border? Is it just because they don't have any?

 

[El Pistolero]

You're bringing up the NATO bombing as something to hold against the Dutch? How about laying the blame where it belongs - Slobo's ethnic suppression and cleansing of all non-Serbs? I suppose the fact that the Serbs have been the traditionally dominant Balkan bullies and killers for centuries has nothing to do with the misery of recent decades?

In other Kim-related news: does anyone happen to know what the North's objections are to the displaying of Christmas lights at or near the border? Is it just because they don't have any?

That's bull****. First of all, the traditionally dominant Balkan bullies for centuries were the Greeks, even under Ottoman rule they had a lot of power(Look up the Rum Milleti).

The Serbs aren't any more guilty of the nationalistic wars in the Balkan than the Greeks, Romanians, Ottomans(Turks if you will), Macedonians, Bulgarians, Russians, Austria-Hungary, etcetera

Also, the Medieval kingdom of Serbia(which had its peak under Stephen Uroš IV Dušan) is not the same as modern Serbia, even if they believe so in Serbia. Besides, the Bulgarian empire was just as impressive in conquering. Before nationalism came to the fore in the 19th century there weren't this many problems between the different language or religious groups in the Balkan. These strictly defined nations in the Balkan are just modern creations, they didn't exist for "centuries" like you claim, ethnic groups were scattered all over the Balkan. There was hardly any difference between Croats and Serbs before the 19th century! Good luck trying to distinguish between Croats and Serbs before spread of nationalism in the Balkan.

German nationalism is to blame for the situation in the Balkan. That's laying the blame where it belongs

 

[Amsterhammer]

That's bull****. First of all, the traditionally dominant Balkan bullies for centuries were the Greeks, even under Ottoman rule they had a lot of power(Look up the Rum Milleti).

The Serbs aren't any more guilty of the nationalistic wars in the Balkan than the Greeks, Romanians, Ottomans(Turks if you will), Macedonians, Bulgarians, etcetera

Also, the Medieval kingdom of Serbia(which had its peak under Stephen Uroš IV Dušan) is not the same as modern Serbia, even if they believe so in Serbia. Before nationalism came to the fore in the 19th century there weren't this many problems between the different language groups in the Balkan. These strictly defined nations in the Balkan are just modern creations, they didn't exist for "centuries" like you claim. There was hardly any difference between Croats and Serbs before the 19th century!

Perhaps I could have been more precise. I should have said "the traditionally dominant bullies of the peoples of ex-Jugoslavia". Is that better? The peoples you mention in your reply above have, as far as I am aware, nothing to do with the genocide perpetrated mainly (though not exclusively) by the Serbs in recent decades, or is there some secret involvement by Greeks, Turks, Romanians, Bulgarians, etc that I am not aware of?

We were discussing relatively recent history; the medieval kingdom of Serbia is irrelevant (to everyone except Serbs) as far as that goes. Read what I wrote without adding your own interpretation - I never made any "claim" about Balkan nations existing for "centuries". I said that the Serbs have been the dominant bullies, and that is an historical fact

 

[El Pistolero]

I quote:

"I suppose the fact that the Serbs have been the traditionally dominant Balkan bullies and killers for centuries has nothing to do with the misery of recent decades"

And I'm afraid the Medieval kingdom of Serbia is not irrelevant. Modern Serbs wanted their borders to be like the kingdom of Serbia under the rule of Stephen Uroš IV Dušan.

The Bulgarians on the other hand wanted their modern borders to be like how they were under the Bulgarian empire. Then the Greeks wanted to extend their borders to include areas where the Greek language was the predominant language.

Are you starting to see the problem with this? If not, look at some of the maps of these Medieval kingdoms and you'll see the extent of the problem.

Bulgarian empire:

Serbian empire:

But of course these Medieval states are irrelevant to explain the causes of the nationalistic wars of the 19th-20th century in the Balkan

And here's a map that shows the dominant languages in the Balkan(under the Ottoman empire at the eve of its downfall):

As you can see, all these things overlap with each other and that was one of the reasons for the fighting and killing. Greece at its independence had a much smaller territory than they have nowadays.

 

[Amsterhammer]

We need to stop hijacking the Kim is dead topic.

Blaming the Germans works for me, let's leave it at that in this topic.

 

[jens_attacks]

i've seen those mourning,bittch asz crying videos,what can i say,i lost my hope in humanity some time ago.i hope they will be nuked sooner or later,same with iran.even if now it's kind of late.i wish somebody could wipe out nazi germany until 1930,we can't take any risk with psycho people.
but if they didn't take any action when that happened:

i doubt they will ever take.until it's too late






as for the serbs yep the most nationalistic nation from the balkans by far.nationalism shows how dumb people are,and yes serbs were and are at the top.who the hell cares about your kosovo,go and get laid,have fun with the friends smoke some kush.or hey let's just hate people.it worked for centuries

 

[Christian]

i hope they will be nuked sooner or later,same with iran.even if now it's kind of late.i wish somebody could wipe out nazi germany until 1930,we can't take any risk with psycho people.

So let me get this straight - your solution is to "wipe out" and "nuke" all the "psycho people"?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

i've seen those mourning,bittch asz crying videos,what can i say,i lost my hope in humanity some time ago.i hope they will be nuked sooner or later,same with iran.even if now it's kind of late.i wish somebody could wipe out nazi germany until 1930,we can't take any risk with psycho people.
but if they didn't take any action when that happened:

i doubt they will ever take.until it's too late






as for the serbs yep the most nationalistic nation from the balkans by far.nationalism shows how dumb people are,and yes serbs were and are at the top.who the hell cares about your kosovo,go and get laid,have fun with the friends smoke some kush.or hey let's just hate people.it worked for centuries

lol. El Loco thats great

 

[The Hitch]

I quote:

"I suppose the fact that the Serbs have been the traditionally dominant Balkan bullies and killers for centuries has nothing to do with the misery of recent decades"

lol, schooled.

 

[Thomsena]

I don't quite understand the logic behind that.

They are fake because they were released to the world.

But what if they were real, then they would not be released to the world?
Would it not be easier to film people, who really felt the pain, crying, rather than force others into doing it?

Again, how do you know they were fake.

I'm not saying there aren't many North Koreans who aren't sad. They are brainwashed from birth to worship their great leader. But the ones chosen in the clips have just been forced and staged it. We have a couple of jounalists who have been in North Korea making af documentary and this was exactly what they said. If they are not necessarily fond of the great leader they better have to hide it since it would mean, as you already metioned yourself, jail or even death penalty. The scenes where the people completely exaggerated cried their lungs out were just yet another way of showing the rest of the world how 'appreciated' Kim was by the people and removing any doubt we could possibly have.

 

[jens_attacks]

So let me get this straight - your solution is to "wipe out" and "nuke" all the "psycho people"?

tell me your solutions please.tell me how chamberlain stopped the nazi germany lol

"here i have it.hitler promised me he will be a good boy and he will eat his cereals.he even put it on paper."

later,1 september 1939:

epic fail mr chamberlain

 

[Christian]

tell me your solutions please.tell me how chamberlain stopped the nazi germany lol

I'm just saying threatening to wipe out and nuke psycho people who are threatening to wipe out and nuke others sounds kind of ... psycho.

 

[jens_attacks]

I'm just saying threatening to wipe out and nuke psycho people who are threatening to wipe out and nuke others sounds kind of ... psycho.

if you say so it must be like that.don't care too much anyway,i won't argue about lil kim,politics,crazy serbs and things like that on the internet.

 

[Moondance]

well written post moondance, but we have to make 1 major correction.



That btw is not a joke, nor nationalistic, but a necessary reminder of a people that fought as long, as hard and whose contribution was as significant, as any allied power.

Most certainly a good correction, and a serious omission on my part. The Dutch would do well to remember the heroic efforts of the 1st Polish Armored Division better than they already do, myself included.

 

[Maxiton]

I'm not saying there aren't many North Koreans who aren't sad. They are brainwashed from birth to worship their great leader. But the ones chosen in the clips have just been forced and staged it. We have a couple of jounalists who have been in North Korea making af documentary and this was exactly what they said. If they are not necessarily fond of the great leader they better have to hide it since it would mean, as you already metioned yourself, jail or even death penalty. The scenes where the people completely exaggerated cried their lungs out were just yet another way of showing the rest of the world how 'appreciated' Kim was by the people and removing any doubt we could possibly have.

"It's a terrible mixture of fear, terror and apprehension about the future, mass hysteria and possibly genuine grief as well.

"It's very difficult to know the reality and I think we'll never know the reality. There are huge cultural barriers anyway and then you have to remember this is a regime where everything that isn't forbidden is compulsory, so it's difficult to know what their state of mind really is."

More here.

 

[DenisMenchov]

You people seem to miss the point, I was only saying that Dutch are not as good as Moondance was trying to represent them. Neither it is good to laugh at someone else. In this particular case North Korea. I never ever said anything about Serbia, or Yugoslavia. Haven't mention Serbian people nor Kosovo, but you brouth it out. Considering that I know more about my history than you do, and that this is not history class, I'm not going to argue with you.

 

[DenisMenchov]

And what the hell is wrong with you in the Netherlands

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mFte51aAds&feature=player_embedded

 

[BroDeal]

You people seem to miss the point, I was only saying that Dutch are not as good as Moondance was trying to represent them. Neither it is good to laugh at someone else. In this particular case North Korea.

If you can't laugh at North Korea then what can you laugh about? The country is a joke. The leaders have been cartoon characters.

Give that man on the right a cat to carry around with him.

 

[DenisMenchov]

If you can't laugh at North Korea then what can you laugh about? The country is a joke. The leaders have been cartoon characters.

Give that man on the right a cat to carry around with him.

Give Obama banana, give Merkel mustaches, give Sarkozy a chair to stand on, give Berlusconi a young girl, give van Rompey some intelligence, really great liders.

 

[Rouetheday]

And what the hell is wrong with you in the Netherlands

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mFte51aAds&feature=player_embedded

Agreed. Why can't they have the simple human decency to kill a man before they eat his flesh, like they do in your country, Denis?

 

[BroDeal]

I think we may have found the only man in the world who is not an automaton indoctrinated from birth who will defend North Korea.

 

[Tank Engine]

If you want to understand what’s going on and likely to happen in north korea after the 'great leaders's' death, read this scholarly article.

A North Korean Spring ?
http://twq.com/12winter/docs/12winter_Cha_Anderson.pdf

it’s longish but is void of media hype, hyperbola and the us/western-style propaganda. rather full of rarely cited facts denuding the regime and cool analysis.

Some good points in the article. Kim the younger will probably have to assert his authority pretty quickly due to the traditional respect for elders.

It's impossible to say what's going on below the surface. I'm sure there are those who do not question the leadership (a position strengthened by long national service) and those that have no love of the leadership, but hide that since everything is so controlled that they do not know who to trust, so no opposition can form. It is possible that one spark could set off a whole chain reaction.

Unfortunately, I think if there is any change in power in the near future, it will be taken by someone at the top of the structure, who won't want anything to change.

 

[Martin318is]

Well....
there is CERTAINLY a lot of ongoing discussion of Kim Jong il and North Korea in the last 24hours...

Dutch history.
Serb History
Nazi History
Neville Chamberlaine?

Guys, stay get back onto the topic. I will decide shortly whether to move those posts to another thread or just delete them..

 

[craig1985]

You should move them to another thread as I think it warrants some discussion on it.